Meno's Paradox

“How will you look for it, Socrates, when you don’t have the slightest idea what it is? How can you go around looking for something when you don’t know what you are
looking for? Even if it’s right in front of your nose, how will you know that’s the thing you didn’t know?”

or

“You are arguing that a man cannot search either for what he knows or for what he does not know. He cannot search for what he knows since he knows it; there isn’t any need to look for what’s not lost. Nor can he search for what he does not know; for then he does not know what to look for.”

How might one response to escape such a position or argument?

Socrates (or rather Plato?) had a theory of recollection. He already knew these things before, one merely had to be lead aloft to recognize them for the truth that they are. Notice your examples force our minds to organize what is seen into something intelligible. This is because the mind searches for order in the external world. Just think of all the processes that happen between the fovia and the “mind”, if there is one. But these are perceptual, not conceptual, right. What Plato was trying to relay was something that was beyond the world of mere appearances.
I pose a question: how does one ever come to the understanding that there is a number after the last number you thought of? Is each integer discovered one at a time? 1-2-3-ah ha, 4! There are always a number after the next one, right? So how does one get to this idea?

Each number isn’t visible, so how do we break through the world of mere appearances to the world Pythagoras was so inclined towards, that of the rational order of number?

We learn ostensibly, by example. This is a tiger, this is a cat, that is a dog, and that is an apple. From there we then use our mental capacities to form ever more general rules and shortcuts. Through rational powers, Meno’s slave is lead to truth by the drawings in the sand. Meno’s slave starts to understand the relationships between rectangles and squares on a fundamental level. Not just what is true about one triangle, but every triangle-- even though every triangle can’t be seen.

Meno was able to so this through recollection. Now, others, like Kant and Reid, and i believe the Gestaltists will lay claim that we are prewired in some fashion to do this. Our faculties of mind(which aren’t necessarily reducible to physical stuff, they believe-- i think) if so developed will put order and grasp the truth behind the curtain of physical stuff. However, if our mind wasn’t cultivated then we might never develop the tools. This is like Piaget’s developmental stage in a way. We are not hardwired, it’s prewired-- there is hope, but it is not determined.

These are my first rough thoughts on this. Does it make any sense? :-k

I believe that it is possible to make something impossible to find. We put it in an uncommon space, then the other people search infinite space, but can’t search it all so they never find it.

here is another take on learning, or not being able to learn:

For either the wise man will teach this to the wise, or the unwise to the unwise, or the unwise to the wise, or the wise to the unwise. But neither would the wise man be said to teach it to the wise (for both are perfect in virtue and neither of them needs to learn), nor the unwise to the unwise (for both of them have need of learning and neither of them is wise so as to teach the other). Nor yet will the unwise teach to the wise; for neither is the blind man of instructing the man who sees about colours. It only remains, therefore, that the wise man is capable of teaching the unwise; and this too is a matter of doubt.

For if wisdom is “the science of things good and evil and neither,” the unwise man, when the wise man is teaching him the things good and evil and neither, will merely hear the things since he does not possess any wisdom but is in ignorance of all these things. For if he should comprehend them while he is in a state of unwisdom, unwisdom will be capable of knowing things good and evil and neither. But, according to them, unwsidom is not capable of perceiving these things; therefore the unwise man will not comprehend the things said or done by the wise man in pursuance of the rule of his wisdom. And just as he who is blind from, so long as he is blind, has no conception of colours, and he who is deaf from birth, so long as he is deaf, does not apprehend sounds, so also the unwise man, in so far as he is unwise, does not comprehend things wisely said and done. Neither, therefore, can the wise man guide the unwise in the art of life.

  • Moreover, if the wise man teaches the unwise, wisdom must be cognizant of unwisdom, even as art is of lack of art; but wisdom cannot be cognizant of unwisdom; therefore the wise man is not capable of teaching the unwise. For he who has become wise owing to some unwise. For he who has become wise owing to some joint exercise and practice (for no one is such by experience (for no one is such by nature) either has acquired wisdom in addition while his unwisdom still subsists within him, or else has become wise through getting rid of the latter and acquiring the former. But if he has acquired wisdom in addition while his unwisdom still subsists within him, the same man will be at once both wise and unwise, which is impossible. And if has acquired the former by getting rid of the latter, he will not be able to know his pre-existing condition, which is not now naturally so;

for certainly the apprehension of every object, whether sensible or intelligible, comes about either empirically by way of sense-evidence or by way of analogical inference from things which have appeared empirically, this latter being either through resemblance (as when Socrates, not being present, is recognized from the likeness of Socrates), or through composition (as when from a man and a horse we form by compounding them the conception of the non-existent hippocentaur), or by way of analogy (as when from ordinary man there is conceived by magnification the Cyclops who was “Less like a corn-eating man than a forest-clad peak of the mountains,” and by diminution the pygmy). Hence, if unwisdom is perceived by wisdom and also the unwise man by the wise, the perception takes place either by experience or by inference form experience. But perception does not take place by experience (for no one gets to know wisdom in the same way as white and black and sweet and bitter), nor by inference from experience (for no existing thing resembles unwisdom) [But if the wise man makes the inference from experience this, it is either through resemblance or through composition or through analogy];so that wisdom will never perceive unwisdom.

  • Yes, but possibly someone will say that the wise man can discern the unwisdom of another by the wisdom within himself; but this is puerile. For unwisdom is a condition productive of certain works. If, then, the wise man sees and apprehends this in another, either he will apprehend the condition directly by means of itself, or by attention to its works he will also get to know the condition itself, just as one knows the condition of the medical man from works in accordance with the arts of medicine, and that of the painter from works in accordance with the art of painting. But he cannot perceive the condition by means of itself; for it is obscure and invisible, and it is not possible to view it closely through the shape of the body; nor by means of the works which result from it; for all the apparent works are, as we showed above, common to wisdom and unwisdom alike. But if it is necessary that the wise man, in order that he may teach the art of life to the unwsise, should himself be capable of perceiving unwisdom-even as the artist lack of art,- and it has been shown that unwisdom is to him imperceptible, then the wise man will not be able to teach the unwise the art of life.”

That’s some pretty negative epistemology. Appearantly we can’t know what unwisdom is, even if we are as wise as hell. That doesn’t make much sense.

you may not be able to search for what you do not know but you can discover what you do not know. You need not look for knowledge to come to you.

That’s Socrates final conclusion. It’s only by the gods grace that we ever come to knowledge, not because of anything we are doing, i.e. like scientific method or whatever.

Well i might say you can put yourself in a position to learn, so in a way you can seek out knowledge.