Men Still Control Language

Men Still Control Language

I am aiming to begin a serious discussion about this statement. Literally, this thought just came to me within the last few minutes.

Is this statement generally (objectively) true or false? Give me explicit, in-depth reasons of how and why.

Personally, I am under the impression that this statement is true, but I don’t exactly know how and why yet–I would like to see what other people think first.

P.S. Women, you are not allowed to post unless you have something extremely relevant, logical, and reasonable to contribute on a very advanced level. =;

(Sorry, looks like you won’t pass the standards, lol) :laughing: :evilfun:

I’m curious for someone to elaborate on what is meant by “men still control language” before I attempt at an argument…

Yeah, I mean does anybody really control language?

I’m curious for someone to elaborate on what is meant by language. Do you mean by this vocabulary, pronunciation, parts of speech, semiotics? Do you only want a gender analysis, and not want class or race or weather analysis? Is a partial answer allowed, for instance a division into zones of control (in Japanese)? Are you asking only about the Angloshere, American spoken English…(Hinglish, Konglish, Thinglish)? Please elaborate; for instance human semiotics may very well be semi-Timeless, grammar is increadibly fixed even over vast distances and spaces; vocabulary, usage and pronunciation are very fluid. There are very deep grammatical differences between languages that are snared up in the spirit of the culture that uses that language (A single word for first person singular and plural-- certainly not in very individualistic English!) Productiveness (derivational affixes or patterns) change, however the three person and the three time tenses would seem to be very very static (yet we find fourth person and fifth person in some languages) it is debatable whether or not all tense is set in stone or exactly how many tenses there are; some languages use one tense in lieu of another despite what is meant, and this changes over time with one tense displacing another (Greek); gender, declension, tonality and respectful declentions exist or are all together absent from one language to the next, or from one time to another; yet it is reasonable to assume that there is a Grand Unifying Theorem of grammar; and that Latin or Khmer or Cree Grammar all follow the same deeper rules of some G.U.T. of grammar. The use of gender is reducing in French language now? But does this have anything to do with gender in the sense of male-female, maybe not, but rather has more to do with immigration. How has mass media affected usage and neologism? How does script feed back on pronunciation for instance in Korean with its tight syllable rules? How did literacy in the English speaking world formalize language (subject is often omitted in many less ‘anal’ languages), or crystalize spelling? When the objective form ‘whom’ was displaced by ‘who’ did this actually have any deeper effect on English grammar or is it purely a spelling and pronunciation change? Is this change due to class and issues of education? I hate to say it, but there are a lot of issues that control the various levels of language besides men.

EDIT:I’m personally very interested in script and literacy. I wonder if the literacy rate is so different between Vietnam and Lao because the psudo-French script is so much easier than the psudo-Thai; or in Cambodia because the Khmer script is nearly a fossil. This would feed back on society. Old Church Slavonic had a huge impact on the religious life of Eastern Europe to put it very understatedly, and perhaps Cyrillic has done more to divide the East and the West than anyother factor?. Does Müller get off easier in history these days than Eichmann because the “ü” makes him harder to search on Google?

Maybe it’s more like 'Female langues still controling men" :smiley:

Let’s stick with English and other “Western” languages.

How does a “male” control the semantics, grammar, and practical application of language? Gender analysis, class analysis, and race analysis could certainly be included, because the male-female dichotomy is far-reaching in every area of life.

Regardless, that does not necessarily mean that “females control language” unless men were under their complete control (which we’re not).

If you want (objective?) opinion, I think you should provide more information as to what do you mean by “men”", “still”, “controlling”, “language”.
I think your question is too sketchy and over generalized.

Using your way of thinking, we can simply say “men doesn’t have control since men doesn’t have complete control over the language”. It’s silly, but that’s how you tried to argue. :slight_smile:

What’s the exact point ?

Men do have “complete” control over language, because it is a “male” domain.

It is similar to how there is no woman playing American NBA basketball, because they don’t the “tools” or “capacity” to compete against men at that level. The same applies to language itself.

“Men” = a male, a person with a penis who is not a hermaphrodite, and somebody who displays masculine characteristics (this person looks & acts like a “man”)

“Still” = meanwhile through time, and from the past to now

“Control” = have power over, are masters of (while “women” are slaves of), and own

“Language” = explicitly verbal & written communication, metaphors, and the especially the creation of new word-devices & word-relations

Ohh I’ll bite…

a. How is language a male domain? Last I checked little girls learn language at about the same rate as little boys.
b. Your basketball similarity is too overly complicated to either be good or explain anything. From what I can draw out of it, perhaps language is a form of tool use and this tool use is dominated by men.

I would propose you do not know enough about sociolinguistics to have a rational discussion about this. A half-assed discussion wherein you fight everyone and confirm your own prejudices after three pages of posts, yes. A legitimate discussion about gender, discourse, and the performance of speaking I surmise, is outside of what you know. To test: Have you ever read Deborah Tannen? A softball of a question…

I don’t think this is what you want to hear, but I think I actually do not want to follow you with the “Men Still Control Language” thesis. However, I am acquainted with a grammarian who I will see tomorrow and will quiz her about this topic, she may not have so many views about “practical application” but will definitely have some input about “Western” languages. As well, I think you really want some non-English speakers to post in this thread, even if you want only Western; French, Spanish, Ancient Greek, Hebrew, Russian, Arabic and so on might not shew the same results as in English.

My own rough view is that there are some oft pointed out facts about English that would imply phalocentricity in English language; these are worth mentioning although they are well known (Aristotle said we should begin by asking “what people say?”). ‘Mankind’ and 'man are used in general for all humans; ‘human’ contains -man-; a similar trend exists in many Western and Northern European languages; French, German, Dutch, Icelandic, Norwegian, Italian, Greek etymonline.com/index.php?term=man , very interestingly, it looks like ‘adam’ is man in Turkish; and also interesting to note there is a verb form of ‘man’, i.e. ‘to man’ ‘manning’ ‘manned’, ‘will have manned’ and so on. Man starts with an ‘M’ sound; but so does ‘mother’, ‘woman’ begins with a ‘W’ which is an up-side down ‘M’, but that is not true in French. There is no verb form of ‘woman’ in English: womanning, womanned… It is fair to say that this male bias extends through many parts of English vocabulary, ‘he’ is also neuter, though there is a trend these days to use a plural pronoun instead: ‘they’. Yet certain things such as ships use ‘she.’ But very interestingly, English is almost totally genderless unlike French, Russian or Arabic, with the exception of names: ‘Chris’ vs. ‘Christina’ or America or Australia; and ‘blond/blonde’. In case you are not aware, very roughly speaking, masculine words tend to be active and feminine passive: pen is masculine, table feminine in French; but this is very roughly speaking as paper is masculine and a gun is feminine; a sword has a masculine and a feminine form. I think it would be very hard to connect feminine gender to feminine grammatical gender. Or active and passive grammar tense to anything sexist: ‘I threw the ball/The ball was thrown by me;’ though it is perhaps interesting that English habitually uses the active tense and not the passive? There might be a little more argument with writing: Thoth who was male was the Egyptian patron of writing. Writing in the West is often though to have grown out of trade records and trade is a male activity. Cyrillic was invented by a man; there are few rounded shapes and more straight lines which is masculine in Western scripts; but those who claim that the shape of Arabic writing is derived from the flow of the desert are mistaken; the flow of Arabic results from the writing tool: the pen; this is also true of European languages which used the quill; and Oriental which used the brush; English letters are not easily written with a brush, Chinese characters are not easily written with a quill; European miniscule and cursive scripts would not have been possible before advancements in writing tools. Western language tends to use Subject-Verb-Object; some Eastern languages use Subject-Object-Verb. It would be a stretch to see any sexism in this; though perhaps the phalocentric relation between subject and object? Western language also tends to list from particular to general, Eastern (east of India and Indian Indo-China) names give generals first, but again is this a sexist feature of English language? Is capitalization in English or German sexist? No more so than cephalization is; but then ‘head’ also has a sexist meaning: as noun and verb. Western languages, excepting Indian scripts are linear, unlike Thai or Korean; but then is any script not Western? Thai is derived from Sanskrit (Indo) and Hangul is almost certainly heavily based on Indian writing systems via Buddhism (in my opinion) despite some Chinese forms. But what is sexist about linearality? Ask a feminist. Be that as it may; I’m very inclined at the moment to look at sexism in English language as confined to the more superficial parts of language; very basic parts of language such as noun and verb; definite/indefinite, articles, tense, English by in large being a non-tonal language, even writing and script do not at this moment seem to me to have any deeper sexist qualities.

‘A dog’/‘an apple’; other languages than English match up vowels and consonants (or anti-match) in pre- and post-positional articles; is there anything sexist about vowels and consonants? in many languages besides English, female names do not often end in vowels (Amanda, Stacey, Nikki…).

More after my chat with the grammarian tomorrow.

Etaoin,

Look at the root languages for the reformation.

Romance languages stayed Catholic. Germanic languages went Protestant.

The notable exception to this overall trend is Poland, because Germany was gonna smash them either way but they figured they lessen the blow.

Absolutely. You don’t mean to say that Germanic languages are or are less sexist though right? You want to say something religious/political/racial/climatic about language? That seems more productive to me than gender and sexism.

Not at all. Just that language and culture are inseparable.

The gender issue needs some justification. How have men controlled language? I’m not saying it is a bad hypothesis (a little too women’s studies for my tastes, but that aside), but I’d need something more to work with.

With language and culture the possibilities are endless. Look at the Eastern and Western Roman Empire, and how they functioned. The divides created by alphabets. Protestant vs. Catholic, and so on. Lots of very clear parallels there.

Now, cmon Xunzian. The hugenots? Bavaria? Lithuania? I would be more likely to add that the reason the Germanic countries went prod was because they had less tradition of centralized gvmt (the reason they didn’t speak romance languages in the first place). I think you put the cart before the horse on this one…

You are an ignorant person and I wouldn’t speak to you even if I studied socio-linguistics for a decade. Please do not respond further to my posts.

Great response and great points so far Etaoin, but yes, like you said, I’m looking for more about what your personal thoughts and contributions are…

Let’s start this topic off with a metaphor since people seem to be having some difficulty:

Men “control” others (men & women alike) through physical force or the threat of immediate violence.

Men “control” language in a similar fashion.

Since women’s domain has been to “control” the desires of men throughout history, any attempt by her to “control” language is secondary.

Men on the other hand, desire to “control” immediate environments primarily, which necessarily includes the creation and manipulation of language itself.

I lol’d.

Clearly language isn’t the exclusive factor, but I think centralization doesn’t work very well either. England was a very centralized country. Prussia had its stuff together around the time of the Reformation. Belgium/The Neatherlands were engaged in a brutal civil war (which I don’t think can really count as a strong centralized government) and one stayed Catholic while the other went Protestant.

I think language does play a factor, and I think it is a rather significant one. It is at least as predictive, if not more so than centralized government.

Look at the Huguenots, they didn’t take hold. As for Lithuania, like Poland it underwent the process of Christianization fairly late in the game and given that it was the last Pagan nation in Europe, I think it can be held in a special category. Additionally, the influence of the Orthodox Church needs to be considered in the Baltic states.

Expand on this please.