are mental disorders a “new” thing for humans? is it “natural” to have depression/ocd/adhd, etc.? is it wrong for doctors to perscribe meds for this?
Qui Bono?
Is it that mental disorders are an actual problem on the scale that would justify a multi billion dollar pharmacuticals market for them?
Or, is it that the companies producing these drugs use a portion of their imense profits to propegate their own buisness? (much as I suspect major anti-virus companies of doing, but that’s another discussion…)
I have been a “read-only” member of this forum for very long…but this particular topic forced me to register and reply.
I have OCD…I should say extreme OCD. I don’t know whether it is a new thing or not…but I can tell you one thing …it is FOR REAL.
I consider myself a fairly smart and rational person, yet I have no control over a lot of weird things I do…like checking the stove, faucets,locks,heater etc 100 times before leaving the house…am always looking in the rear-view mirror when driving to check if I knocked somebody off…I wash my hands over and over again…worry myself sick over things that are not likely to happen etc etc
I lived 20 years doing all of the above without knowing that there was a thing called OCD. Then one day I stumbled upon a OCD Screening test website. I knew I had OCD when I checked 95% of the symptoms listed there.
Nobody else in my family has OCD. I can’t tell if it is due to any ‘Chemical Imbalance’ in my brain but I will tell you this…OCD is not a minor personality quirk or a habit that can be sorted out easily. I have tried medication and some forms of self-therapy but they haven’t helped.
I guess what I am trying to say is that I did not wake up one day and decided to have OCD…it was there with me every since I can remember infact (like I said before) even before I was aware of this acronym OCD.
wow…im gkad that this topic is of some importance to you because i have also had ocd and a fabulous array of all of those other disorders…i understand that it is for real, remembering how i had to wash my hands after touching anything at all, having tosit with my wrists facing upwards, having to check the cupboards in case someone was in them etc.
…but fortunately it went away
…then came depression(lucky me), fortunately knocks on wood my nice collection of meds has helped me out and i am much much better now, theres much more to it, but you dont need to hear my life story anyways,
i guess my question was that whether disorders could be just an extreme version of a trait, and whether or not it could be treated w/out meds, and if it has been happening to people forever, because some people (like me) acquire this “imbalance”(nobody in my family has had problems with this either).
…any thoughts?
I wish I had the scientific qualification to answer your question. However, from my own experience of dealing with OCD, I tend to subscribe to the school of thought that says OCD has a physical basis (e.g. ‘Chemical Imbalance in the brain’). How else can I explain my otherwise rational self not being sure that the stove is turned off even after having checked it more than 10 times.
Do you know that even small kids have OCD. How do you explain that? The mind of small kids are free from most personality biases/quirks that develop in adults through different life experiences. So how come the kids acquire OCD ?
The name “OCD” MAY BE new, the medications for it IS new…but the symptoms of what we now call “OCD” have been recorded in many personalities from modern and ancient history…
…really? i didnt know that!
btw: have you gotten any treatment for ocd?
^Einstien, Hitler etc for example. Howard Hughes more recently.
The term “OCD” had not been coined when these guys were around.
Yes, I have been on Luvox…It has not helped my OCD one bit (though I hear it has proved useful for other people).
…why dont you try a new medication?
…you should also try going to a psycologist, not just a psychiatrist (unless youre way ahead of me of course)
how long have you had ocd for?
Hi folks,
I too am glad to read these posts. I have struggled with and overcome some OCD symptoms over the years. My father had it severely, and other relatives had it slightly.
My take on this is that the basis of the disease lies in anxiety, worry and fear. I have OCD thoughts mainly, and the illness has also affected my eating, working life, ability to travel and relationships.
I agree that OCD, or any other mental disorder, is very, very real. I have often thought that I would like to give it to someone healthy just for half an hour, so that they could have a taste. I can remember my life before the first panic attack, and it was a life of blissful ignorance, and then all hell broke loose in my late teens.
To think that I once complained about having a headcold, it’s laughable in comparison to being in the front line every day. But we get through it.
I want to hear more.
freethinker
hmm…ocd confuses me, because it seems so easy to stop, but its so very difficult, because as soon as you realise that you need to do something (i.e. washing hands) you feel like youll die if you dont get it out of your system, and i ovecame all of the weird rituals i once had, so it doesnt seem permanent.
I wonder if people without OCD ever go through symptoms, like when theyre really nervous, because i still get some symptoms when im getting on a roller coaster or if im in an extreme state of ainxiety. Im pretty sure everyone has somewhat of a complulsive reaction towards stress, maybe its just brought out more in the “victims”, okay, alot more.
btw: has anyone ever had, what my psychologist used to say were “out of body experiences”? its when you are really nervous, or having a panic attack, and you all of a sudden feel detached from your body and youre unable to control it; you just freeze.
I think I have not had the exact symptom of out of body experience as you describe it here,but what seems most similar to it is, that sometimes, when I am nervous or very tired, usually this tiredness has to develop for a few days, and usually when I don’t get out for more days, I mean outdoors, it occurs that I feel as if I was to faint and I may get a few seconds of panicking as if I was realising “it’s all utterly useless, this life”, and relaising there’s no way out of living, and it feels so close to death this state.
There isn;t anything particular I fear, it is just very short anxiety, as if a flash of something. If there is another person near me I imagine how this person probably views me. I see myself as if more objectively, this is closst to what you say " out of body" experience.
a neurologist affirmed me that I have a very sensitive neural system, not resistant to stress conditions.
well, actually i know what you mean, but the “out of body experience” is like it but more physical, like, i would drop things if i was holding them…but you do feel faint. i remember having to leave wherever i was because i would feel nauseous and dizzy, like the world would end. maybe depression is a physical way of showing mental distain and stress. its one thing to be sad for a while, its another to be unable to work and feel faint.
do you have depression?
p.s.
sorry if i was too forward with the questions some1, i was just curious. please come back…
Well, the jury is still out on whether anxiety, worry and fear are the reasons for OCD or if they are symptoms of OCD.
My OCD has got nothing to do with my state of mind…it is always present…though admitedly it gets worse when I am anxious…
I think OCD is most likely to hit a person who thinks of himself as a perfectionist and is not able to deal with any kind of uncertainities. One who is prone to worry him/herself sick with all possible “what-if” scenariois regardless of their chances of happening.
bullseye!
- I consider myself a fairly smart and rational person, yet I have no control over a lot of weird things I do…like checking the stove, faucets,locks,heater etc 100 times before leaving the house…am always looking in the rear-view mirror when driving to check if I knocked somebody off…I wash my hands over and over again…worry myself sick over things that are not likely to happen etc etc
I’ve been a therapist for 16 years and I only have developed some interesting insights in the last few years. I think that this is partly because OCD people do not come in for therapy a lot.
Anyway, OCD reminds me a little bit religious behavior in that rituals are performed to warn off imagined threats, but that’s not the most original thought.
What I think is, is that people with OCD are profoundly selfish and ignorant. I hope that this accusation wakes some people up. The ignorant aspect of things is that easy to illustrate. Let’s take hand washing, many people know that the body is crawling with germs, bacteria, and tiny spider mites. All of these things are impossible to get rid of and many are very necessary to live. Hand washing does not get rid of these things.
The selfish part of it all is that when these people are told these realities it does not sink in. It’s as if their beliefs are more factual than proven facts. Also, these people will wash their hands but they are not launching themselves after others to clean their hands. The message is that I MUST KEEP MY HANDS CLEAN and screw others.
This can be generalized to most other forms of the problem. Most normal people worry about others while these folks primarily focus on themselves.
It’s most likely that people with OCD suffered some kind of narcissistic insult that made them feel some how especially threatened.
Another layer to it all is that the person is simply inventing nonsensical ways to waste to so that they can avoid real-life, which somehow they have been made afraid of.
On a personal level the thing that irks me the most about these guys is the really silly belief systems that they have. It’s got to be have the battle.
Good post Some1.
okay adler,
first of all, when it really comes down to it, there is something selfish in anything and everything that humans do (i.e. do charitable acts just to make themselves feel better, be kind to others just to be treated fairly as well, going to church to get a place in heaven themselves)
problema numero dos: most people who have OCD cannot control it , and usually do not want to do rituals in the first place.
point 3: personally, when i had ocd and i washed my hands all the time i knew for a fact that it wasnt doing anything, i was just compelled to do it. had i wanted to get rid of germs, i would have tried to get others to do the same. if you cannot reason withyourself, how can you deal with othrs?
also, if a person wants to be free of this disorder and tries to get help,not wanting to be compelled to be selfish, does that make them a narcissistic person?
okay, well, youve been a therapist for 16 yrs. how can you not know that a person with a mental disorder usually has no choice due to a PHYSICAL chemical imbalance in the brain? have you ever had it for yourself? do you really think that people CHOOSE to have OCD?
though i agree with you about the whole religious ritual thing.
.
Hello Alderian,
I’ve recently “semi-retired” from ILP because it was consuming too much of my time (plus, I allowed myself to get sucked into some silliness; not proud of it, but there were reasons…I mention this only because a) it helps me stick to my resolution, which I broke in this case for reasons listed below; and b) I figure if I remind myself about my past silliness, it will help keep me “honest” and I will be less likely to resort back to such silliness 
). But I saw your post and wanted to express surprise at your attitude. I’ve been a psychotherapist for eight years, I teach various psychology courses at different universities (I’ve chosen not to become a full professor for “political” reasons), and conduct psychological assessments for my private practice, clinics, and hospitals (mostly for child protection agencies). I’m stating my credentials just to get that out of the way (I saw you mention your experience as a psychotherapist–I’ll presume you attended one of the Alderian Institutes…in Chicago? Of course I’m inferring that from your name, so I could be wrong…My MA/PhD are in Clinical Psychology).
In any event, I saw your post on depression and agreed with you to SOME extent; though you committed the CBT fallacy of focusing too much on the cognitive process as opposed to placing enough focus on the EMOTIONAL aspect–the “click” that goes on when “insight” truly occurs; as you know, insight is NOT merely a cognitive process, at least not as Freud or even Perls would see it (I think I’m parapharsing Perls with the “click” line). Then again, you were responding to someone’s claim that you cannot think your way out of depression, so that may explain your focus.
But then I saw your post on OCD and, as mentioned, was surprised. I’ve treated people with OCD–I was trained in CBT by some of the bigger names in the field and worked with OCD clients/patients within that orientation. Yes, SOME were “selfish,” but with all the research on the genetic/biological aspects of OCD, how can you so blithely condemn ALL OCD sufferers for being “selfish”? Besides, some of my patients’ obsessions centred around OTHERS, for instance the belief that if they did/didn’t do ABC, then DEF would happen to person X. This is just one example.
Moreover, if you want to go the “selfish” route, we could argue that depression or any other disorder is “selfish.” And we could argue that from even an EVLOUTIONARY perspective–i.e., some have postulated that depression is an evolutionary strategy that “forces” OTHERS to care for you, while you lay “incapacitated.” What could be more “selfish” than that?
But my main concern is your condescending attitude toward sufferers of OCD. It’s so Dr. Phil or Dr. Slessinger–absolutely NO compassion, just an assault on people they find disagreeable. Given that, as a psychotherapist, your (or my) MAIN ASSET is EMPATHY (I’ve been trained in 7 different orientations, with Client-Centred/Humanstic being one), that kind of attitude is going to preclude successful treatment outcomes. You may be aware of the NIMH study that showed that it is a GOOD WORKING ALLIANCE that is the best predictor of positive outcomes. This alliance is not possible with such an attitude.
Maybe I read you wrong, and if I did, I apologize. Please feel free to clarify/correct me. In either way, I do not mean this as an attack. I was just so surpirsed how you entered a thread where people were discussing very painful/devastating disorders and you come up with the “selfish” line.
embracetrees
- first of all, when it really comes down to it, there is something selfish in anything and everything that humans do (i.e. do charitable acts just to make themselves feel better, be kind to others just to be treated fairly as well, going to church to get a place in heaven themselves)
I think that OCD people are profoundly selfish and self serving. I don’t mean selfish in an evil sense, but rather the person is just totally locked up in their own world of nonsense. A selfish act that makes others feel good is not such a selfish act.
- problema numero dos: most people who have OCD cannot control it , and usually do not want to do rituals in the first place.
So people say, but no mental problem is a choice, rather they are syndromes of illogical behavior that people get caught up in. OCD is like having a bunch of superstitions that you are caught up in but afraid to give up. Most superstitions take hold in childhood when you are just dumb enough to entertain the idea that they might be true and then they become a second nature kind of habit.
- point 3: personally, when i had ocd and i washed my hands all the time i knew for a fact that it wasnt doing anything, i was just compelled to do it. had i wanted to get rid of germs, i would have tried to get others to do the same. if you cannot reason withyourself, how can you deal with othrs?
You were compelled to do this by automatic thoughts that ran through your head very quickly. If you were in a coma you would not be doing that. It is conscious thought that drives behavior.
- also, if a person wants to be free of this disorder and tries to get help,not wanting to be compelled to be selfish, does that make them a narcissistic person?
Owning up to irrational behaviors is hardly narcissistic. Only narcissists hang on to their nonsense and call it good. It’s the “my shit smells like ice cream†syndrome.
- okay, well, youve been a therapist for 16 yrs. how can you not know that a person with a mental disorder usually has no choice due to a PHYSICAL chemical imbalance in the brain? have you ever had it for yourself? do you really think that people CHOOSE to have OCD?
The whole chemical imbalance thing is a creation of psychiatrists that going back more that a hundred years. It’s all theory and totally unproven. They also completely ignore the fact that they can’t explain the cause and effect sequence. For instance, thoughts most likely trigger brain chemicals like when something that you think exciting happens triggers adrenaline. However, the psychiatrists will say that the chemicals trigger the thoughts and this is a post hoc analysis, which is dirty business.
Meanwhile, many psychiatric study of brain chemicals have very small sample sizes. Sometimes it’s like six people. Brain chemicals are taken from the spinal fluid, which literally changes every few seconds, due to the dynamic nature of the brain, and can be deadly to remove, so it’s not done too much.
All of this crappy information has been used to generalize about the entire human race. It’s nonsensical bunk used to sell drugs. Believe it.
Also, the DSM-IV indicates that all mental conditions are unexplainable in medical terms. The public is being sold theories as fact. As I said, many mental patients of mine are remarkably ignorant about things and rather lazy. Even after I request that people read up on their problems they still don’t.
In sixteen years I can think of one guy that did and he was a prison inmate soon to be released. I was so happy that I ran out and bought him all kinds of books and he continued to read them. It was great.
Alderian,
Now you are passing on faulty information. Briefly:
I’m famous in my classes for ranting about BAD drug research and over-medication, etc., but you are ignoring the numerous studies with respectable sample sizes, not to mention PET scans and f-MRIs, as well as the infamous “adoption studies” which invariably show higher correlations between biological parents/children than adoptive parents/children. This does not PROVE a biological link, but there are many studies showing biological VULNERABILITIES. And believe me, I am VERY critical of most psychiatrists, namely b/c of the fraud of “chemical imbalance” they try to impose on ALL disorders. But to disrcedit YEARS of GOOD research (some of it) with one broad brush seems rather naive or ignorant.
Let’s be careful here. Yes, some researchers pretend that theories are fact (something I once again rant about in my lectures–e.g., those asses who strongly pushed PTSD as a “chemical imbalance” 3 or 4 years ago, essentially stigmatizing individuals who had a “natural” reaction to a TRAUMA), but let’s be careful about what you are stating. That is, what are you claiming about the DSM-IV? Yes, one necessary criterion is thatthe symptoms are not due to a “general medical condition,” and yes, in the “Associated Laboratory Findings” section, it usually starts off with “No laboratory findings have been identified that are DIAGNOSTIC of ___.” But many of these sections then go on to list MEDICAL or BIOLOGICAL or other physiological CONDITIONS that distinguish “normals” from people with the disorder. And what about research on ALLELLES? Check some of THAT out. Blum is a pretty good start…
Next you’re going to claim that SCHIZOPHRENIA has nothing to do with biology… 
If you meant to state that mood and anxiety disorders have no PROVEN medical causes (which I disagree with), then say so. Do not use the term “mental disorders.”
I’ve stated that, as Lacan claims, most patients do NOT really want to change. They want the WORLD to change. It’s similar to what you are stating. However, I understand WHY this is. That’s because I have EMPATHY for my clients. Empathy as in UNDERSTANDING and COMPASSION. With YOUR attitude toward your clients/patients, I’d be surprised at how many you actually HELP. I’m wagering that the only ones you DO help are those that would also benefit from Dr. Phil or Laura Slessinger–people who actually respond positively to being criticized by an arrogant, unempathic individual who takes his/her frustrations out on the clients…
Sorry for being so blunt, Alderian, but your posts reflect the problems I lecture on when I criticize my field. Your attitude and lack of understanding is irresponsible and potentially harmful to people who seek help. You are fitting the perfect bill of the “ugly therapist.” Heck, if I were a wee bit more paranoid, I’d think you were someone else masquerading as a psychotherapist just to see what kind of a reaction you can get out of me with your comments.
If you really are a psychotherapist, I highly recommend that you go (back) to a GOOD therapist to understand how one should be empathic in our field. You don’t have to condone or encourage “lazy” and “selfish” behaviours. But if you UNDERSTAND where they come from, you can position yourself in a way that helps the client come to an understanding and perhaps experience some CHANGE in their life, even if it’s not a major personality change but some small behaviour changes. At the very least, you could provide an hour (or 45 minutes) of “comfort” for them each week, as you could represent a rarity in their life: someone who DOES NOT JUDGE them…someone who makes them feel “valued,” regardless of how “lazy” or “selfish” they are.
psyque
I studied and got my degrees in Philadelphia and went to a doctorate program that focused on CBT. Adlerian psychology was the grandfather of both REBT and CBT. Several of my professors were trained Adlerians and I was encouraged to read up on that subject. I’m an avid reader and have read everything Adler even wrote and most of what Ellis and Yalom wrote just for the fun of it. Additionally, I’m pretty well versed in psychodrama and gestalt therapy techniques and principle.
Just by chance I have a masters in counseling and clinical psychology and I must say that my counseling degree was better than my doctorate.
I have personally studied psychology back to the late 1800s and generally a freak for psychotherapy.
It’s interesting but I stopped doing assessments (I used to give IQ tests and others) because I believe that they are massively unethical. I say this because I do not believe that the tests are testing what they say they are testing. My only favorite is the MMPI as that seems to be fairly truthful unless one is testing an ex-criminal, then it is screwed. Generally, I believe that psychology is turning, or maybe always was, a half baked mess. Now I am working in North Philadelphia with children.
- In any event, I saw your post on depression and agreed with you to SOME extent; though you committed the CBT fallacy of focusing too much on the cognitive process as opposed to placing enough focus on the EMOTIONAL aspect–the “click” that goes on when “insight” truly occurs; as you know, insight is NOT merely a cognitive process, at least not as Freud or even Perls would see it (I think I’m parapharsing Perls with the “click” line). Then again, you were responding to someone’s claim that you cannot think your way out of depression, so that may explain your focus.
I tend to throw in with Albert Ellis here and stick with the idea that beliefs create thoughts. However, there’s no reason the discount the idea that a feeling could create a belief and so forth. Mostly, I was responding to the “you can’t think your way out†idea.
- But then I saw your post on OCD and, as mentioned, was surprised. I’ve treated people with OCD–I was trained in CBT by some of the bigger names in the field and worked with OCD clients/patients within that orientation. Yes, SOME were “selfish,” but with all the research on the genetic/biological aspects of OCD, how can you so blithely condemn ALL OCD sufferers for being “selfish”? Besides, some of my patients’ obsessions centred around OTHERS, for instance the belief that if they did/didn’t do ABC, then DEF would happen to person X. This is just one example.
The research on all of this stuff is fairly crappy due to sample sizes and the incredible post hoc analysis that goes on. Unless you take a normal person and induce “craziness†in them through brain manipulation you have no idea about cause and effect. Any activity that is going on in a mental patient’s brain could be the result of thinking. This is such a moronically simple idea, and easily found in any critical thinking book, that I question anyone that does not question it in our field. Sixteen years has made me very cranky about the subject.
If there was a god of post hoc analysis psychologist and psychiatrists would be his priests.
Meanwhile, I did say that I think that OCD is rooted in extremely selfish and ignorant belief systems not that it is. Observation of the behavior tells me that it is goal oriented, rather than randomized brain functions, but that the goals are fairly stupid and based on erroneous ideas. The germ thing is especially true here.
I had a patient with Huntington’s Disease once and this was a person that had a host of weird behavior. However, none of it made any sense and none of it was repeated.
This is opposed to thematic behavior that is unusual. Where there is a theme there is thought and a story. I do not believe that brain dysfunction creates stories and themes.
Also, Adler believed that most mental problems were the result of becoming self-absorbed and I must say that I agree. He called problems basic mistakes and I tend to agree with this as well. I don’t think that anyone purposely seeks to develop mental problems.
- Moreover, if you want to go the “selfish” route, we could argue that depression or any other disorder is “selfish.” And we could argue that from even an EVLOUTIONARY perspective–i.e., some have postulated that depression is an evolutionary strategy that “forces” OTHERS to care for you, while you lay “incapacitated.” What could be more “selfish” than that?
Yes, but genes do not make up stories and think of strategies. Most depressed people hold negative views about life. Frequently these are cultural in nature. Genes do not make up these kind of stories and they don’t form events. The best that genes could do would be to provide a certain energy level.
- But my main concern is your condescending attitude toward sufferers of OCD. It’s so Dr. Phil or Dr. Slessinger–absolutely NO compassion, just an assault on people they find disagreeable. Given that, as a psychotherapist, your (or my) MAIN ASSET is EMPATHY (I’ve been trained in 7 different orientations, with Client-Centred/Humanstic being one), that kind of attitude is going to preclude successful treatment outcomes. You may be aware of the NIMH study that showed that it is a GOOD WORKING ALLIANCE that is the best predictor of positive outcomes. This alliance is not possible with such an attitude.
Hmm…perhaps your idea of compassion is not compassion at all. I have a history of working with some pretty hard-core people in desperate situations. Being truthful and direct is the best form of compassion in my book. I always say that speaking the truth is far more beautiful than any beautiful lie. Empathy compels me to tell the truth because I want to see the person move on as quickly as possible. Plus, I don’t think that one has to be nicey nice as a therapist especially if you are more of an analyst.
You should read or go see Albert Ellis in New York. He makes me look like a pansy!
Meanwhile, I absolutely despise client centered Rogerian therapy. I really think that it is condescending and insulting to the client.
A good working alliance is possible through the use of the Socratic method and debate. Clients love it! It gets their blood up and starts them talking away. Sometimes they get angry and say what they really feel.
Anyway, not to be insulting, although at times you were addressing me as if I didn’t not know what you know, but you should really get your butt out of the class room and go do some therapy with some real people, like everyday. See what problems are really all about and find out what really works. I suggest a milieu filled with the poor and the criminal for starters.
Finally, what the hell is so wrong with being selfish? It’s human and humans are stupid-smart-ignorant-enlightened-etc. creatures. There is no shame in selfishness. There is shame in denying it’s existence though.