I thought I’d run this past you out of interest. This is a real life dilemma though in the end there probably wont be a problem [hopefully].
My daughter is a bit of a rock-chick and her boyfriend likes rock too, she comes from a secular [yes you heard that right] background which I maintain, and from a druidic ‘religion’ ~ which is a choice as far as I am concerned. He is half Irish and half Pakistani, his current family are Muslims though his natural mother is Irish and non-Muslim.
In conversation my daughter mentioned that her boyfriend had been reading about an Islamic thinker [I don’t know who] and been inspired; upon which he said to her that his parents would expect her to marry into Islam.
I replied that, that was a racist, sexist and manipulative statement. Manipulative in that she has never expressed any desire to become a Muslim, sexist because he assumed she should follow in his way, racist in that her culture is being sublimated by his.
Why cant two people have two identities and different ways of life, religion, culture and whathaveyou?
My second problem is that his parents have expressed a desire to move back to Pakistan in a year or so, and ‘perhaps‘ he‘d move their too. He has however said he has only ever known Britain [so wouldn’t move to Pakistan], and a while ago said he wasn’t a Muslim as such, just that it was part of how he has been brought up.
What happens if me and my daughter said to him, why don’t you marry into druidry? [lols ~ can you imagine!] For me it’s a matriarchal spirituality [probably not culture though], so why shouldn’t the daughter have the say if we are going to be sexist about it?
I also think that Pakistan is a shit hole [this is where I get racist to make the point], full of idiotic small minded knob-ends, and a great distance to be from my daughter, not to mention a very dangerous place for her!
What then is the choice of freedom? Or the otherwise right thing to do [given that I have any say in the matter]?
What if I let her do ‘what she wants’ and she decides to marry into Islam? For me that isn’t a choice she has freely made, and she has been coerced into it. …and it could lead to her moving away etc. …which also wouldn’t be her choice.
he was just saying something that’s true. facts are not racist or sexist, though I suppose they could be brought up manipulatively.
I think it was, to the contrary, a very considerate thing of him to say. It’s like saying, “You know, I like you, but you investing so much time and interest in me comes with the following costs, so continue at your own risk.” It’s straight-forward. It’s bold and brave. I don’t have any respect for Islam, but I certainly respect the practice of warning people about what’s wrong with a product before they purchase it. I don’t see this as fundamentally different.
Viewing it as coercion is, again, ridiculous. You’re just being reactionary, probably because it’s your daughter. You talk about free choice – does he not have the free choice to choose not to marry someone if they don’t want to be part of his religion? Your daughter can freely choose to marry him, but he can’t freely choose not to marry her?
I know it’s hard to see clearly when it’s your own daughter at stake, but you’ve got some double standards here. You’re looking at it from a very skewed perspective. Like I said, it was nothing but considerate of him to let her know the stipulations of continued involvement with him. He’s allowed to choose his own conditions for marriage, as is your daughter. Those conditions may be stupid, but if you’re interested in free choice – well, why is he not free to have stupid conditions?
The expectation derives of racist intent [they must be like us and not us like them], certainly the eventuality would be racist anyways.
She had fallen in love prior to the declaration, her investment in him was thusly made upon false understanding ~ which is inconsiderate. Its more like buying a washing machine and getting a hoover arrive at the door. Why should he impose ‘risk’ upon her, why cant he accept difference, and why cant she make the same demands of him?
He does have that choice yes, but then he’d be allowing her to make her choice or leave her, which he is free to do.
He can but he cant take away her free choice.
Or ours as parents to not want her to move into potential danger, or a religion we dont agree with or is otherwise not our free choice.
Was he adopted? Is his current mother Muslim or not Muslim? Because if one of his parents did not convert to Islamic faith it wouldn’t make sense that both would insist that their daughter-in-law should become a Muslim.
He’s not taking away her “free choice”. He’s telling her explicitly, “If you choose to marry me, my parents expect this.” Telling her the results of a choice…that’s not taking away choice.
I’m sorry your daughter fell in love with a Muslim. I’m having a daughter of my own soon, I’d be equally distraught if I found out that the man she loved would only love her back if she became a Muslim. However, like I said, he’s free to choose his own conditions. You’re free to advise your daughter to not accept marriage under those conditions, but I don’t think it’s really respectable, or true, to respond with “He’s racist, he’s sexist!” He’s honest. Is it true that his parents expect that? If it is true, then by complaining about him telling her that…are you not complaining about him telling her the truth?
I’m a cigarette. I tell you, “You can smoke me, but if you smoke me, you must accept increased risk of lung cancer.” Did I take away your “free choice”?
Even if you were already addicted to me before you smoked me, would you not prefer I tell you now as opposed to not at all?
His parents can expect whatever they want. I can’t see that as racist, certainly. Or sexist, unless they would not expect the bridegrooms of their daughters to be Muslim. I don’t like their expectation, but it’s not quite these things. I don’t think it is manipulative either. Manipulative would be if they put subtle pressures on her, or pretended something else was going on. They came right out, it sounds like, with their expectation.
I agree.
I think this is a fair response.
It will be her freedom, I assume, from your perspective. Though you should also be free to express all your feeligns adn thoughts on the subject - if we are polling my opinion.
If she is an adult she gets to make really bad decisions, in my beliefs, but then you also get to go shit ripped nuts, have tantrums, be calm and rational, be manipulative, make emotional threats, pout, argue, confront and generally without violence try to prevent what you see as a mistake.
You haven’t described coercion. She may feel coerced, but they haven’t used force, you haven’t described some kind of process with pressure. It seems like they have a rigid stance. Which is their right. Your daughter has the right to be just as rigid.
The scary thing is, I guess, that she might bend under the expectations of others. This is a parental nightmare of course. I suppose if it were me, I would just express myself as much as possible and as much as she would tolerate before she ran out of the room. If I had a decent relationship with her boyfriend I might takl to him also. Do you really want her to do something she does not want to do?
I would also be concerned about her rights in Pakistan and I would be open about his also.
His current mother is Muslim, his natural mother is not.
Fj
It is. They are his choices not hers, what if I said he must convert to druidry [or any given religion], would that be his choice? Or his parents choice?
that’s a one party choice, this is a two party choice. It makes no difference if he is just telling the truth, weather its true or not it isn’t his choice to make her choice. She has told him the truth that she believes in druidry, she likes punk and rock music, she likes freedom. He has already accepted her for what she is, …it works both ways!
Polly
I’d like her to not be so controlled by chemical love, and to make rational decisions. I don’t want her to move to Pakistan, or to be Muslim ~ unless she chose to be. I cannot believe she’d choose to be that unless she WASN’T going out with a Muslim.
Prior to this they had been talking about having a non-religious marriage.
I’d be happy with them both having what belief systems they themselves wish for! Why do they have to change?
Islam sees itself as spiritually and morally superior to Western lifestyle. If both of his parents are Muslim and your daughter does not convert to Islam, she will be seen as morally inferior, because Muslim women are seen as morally superior to non-Muslim (and receive more ‘respect’ from Muslims). If she doesn’t convert, she will be a second class citizen in her new family. Even other Muslim women in the family may look down on her - until she converts. youtube.com/watch?v=hn2l5FOU75o
I don’t think he chose for his parents to expect that.
It’s not anybody’s choice except his parents for them to expect that. He’s choosing to tell her what they expect. That’s all.
I’m not going to post in this one any more. I’ve made my point very clear. You’re stubborn about villainizing this guy – villainize him because he’s muslim if you like, villainize him for misleading your daughter if you like, but don’t villainize him for, in the end, telling her the truth. That’s nonsense. If you can’t see that… And certaintly don’t villainize him for choosing his own marriage standards. Not if you’re pretending to promote “free choice.” Such double-think won’t be overlooked easily on a philosophy forum.
The pressure is surely that she cannot marry him unless she marries the religion too! The manipulation is upon her love; if you want to continue loving him, you must do x,y,z.
Indeed all parties must have an equal say ~ surely? that’s what I am asking for; free choice for all parties!
She does, but I can equally say that he is making rash decisions/bad ones. We cannot find an outcome this way, and not making an informed choice is itself making a choice; probably to go right ahead and do it.
Ask yourself where a rigid stance leads? …it’s a threat to her love for him, no! ergo to continue being with the one she loves, she has no choice but to secede to his/their demands.
Same here. No I don’t want her to do something she wouldn’t otherwise do. If it comes to it I will talk to him and the parents, he’s a cool guy and I think he’d listen unless there is too much peer pressure.
That just sucks so badly, I don’t think they are morally superior if anything we are. They don’t have the right to be like that, but as far as I know they are not fundamentalists or something. So far its all been said quite lightly.
fj
Yes. No, that’s not all is it, if the expectation becomes a demand then she has to bow to their choice, that’s not equal nor fair at all.
what!!? I actually really like him, I think you got the wrong end of the stick. He can believe in what he wants, I have a copy of the Koran so why wouldn’t I allow that?
But isn’t she free to say no? Do you think that would be coercion? This would mean he does not get to marry the woman he loves. And she is free to do this.
If she is going along with him because she knows he is rash, she will likely go on giving in to him because he is rash. I would pass this along. Why would he give up a sucessful pattern?
Of course she has a choice. If she says, I will not marry you unless it is a secular wedding and I will not move to Pakistan, is that coercion? People get to tell other people what they want and to stand by this if it is that important to them. I know women who would be absolute rigid in their stance about not becoming a Muslim, but I do not see anything wrong with their rigidity.
There is a pattern I have noticed in some traditional men. They are nice and loose and liberal before the marriage and not so after. And if they move to Pakistan, the pressure on him to keep her in line may be intense.
I have met an Egyptian Muslim married to a non-Muslim British woman, and their marriage seems to work (albeit he is not what you’d call devout). My best friend is a Jew who married a gentile, and although his mother is not accepting (she is a Jew, though both his father and stepfather are not), their marriage works. I guess it’s a question of both parties to a marriage (if it comes to that, of course) being clear about what they expect. Your daughter is perfectly entitled to say ‘I’m an equal in this relationship, and I won’t accept the strictures of a faith to which I don’t subscribe’. Sometimes practicalities mar adult relationships, and love and trust are not enough. If he’s willing to compromise, it can still work. If he’s not, she’ll be broken-hearted, but it’ll be for the best to find out sooner rather than later.
I don’t understand why? Love is a very powerful thing, if she wants to marry him then she’d ‘have to’ change. As I say I hope it wont come down to all this, and that is why I am having the debate ~ to understand the varying positions.
I’d accept it if there isn’t a whole load of poop to go with it.
She is free to say no, at the cost of her love. I think [hope] that if it came to it they would both choose otherwise and have a non religious marriage. It depends, they are both young and can easily become fanatical about these things.
that’s how it often works isn’t it, people just kinda roll with it and if she secedes to his demands she‘ll always be doing so. Probably divorce material in years to come, which is another reason why not to be rash.
The secular choice is the medium, the un-bias one. It allows them to marry freely and for neither to be coercive.
As to the move; I don’t think a gentleman would put his love in danger, neither would a father.
that’s one of my fears exactly! But it is a rash one, he is training to be a sound engineer, they have a band etc. it would be better for him to stay here as I think he’s already said. If that happens then perhaps it will temper the ‘not so after’ aspect in the equation.
I am so glad that I don’t have to deal with this in my fiance.
Were both of European culture and ethnicity. She is Italian and I am German with a sprinkle of Scottish.
Her adopted parents are Russian/Polish where we didn’t find out about her Italian origins until later after we looked up the last name of her biological parents together.
Long story…
The only thing we butt heads with is that she is a devout christian where I am a very stubborn atheist but she acknowledges and understands that she will not change my mind on it.
The lesson here is to not get involved with conflicting foreign cultures that have no chance in working out to begin with.
Were about to have a daughter of our very own soon and from when she is very young to being much older I will condition her to marry a strong European white man.
I will be upset if she does otherwise. Some say that is racist where I call that preservation replenishing our already dwindling numbers.
Yes because europeans have alway got along so well…
You Dope! This is syncrenism in action, the fact that you even ascribe to a “white” identity in anywhere but America is something that would of been seen as alien a few hundred years ago.
Yeah, but that was largely a reactionary identity, shit before you had the english descendants bitching about the irish and italians…oh and the Germans!
If she says no, is she coercing him to marry a non-Muslim woman? He loves her. Is she coercing him to disappoint his family?
I just don’t see how two free adults can start claiming coercion. She has as much power to disappoint him as he does her. I don’t like his position, but she is free to say no.
If he sits around mind fucking her, manipulating her, giving her guilt trips, getting Imams to tell her she will go to hell or whatever, this would be coercion.
This is who he is. He is a man who despite claiming not to care himself, is asking her to do something because his parents want it. Truth in advertising. She is a free woman. She can look at this and think, hey, I love this guy, but I don’t like what he is asking me to do for his parents. If she says yes, she is getting what he is - it may get worse, but frankly the warning signs are there for her to see.
If I have a used car, I mean a the exact model year, etc, you have always dreamed of and I demand a million dollars, I am not coercing you to pay me that money. I am simply making an unreasonable request. If you buy that car at that price, you cannot claim to have been coerced. I realize love is a strong emotion, but then, so is anger. There is no going around the fact that she needs to have to ability to say no to things that she does not want to do. If this guy gets hit by a bus tomorrow, she still has a major problem if she is willing to do things as if she is coerced.
Sure, and I still want to emphasize that you get to express all your feelings and thoughts, obviously. In the end, as horrifying as it is for a parent, you do not have control or responsibility any more for what she does. But you can still put out how you think and feel, as you no doubt will.
I would definitely point out to her:
your husband will be a man who is comfortable making you do things you do not want to do FOR OTHERS and likely for himself.
patterns at the beginning of relationships are signs of what is coming. If you are willing to break for ultimatims - meaning your daughter - he now knows this. He will have the upper hand in any future negotiation and marriage is all about negotiation.
if they have kids, why shouldn’t she expect his parents to get him to do things she would not like with the children? She should assume they will have power over her children. And if Pakistan is where they live, courts are going to support her parents on most issues where they might disagree.
she does not have to get married now. This is a wake up call. She can put it off and see what things seem like in a year. If he can’t wait, he doesn’t really value her as much as she does him. This will be a pattern in the marriage too.
There is no gun to her head.
This is not a digital, yes, no moment. She does not have to say yes or no now. She could say she needs time and take a lot. She could say it upset her and she needs to wait. She could say no and try to change his mind. She could say yes, but make a demand she knows he will not like or agree to, to make a point, to make future negotiations even, to be unreasonable back, whatever. She could scream at him, but neither say yes nor no.
To accept the idea that she has to accept the ultimatim to get love is to have capitulated whatever she does.
Actually, that’s BS. I know what you mean, but that’s BS. I think that word love is now covering too much ground.
It depends on what he is really like and what his main social relations are and how he responds to his family. People flip. I mean, I don’t know the guy, but I have seen this pattern a lot. It’s a bit like a longer term version of how a guy is until he gets the sex. I mean, who could ask for a nicer, more considerate person, then bam, another person appears. With some traditional men, they maintain the first character until the honeymoon is over. And not that this is a conscious, creepy choice. It seems almost hardwired in unconsciously.
None of this may apply to him, but his passing the responsibility off on his parents makes me wary that he is letting them take the blame for what he unconsciuosly wants which is for her to give up her needs and desires for him.
And someone who cannot stand up to his parents is not ready to be a full partner in a marriage.
Frankly they both sound too ‘young’.
He is claiming he is letting his parents decide for her. She is claiming, it seems, that she will have to let him decide for her.
As adults, man, this is a problem.
But as long as she stays out of pakistan, most of this is not a problem. She can get a divorce and have learned something. But in Pakistan, especially if they have kids, another story. Though with kids, there is always the issue of will he take the kids there if they have aproblem.
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And certaintly don’t villainize him for choosing his own marriage standards. Not if you’re pretending to promote “free choice.” Such double-think won’t be overlooked easily on a philosophy forum.