I still read some of his post because I’m a little interested in how his unstable psyche would evolve (or deteriorate).
Right now, he seems to be keeping fragile mental/emotional balance by considering himself as “gifted”/“special”, and so on, which is probably motivated by his fear of inferiority. And it’s a pretty common trip among some young people. Not very special at all.
If we go deeper (and longer) into the silence, inevitably we would notice some changes.
It can be the changes in perceptions, luck, habits, diet, preferences.
Also, we would understand that more subtle form of pain and suffering are actually more powerful and compelling to push us into any routine habit of escapism.
Oh yes, we have been around this subject for some time and some of us need a little more than less …
This “simplicity” is something with which I strangely enough have been very familiar for some time. It is something that you carry around and can’t put aside, even if the whole world thinks otherwise. It is also something that always has a bearing on religious discussion because you can’t just take something describing a spiritual reality and jump to the assumption that it is describing a physical reality. It has to be looked at and “simple” common sense used, but most importantly, we have to realise that we are called into a space “betwix two worlds” when contemplating scriptures – a place of effortlessness and experience.
Grace is more to me, but at least what you said. In fact, I think that Grace is the reason that Christians need a Deity as a receiver of gratitude, which of course brings us very close to idolatry, but we just like saying “thank you!” when our stubbornness is overcome and we start to see again.
Oh yes, we can spend each day in awe, constantly discovering some new aspect of reality, discovering the validity of simplicity in such complexity, overcoming our conditioning and prejudices, realising just how much we are a part of this planet and all that lives on it. No wonder then that abhorrence grows at fundamentalist views that only want to get “this part of life” done with, to move on to the next. I am still wrapped up in D.T. Suzuki’s exegesis of Genesis 2, and the challenge of accepting that the “knowledge of good and evil” isn’t going to go away leaving us innocent again, but that awareness can help us overcome the duality that such “knowledge” creates and help us back to Eden.
Genesis describes the state of the world and Humankind as dis-eased. We have to find back to where the lost “ease” is found again. Those famous words of Jesus (Mat 11:28), “Come to Me, all those labouring and being burdened, and I will give you rest.” One of those places of rest is the “chamber” of silence.
“All will be acquired in stillness and made divine in silence. It is true not only of Psyche’s expected child that its future depended on her silence…”
I agree that there are a lot of people wasting time and energy by being caught up in some habitual practise of which they are not particularly aware or of what benefit that practise actually has or has not. I often speak to people who need a new perspective and many of them are Christians. I was actually bombarded here by conservative Christians who objected to my use of imagination and creativity to help inspire people. The same happens when you use a word like “mindfulness”, which isn’t particularly prominent in Christianity.
I also got caught up in a discussion about “works” with reference to meditation, but I noticed that there was no real understanding there for the fact that in meditation I was actually trying to “do” nothing but “be”, using my breath as a point of concentration. The simplicity of the idea was obviously causing problems. I said that I had used a mantra like “maranatha”, which seemed vaguely familiar to them, but that I preferred not to, but just sit for the sake of argument “in the presence of God”, however, without imagining what that could be.
The concept that awareness could arise from mindfulness meditation was a cause of sleepless nights for some, dreaming of my being ravished by the devil, having evils things whispered into my ears which would corrupt me. Even the humorously meant statement that they needn’t worry, I was already as corrupt as most, didn’t calm them.
Yes, I think that, with practise, we can enjoy this “inner peace” in any environment. Practise is needed (at least by me) because we are often caught up in this world and need some method to find our centre again. I have actually used such methods at the dentists and other places where a silent inner state isn’t normally what you find yourself in – with modest effect. Although, at the dentists you are appreciative of any effect at all …
OK, there are cases of that, but I think that intuition is partially enabled through memory and experience which we can always put back in favour of being mindful of the present moment.
Yes, I can see that this could happen …
Well, I haven’t seen an Angel yet I think (not that I would recognise one), the religious experiences I have had have been very undramatic (except the storm viewtopic.php?f=5&t=140818)
It seems that we have differing backgrounds – mine is particularly literary, which I’m not going to be able to change, but it seems we both have similar dangers only from differing perspectives. What you have to beware of using technical terms, I have to beware of using literary terms.
That sounds quite interesting. I think that most people who are pulled towards contemplative and meditative practises in adult life have also been brushed by experiences in childhood. These vary of course, I even knew a young woman who had been abused as a child and who took to a contemplative practise to overcome the turmoil in her. She was very brave and, although the damage was done, she was beginning to have tentative relationships with men again. In fact because of her, I started thinking about the people who live in monasteries and what drew them to that way of life, not regarding it so much as a regression, but rather a way of rediscovering a refuge that is a state of mind, rather than a place.
I too “dropped out” of life at the tender age of sixteen which my parents were called to attend to – but it didn’t help. When I joined the Army at eighteen there was nothing they could do about it, and my Father knew I was leaving for good. The Army was the completely wrong choice in one way, but it was a learning ground for a novice that provided plenty of food for thought. I wasn’t so tender when I came out nearly twenty three and had been roughed up considerably, but I found back to contemplation after reading Erich Fromm’s “To Have or To Be” around about 1980.
Sounds interesting, those are certainly areas where I have been considering the need of awareness (although in nursing rather than in industry), but what are those different states? Could you give us more insight into that?
Now that is something with which I can associate, and I think you did a good job of describing it. Perhaps it is only because I have experienced something similar, but it reasonates with me! Thanks for sharing it with us!
I thought even Christians use “mindfulness” type practices, especially in monastery.
They make take certain posture and chant while visualizing certain image and feel the vibrations or whatever, for example.
Anyway, I think it’s better to think mainly about our own problem rather than that of others.
I think it’s better to meditate alone, basically.
Discussing about technical aspects of certain meditation and exchanging ideas can be interesting, though.
Last 10 or 15 years, I rarely meditated with others. And when we did, it was to verify specific things, or just for fun.
Also, at certain stage, there is no point in dividing meditation and daily life.
But it can be better to separate the mindset at the beginning, and time to time.
I guess you were discussing with wrong audiences.
Leave them alone. Generally, we can’t force anyone. And we shouldn’t, most probably.
I don’t use anesthetic when I go to dentist. My dentist knows I can get used to strong sensations (pain), if he goes gently at first. I would sill feel the sensation, but it doesn’t bother me.
When the sensation is really strong, my brain would be saturated with signals and get all white. It’s pretty similar to bliss and “white out” situation, with distant feeling of dentist working on my teeth.
Storm is somehow often associated with different experiences, it seems.
I guess everyone “interpret” experiences according to the cultural/religious upbringings.
It’s another reason I don’t like religious teachings done to children, as it can prevent them from taking their experiences without religious slant.
It’s like placing a cage of religious mindset to them, although people inside the cage may not think it as a limitation.
But even without religious teaching, we are always within the parental/cultural cage unless we discover the perimeters of our actions/thoughts, very carefully and very thoroughly.
Meditations can be helpful in seeing our own virtual but yet solid limitations.
I think everyone has awareness experiences of different types and degree.
So, in theory, everyone would go into “awareness” related practices, according to your view.
But it’s not the case.
I think it would be more interesting for you to go into different states of awareness by yourself.
The problem is the lack of guides or schools without religious/cultural contamination.
I think one of the best way can be becoming aware of the state of awareness.
Notice that it changes continuously in the focus (if any), density, center of gravity, etc.
It changes even while asleep and in dreams.
Then we can practice placing awareness in a certain way.
Focusing practice in pretty common.
Less known practice is retreating the awareness towards the back ground of the focus.
Keeping the awareness, always, is another common practice.
Most people loose “awareness” very often.
When I was a kid, I was really aware only once in a while.
As I grew up, I was aware more often, and later it became nearly continuous.
Although it’s pretty simple in mechanism and description, it’s not easy to practice these because we are rather complicated by many many factors.
By being aware of thought, emotion, and sensation, we can lean whole a lot about ourselves and about others. It also means we would learn about negative things we don’t like to see much (by definition). So, unless we are really ready and willing to face everything, including things we fear/hate/disdain most, we can’t truly be aware.
As we don’t have problem facing rosy things, we need to be geared more toward negative things, in general. But it’s against our human animal nature (and probably against the nature of the existence).
In short, if things become uncomfortable and uneasy, it can be a good sign, as long as we can stay aware and face things without being blown away nor running into common escapism mechanism.
I also thought that Christians use “mindfulness” type practises, but I came to realise that it is only a minority and that much of what they did was restricted by what you spoke about in your last post. Mindfulness is not a widely spread terminology amongst Christians, although there are growing groups which promote such practise: (wccm.org/home.asp?pagestyle=home)
I agree and do so, it is just that, from time to time, especially within a Christian environment and in view of people who you would tend to encourage to find some time to meditate or at least find some silence, you tend to exchange views on this and that. Recently I was fortunate to have met some Buddhists who entertained me with a discussion on spiritual practise, who encouraged me to follow through with my intention.
I haven’t yet reached the stage of experiencing meditation and daily life as one, but I have found that I can vaguely grasp the idea in certain circumstances.
Generally, I think it was the opposite of “forcing” anyone; in fact I was being “forced” to explain myself. I have found that Buddhists seem to have fewer problems with hearing Christian views than vice-versa. Perhaps that is only my experience, but I think that Christianity does have problems in this area.
Well, we have something in common there then …
There is no doubt that it was a religious slant that coloured that experience, but it was also an awakening to the fact that I am a part of this gigantic spectacle we are experiencing as well as being able to transcend it. I think that I was able to do that by having a vocabulary to describe such an experience. I agree that perhaps a spiritual background that had less imagery might have been more beneficial – but I am thankful for what I had.
Besides, the imagery that I had (Job) was a circumscription of the path to awareness, which in this case happened in a storm. If you know the story, Job is surrounded by friends who were putting the “religious slant” on his experience of reality, and Job too was sliding into the same. Awareness comes when God speaks out of the storm and makes us aware of the greater reality of which we have a part, but which requires humility, not self-righteousness.
No, if you observe, I spoke about “people who are pulled towards contemplative and meditative practises in adult life”, not everyone.
Of course any exchange we have here doesn’t replace ones own experience, but I was thinking more along the lines of “discussing about technical aspects of certain meditation and exchanging ideas”, as you said. We don’t live in a vacuum, so I’m not surprised that “religious/cultural contamination” cannot be avoided. Even the Doctor who led the MBSR course, who is not a Buddhist, is “contaminated” culturally or perhaps even professionally.
There are a number of meditation practises that are taught in the MBSR course, starting and proceeding with regular body-scans of various kinds, progressing through mindfully eating one meal a day, guided sitting meditations going from 10-15 up until 45 minutes per day, practicing informal mindfulness in routine activities; becoming aware of events that I experience as pleasant or unpleasant; becoming mindful when I go on “automatic pilot”, noting under what circumstances it occurs; focussing on mindfulness in communication; becoming aware of the relationship between eating and mindfulness; attending an all-day silent retreat.
I found it was a good grounding and have been working for a while now without the guided meditations and concentrating on integrating informal mindfulness practice into my daily routine.
While I agree that Buddhism is more inclusive than Christianity from a systemic point of view, I would point out that a lot of what leads to the image that Buddhists are more open than Christians is selection bias. The hardcore Buddhist-Buddhists tend to be located in countries where access to the internet and all of that is very rare whereas ardent Christians are more likely to be present in areas where internet access is readily available. By extension, merely by living in areas where internet access is plentiful and even having internet access, we are more likely to be exposed to various strains of hardcore Christian fundamentalism but not exclusive strains of Buddhism (Theravada, especially as praticed in Thailand, comes to mind).
All I’m saying is that on the internet you are much more likely to encounter a Christian from Missouri who thinks that Buddhism is devil-worship than you are to encounter a Buddhist from Huangshi who thinks that Christianity is cannibalism.
It is important not to have an overly rosy-view of these things.
As for meditation, I think that the discipline of meditation lends itself to public expression. If there is no one there to hit you when your posture isn’t correct, how can you expect to achieve proper posture?
In addition to what I said as the example, the church, rituals, and other activities with symbolism were possibly constructed for certain kind of awareness, under certain conditions.
But I can see that only some people would see heir religious practices from the angle of awareness training.
In my case, I can’t stay without being quiet, time to time.
I would simply stop, and stay quiet for a while. Sometime, it’s just 4 minutes. Often it’s a bit less than an hour, but it can be several hours.
Also, while waking up and going into sleep, I tend to stay very quiet.
Oh, I see.
Although there are exceptions, I guess Buddhists tend to be a bit more open minded than Christians.
Yup.
Yeah. You can re-interpret the insight, later, although you may have to make some effort or you may have to go through some shock to do that.
I don’t like “humility” when used with religious background.
It can be used for justifying “obedient” and “blind following” attitude or tendency.
And anyone with a bit of sensitivity would feel that we are tiny tiny bug on the earth if we go outside and play in the nature.
I could see huge thunder clouds developing and coming suddenly with the gust front, followed by hail stones and pouring shower. And just the sound was scary when I was a kid. I didn’t need any religious text to understand we are in the nature.
Possibly, the need for “humility” was created by another religious aspect of Christianity.
Because of Genesis, many people tend to think human as something superior, beyond other species, and so on, which is rather stupid.
It’s true that our logical mind is more developed than other creatures.
But other than that, there are many species that out perform us in many many areas.
I think religious context is complicating things in this area, too.
I talked with many friends and found out that most of them had memories of different states of awareness. But only some of them were involved in meditation practice.
Sure, those who practice would have experiences, too. And for some of them, I’m sure it left strong impression on them and motivated them to explore the awareness oriented subjects. But I tend to think they remember this type of event better than others, and talk about it more than others simply because hey are interested in.
Strange events and different states of awareness are shared by many many people, IMO.
It’s because talking about things you don’t know can be more harmful than beneficial.
And if you care for “humility” of certain type, it’s a good idea to avoid superficial knowledge and spend more time actually meditating.
Also, if you manage to do what I’ve written, I’m sure that you will experience a bit different state.
Well, I do think that we do live in a vacuum, alhought I understand what you wanted to say.
And we can try to reduce the contamination, rather than let them slip in.
Although “mindfulness” meditation is known for causing a condition similar to neurosis or restlessness, I guess it can be beneficial for stress reduction or others objectives if it’s guided by someone who knows what is really happening.
At the end (if there is an end), we need to be totally alone to advance, though.
As long as we depend on something, we are limited.
That’s another reason I don’t like religious contexts, because it tends to create dependencies and the limitations (of logical thinking and attitude) that come along, if you want to go far.
As long as it’s just a casual practice, it doesn’t matter a lot.
And it’s better to have some practice in any context than nothing, I guess.
I certainly agree that it should be expected that mindfulness and awareness be practised in the Christian church, especially since Christ is portrayed as a particularly mindful personality. The fact that parts of the Church do practise mindfulness, especially the monastic traditions, is a sign that public worship has lost a valuable element of Christian spirituality.
Although I have had some very wild times, I have been on the whole quite meditative and concentrated, so that my wife has said to me that she isn’t surprised that I have moved towards meditation in this way. I can too be unnervingly quiet (says my Boss).
Yes, I thank you and Xunzian for ensuring a balanced look at Buddhism and of course you are right, but as both of you have stressed, the tendency is there. Tentative has also said that I carry a lot of bulk around with me as a Christian, even if I am in the right places. I am thankful for people who are sincere and constructive in their criticism, since, as Xunzian said, “If there is no one there to hit you when your posture isn’t correct, how can you expect to achieve proper posture?”
I think that the only effort really needed is to be mindful of the way you interpret occurrences. Some believe that people have in the past interpreted Christian scripture literally – which may be right at certain times in history to some degree, but I believe that Christians before the dark ages have been more mindful of analogy and metaphor than we are today. I am quite aware of how I use symbols and anecdotes to express my feelings – I wouldn’t claim that every one is historically relevant – and I think that it is quite Ok to do that, as long as you are aware of what you are doing.
I know what you mean, but I feel that humility is something that is lacking out of ignorance today. What I meant was that mindfulness can overcome such ignorance but it doesn’t lead to self-righteousness, but to humility.
Agreed, but you can say that in relative security. Imagine a situation in which you are literally fighting for your life and then look at the rough and tumble experiences that nature can give you. I think that it is often the combination of criteria that creates the outcome. Some combinations require someone to come along and shout “Stop!” “Look!” and have us pay attention to the fact that this is all a cycle of events into which we are interwoven, in which we all have a part to play. We are all cast in our roles and we have to play along to understand where we are going, and what we will be.
Yesterday a little boy called, “Hey Grandpa!” And he meant it! I’m only 53, so that was quite a shock for me. But it made me think of the Grandpa’s I’ve known, and made me ask whether they were happy with that title. And yet, the cycle of life is what we are about – being, now, here as whatever we are or considered to be. There is another call to stop and look!
I don’t think that it is stupid, but often the wrong ideas are attached to a supposed superiority. I think that the story of Genesis is telling us that we are different, that we can be aware of our awareness, which seems to be ours – although we can’t know for sure. Whether that can be judged as a general superiority, I’m not sure. I’m quite jealous of dolphins or of eagles, so are they superior? Far more important is the fact that we can have a role to play in keeping this planet green and blue, avoiding an ice-age, learning from the incredible complexity of life and how we are dependent upon every species to really feel well.
You’re right that Judeo-Christian arrogance has caused a lot of desolation and unnecessary suffering; however it has in fact been the influence of many factors on Judaism and Christianity that made us loose the connection with our role in nature.
OK, I think that awareness is more commonplace than we are aware of (??) – but being aware of that awareness, which is what makes us human beings, is what is lacking. I think you are right that we have to spend more time meditating and we should try to reduce the contamination. Thanks for the tip (livingmindfully.org/)
Yes, I was actually touched by the autobiography of Alan Watts who became an Episcopal priest much like someone else would become a doctor - and failed miserably. His idea of Christian spirituality was one of making his congregation independent rather than dependent, which is what I see St. Paul doing when he went around “planting” churches. It didn’t catch on though!
In that sense, it’s a matter of employing skillful means when considering or interacting with people of other traditions, which can apply (or not) to anyone. We can adopt the viewpoint that we all have to get along or perish, so we better figure out how to do so…or we can take the viewpoint that there’s one path available and not following it results unequivocally in eternal damnation, so there can be no stopping those who believe it until all others are ‘saved’ from that undesirable fate. I thought the American dream of ‘separation of church and state’ was a darned good attempt to achieve the former. But it seems at times as though those of the latter view are hell-bent, as it were, to unravel that protection.
Buddhism is, soteriologically speaking, less harsh. Although the hook is that once you’ve had even the dimmest, nanosecond of awareness of liberation, samsara becomes an unbearable state. Thus I have heard.
No doubt there are fundamentalist-minded Buddhists and I recall reading about evangelical ones, like SGI. (Although some of those folks may have the zeal of ‘born-again Buddhists’, refugees from Christianity or Judaism). It’s to be expected, that’s typical human behavior. I suppose Buddhists have an advantage in terms of we know up front there’s no almighty supernatural deity to enforce what we say or to whom we can attribute the unexplained, so we have to be more earth-bound and rational about things. And I think that Buddhists in the West, especially the US, also have to be more open, since we’re a relatively small minority in an overwhelmingly Christian culture. I’m tolerant as far as everyone going by a ‘live and let live’ attitude (although not so much when it comes to proseltyzing, lol), but I do have clear opinions regarding the differences between theistic religions and Buddhism, which I find to be both substantial and fundamental. Buddhism in its traditional Eastern form often gets diluted in the West, aka the dualistic half of the planet. It’s amazing to me how many people think they get it because they’ve read a bit about it. (I’m sure Christians think this, too, although more people know more about Christianity in the West.) I hear so much new-age gobbledeegook that people really believe is Buddhist. (and don’t start me on karma!) Yet they’re two strikingly different views of the way things work in the world. Certainly I can see how both may provide people a path to living a moral and meaningful life. But that doesn’t mean we agree on stuff. I have a viewpoint shaped by my experience of putting the Buddha’s teachings into practice…and when I apply that viewpoint to Christianity, I don’t see it as a liberative path. But I don’t usually care to debate about it in that context, because I’m not interested in convincing anyone else.
I should come as no surprise that I pretty much agree with everything you wrote. It is the New Age connection (which you rightly disparage) that gives me both pause and worry because it leads to an idealization that simply isn’t true. That isn’t a strike against Buddhism, but rather a strike against people wanting to make a system created/discovered by humans to transcend that very humanity. The problem with Christianity in the West is usually overzealousness, the problem with Buddhism in the West is usually naivete. I don’t actually think that Bob is naive on that matter; indeed, I do think he is approaching the situation from a sincere, good-hearted, and well-informed perspective. However, given the various misinterpretations of Buddhism that are prevalent in the West (and the world. There are plenty of times where Buddhism have fused with local religions and deviated from orthodoxy in very significant ways, and that is without getting into a discussion about orthodoxy . . .) it is sometimes worth pointing out that Buddhism, too, has its flaws. All too often exuberance overtakes sense on that matter.
“Check yourself before you wreck yourself” is always a good maxim. Exotification and Orientalism lead people to lose sight of that. I’m just trying to do a little bit of raining before the parade so people are prepared for it before the marching starts. Buddhism has a lot to offer (I don’t suspect you’ll disagree with me there ) but if people want it to be something it isn’t there will be nothing but problems.
Whereas I understood Xunzian in the way that he was calling for a more balanced look at my experience with Buddhists – which I believe is very valid – I’m not sure how I should understand your answer to him. We all know that the two groups you mentioned are both around, and that in America, the situation is different to here in Europe, but is “eternal damnation” the terminology we would use in both cases?
My thread is about mindfulness and it’s importance in the dialogue between spiritual traditions. If we fail to get along, it will no doubt be damaging for the planet and for us, but the fundamentalist path seems to invoke destruction whilst failing to realise that we are all microbes on a great big living organism that will carry on when we are all gone anyway. That seems to be the problem with all kinds of fundamentalism.
So the best thing we could do to promote Buddhism would be to make it possible for as many people as possible to have “even the dimmest, nanosecond of awareness of liberation”. Contemporary Christianity is different in as much as there is no experience of liberation without at least the vague feeling that I’ve had it drummed into me. My approach was to ask Buddhists, what pathways they had to answer certain spiritual questions like what are the hindrances to spiritual life; how do I become peaceful; how it is best to practise loving kindness; what is joy; how to deal with anger and so on. The answers I got were not full of “missionary zeal” but of personal concern.
I must ask though, whether samsara is really “unbearable” for the enlightened, and what the alternative would be.
That is of course disturbing, because Christians don’t have an “almighty supernatural deity to enforce” what they say either. Anybody invoking the lightening from the heavens is most likely to be mentally instable and either needs psychiatric treatment or a cold shower. Such behaviour is simply “religulous” and is best put in its place by snatching away the towel (if you see what I mean).
The reason I took to the path I have been travelling down for some time now has been the very aspects that a Buddhist and I agree upon. Using the motto, “Do nothing alone that you can do together”, I began asking why I find the Buddhists down the road so agreeable (and they seem to find me agreeable too) whereas members of my own church often drive me nuts? I immediately got the “New Age” label and the whole thing went underground, because you can’t speak to Christians on that basis.
However, the reason there is a protestant church is that, at some time in history, somebody came up with the idea that we Christians had lost our way and we have to go back to basics, and provide all Christians with the Bible in their own language. When you start reading the synoptic Gospels, you get an idea of a Christ-figure who doesn’t seem a lot different to his contemporaries, except his healing and miracles, and his approach. This approach has, as others have noticed before me, a similarity to what has been told about Buddha – not the same, but there is enough similarity to mention it.
When you look at Paul’s letters and Johns Gospel, we are on a completely different theological plane, although some of the attributes of the resurrected Christ does ring a bell with Buddhists. I see Jesus as a liberator and his “Way” a path to freedom, but this isn’t a question of “is this that?” but is there a spiritual truth that is the “bottom line” of all spiritual traditions, which arises in different clothes in various traditions? And is one of the common denominators mindfulness? I believe this is so.
Control is controlled by its need to control. The masculine desires control. Control is a masculine passion. Control is no less a passion than lust or love.
Watch out. There are so many people who just hit you without knowing what you are trying to do and what they are doing.
And proper posture happens as the result of understanding, lack of tension, proper awareness placement, and so on.
But some people love to hit and get hit, anyway.
Hitting (seen in some meditation) can be seen as a sort of deep tissue massage, though. I can bring up some accumulated things to surface when properly done and received.
I think we can talk in anyway we want. And we talk as we want, anyway.
But not so many of us are aware of meaning we are allocating/assigning to each term/symbol we use.
We can’t really have very meaning full talk with someone who isn’t very aware of what s/he is talking about. Often they are simply spitting out tangled and confused chunk of perspectives as a mean of emotional expression.
Yeah. We can see so. But when we do/say stupid things, we tend to hit a wall. And it can be a good shock.
That’s why I prefer honest egocentric attitude over artificial humility.
By hitting walls, some of us may learn and grow by ourselves.
Not at all. When I was a kid, we played a lot and did many dangerous things.
We knew we can get injured or even die.
Even simply climbing a high tree can be risky. We knew too well that the ground is bigger and often harder than us.
Once, I was caught by a wave and tumbled under the water for a while. I could be dead at that moment. But somehow I was calm and I was enjoying he moment. It was beautiful under the water.
I just understood the sheer power of the wave, and fragile nature of our lief, as well as the beauty and interesting display of the ocean. Nothing religious in my interpretation. And without religious (contaminated) interpretation, I think I understood several thing much more clearly than with it.
I don’t share the “role” playing perspective.
I feel I’m simple awareness, thus not much role other than being aware to play.
If you insist, my role is that of an observer.
As for the attention calling part, I’d say we don’ need much if we are aware.
Because we will perceive things without being told and before being told.
Fixated focus and/or scattered focus is the principal cause of the clouded awareness, I guess.
If so, focusing practice (to gather scattered focus/perspectives) and then pulling focal point back to the base of the awareness can be pretty beneficial in having clearer awareness.
Gymnastic of perspective is a good idea.
Without being aware, we tend to have lots of clogged perspectives.
Basic practice is to see things from both end, and from the extreme.
Another method, which is the stretching of perspective muscle, is to seek ultimate, absolute, etc, WITHOUT making exception/excuse/blind-spot.
Simple mental gymnastic can have great impact in the mindful/awareness practice.
Keeping uncertainty as such IS also the humility, isn’t it?
As far as many kind of humility goes (since you like it), Jewish culture isn’t the best example to follow. I’d say it’s one of the worst.
And Christianity is deeply influenced by Jewish mentality + Western ignorance/arrogance. I mean, how can we pretend to be civilized when we genocide other folks (American natives and probably other people)?
Maybe I should insist on the relative nature of all evaluations, again.
Superiority can be evaluated when we have a proper measuring scale to apply.
So, we can talk of it in a SPECIFIC and relative manner, but not as a general superiority.
Dolphins are usually superior in swimming, among other things.
Eagles are usually superior in flying, unless we cheat by using airplane.
Likewise, humans are usually superior in logical thinking, although many of us don’t use the potential adequately.
There is no general superiority one anyone over others.
Presuming general (absolute) superiority, or any quality for the matter, is having the illusion of fake absolute on something relative and conditional.
Many people in religions ( and even outside religions) are having problem understanding this simple nature of evaluation ( and logic).
Do you think we can play the role correctly?
Majority of us don’t even understand how logic works (in relative and conditional way).
Although we DO have potential to be reasonable, we aren’t yet.
Again, I tend to think that you have been lured into this kind of illusion that presumes higher than actual human capacity by Christianity and/or other influences.
I think you are presuming a lot, again.
We never know.
What I know is relatively low level of awareness observed among humans.
Animals are probably as stupid as we are (in many regards), but they in no way (absolutely and generally) less aware than many of us.
Actually, humans are living in a kind of day dream made of chunk of presumptions that we are less aware in a certain way.
Now, because of the way we act, some of us are becoming aware that we are hitting walls in many areas, like uncontrolled population growth, etc.
It’s like the late Bush helped some Americans to become slightly more aware in certain areas. So, seemingly bad/wrong/negative thing may have actually good/right/beneficial facet, depending on how we see it.
As the mental fixation tend to hinder mindfulness or awareness, I think it’s very important to realize the degree of conditioning we have and loosen up to gain wider vision.
Really it is only a question of whether we have a common agreement on the meanings we allocate to words and expressions, or whether such an allocation is what we are looking for agreement on in a particular conversation. That is, do we speak the same language or not? Until this question is answered, we have no idea whether people are just “spitting out tangled and confused chunk of perspectives”, or whether, if I did speak their language, it would all make sense.
I think that what you are saying is that what is often called a “civilised conversation” can be misleading and that a conflict situation has more honesty in it. Of course, the so-called “civilised” can be very smug and assuming, saying things that are not as clear as they are made out to be. However, conflict situations, when our self preservation gets the better of us, very often give cause for regrets later on. That would suggest that both situations can of course be veiling the truth more than revealing it, but a conflict situation has more potential with regard to unconsidered behaviour. It can go well, but it won’t in most cases.
And still you are saying this in relative security. I did a lot of stupid things when I was on active military service, dangerous things that could have cost not only my life, but the lives of others. It was out of youthful abandon, not out from a measured risk, which just shows that we assumed a security – one that was relatively protected by unknown influences on my life. A lot has to happen so that in such situations, nothing happens.
I think that your example doesn’t suit the situation I was describing. The danger I was in on that ferry was indirect, whereas the wave was a direct danger. In the first, there is time for deliberation, not so in the second. The weighing up of your situation under water is more an afterthought which, by a trick, our mind suggests we had at the time. In danger we don’t tend to think at all, but our self-preservation takes over. If we’re lucky, we are calm, otherwise we panic.
I don’t believe you! You are a physical entity and therefore you have to “fit in” somehow. Everybody takes on roles in situations and nobody is neutral.
In an ideal situation I would agree with you, but when are situations ideal and how often do we behave inadequately? I behave in a lot of situations appropriately, sometimes I am just thankful that someone is standing there, or when something happens that gives me a new perspective on a situation. Mindfulness and awareness are of course very important, but even an aware person “reads” a situation, therefore there must be something to read.
It seems I did something right then!
When I say that we can’t be sure whether being aware of awareness is alone our ability, I mean that I don’t know whether Dolphins or some other species has the same kind of awareness.
It seems to me that there are or have been other cultures that have had their share of ignorance and arrogance and committed genocide on others. All you need is a half way logical argument leading from the necessary assumptions or prejudices that can’t be questioned and you have the full potential for committing atrocities. It is typically human, not just typically Christian or Jewish.
Which is what I was pointing at …
No, I think that it is our unspoken rules in society which prevent people to deal according to universal wisdom. Everybody knows deep down that discrimination of any kind creates duality and the decision that one thing is good and the other thing is bad. In reality it is a question whether something is appropriate, ripe, mature or seasoned, or whether it is inappropriate, unripe, and immature or out of season at a particular time, but everything has its time. This is something that an agricultural society can take into account, but for a society that wants to provide everything the moment it is requested, there can be nothing that is inappropriate, and those things that are unripe and immature or out of season are “bad” for business. Thereby we make moral judgements on something that has no moral relevance.
Logic only needs unfounded prejudice as its basis and it will lead to an inappropriate conclusion, and that is where those human-beings, who have an overbearing moral perspective on life, or the opposite, make mistakes.
If you practice “mindfulness”, you will see how unaware we are, in general.
I simply offered different perspectives yours since it may help loosen up fixations you may to have.
) but if people want it to be something it isn’t there will be nothing but problems.