Monk's Wittgenstein

From Ray Monk’s biography of Wittgenstein:

[b]A recurrent theme of Wittgenstein’s lectures…was a concern to uphold against philosophers, our ordinary perception of the world. When a philosopher raises doubts, about time or about mental states, that do not occur to the ordinary man, this is not because the philosopher has more insight than the ordinary man, but because, in a way, he has less; he is subject to temptations to misunderstand that do not occur to the non-philosopher:

[i]We have the feeling that the ordinary man, if he talks of “good”, of “number” etc., does not really understand what he is talking about. I see something queer about perception and he talks about it as if it were not queer at all. Should we say he knows what he is talking about or not?

You can say both. Suppose people are playing chess. I see queer problems when I look into the rules and scrutinize them. But Smith and Brown play chess with no difficulty. Do they understand the game? Well, they play it.[/i][/b]

In my view, many philosophers [still today] wish to conflate 1] how the world works 2] a set of personal values and 3] the meaning of life as though philosophically we can actually comprise a rule book from which we can then learn to envelop these relationships rationally, logically, epistemologically—and then dispense these lessons to others didactically in venues like this.

More Monk:

[b]Wittgenstein began one lecture by reading a passage from Street and Smith’s Detective Story Magazine in which the narrator, a detective, is alone on the deck of a ship in the middle of the night, with no sound except the ticking of the ship’s clock. The detective muses to himself, ‘A clock is a bewildering instrument at best: measuring a fragment of infinity: measuring something which does not exist perhaps.’ Wittgenstein told his class that it is much more revealing and important when you find this sort of confusion in something said in a sillly detective story, than it is when you find it said by a silly philosopher:

[i]The clock becomes a bewildering instrument here because he says about it, “it measures a fragment of infinity, measuring something which does not exist perhaps”. What makes the clock bewildering is that he introduces a sort of entity which he then can’t see, it seems like a ghost.

The connection between this and what we were saying about sense data: What is bewildering is the introduction of something we might call “intangible”. It seems as though there is nothing intangible about the chair or the table, but there is about the fleeting personal experience.[/i][/b]

For literally tens of thousands of years men and women [our pre-historic ancestors] interacted socially and while they may have thought in a rudimentary sense about “the way the world works” or about accummulating a set of “personal values” or about encompassing a “meaning of life”, few would have proposed a philosophical rule book to encompass these largely analytic, linguistic, conceptual and theoretical insights. Philosophy as we know it today did not exist at all because it never occured to these folks that it would, in any essential sense, need to. Human life revolved then around subsistence and procreation and defense by and large. And it still does today when push comes to shove. Only now we have whole departments of university scholars intent on formalizing a set of, say, “critical rational” rules about it. But not really about human behavior; instead, the rules revolve around the language and concepts we use to talk about human behavior. What I try to do, however, is to suggest those conceptual and theoretical contraptions must be plugged into actual human social and political and economic interaction if they are going to be relevant to human interaction… And I propose further that when we do this the carefully calibrated conceptual contraptions often fall apart at the seams as the words become entangled in the thorns of contingency, chance and change. But that, in and of itself, ironically, may well be a very important philosophical insight. Ludwig thought it was certainly.

Which means that, in my own way, I am attempting to make philosophy a more serious endeavor because I am asking philosophers to talk about very tangible things like clocks and the very tangible reasons they were invented; and how, in turn, clocks used in, for example, the context of a contemporary modern metropolis frame time in a way that might be unintelligble to our ancient acestors. Or for contemporary aboriginal tribes in Australia.

But, like time itself, these things are far more intangable then some minds would like to admit. They cannot be understood logically or epistemologically. In fact, most of what constitutes human interaction can hardly be ensnared at all by appealing to “enduring values”. Not when the interactions revolve around that which is most crucial to human relationships—differentiating how we do think and feel and act around others and how we, perhaps, ought to instead. What are the limitations of philosophy here?

The detective was wrong.

Sure about that? There are other assumptions and views about time that make a lot of sense, one being that units of time are just imaginary constructs of the mind.

Yeah - they’re constructs of the mind, but they’re not “fragments of infinity”. Time measures change. Units of time measure change. Flowery pulp prose notwithstanding.

What has just happened here is beautiful!

Faust catches a sophisticated point about the [non?]nature of time. He then offers a reply, an explanation of time which contradicts the former, and hopes to better capture the pheonoma.

But!

Iambiguous is not here making a point about the nature of time, he or she is making a point about making points about the nature of time!

Faust’s Pulp Fiction!

The flowery pulp prose must not notwithstand!

Certainly not if Wittgenstein has anything to say about it.

Above I said something was beautiful, and beauty is an ugly thing to just throw around, so I must explain myself.

What is beautiful here is that on this ILP message board the difference between the pulp Mystery Writer and the accredited Philosopher is nil, zilch, and nada. Chalk it up to the ambiguity of high art and low art if you like, but that is the weak point.

For the academic, this might be a question of where does philosophy meet anthropology? Anthropology relies upon the informer. The member of a culture group who explains practices and traditions to the anthropologist during an interview. Contemporary anthropology, unlike colonial anthropology, considers the agency of the informer.

But there are no academics here! That is beautiful!

Why is the TV show House so effective? It plays with the Sherlock Holmes trope, in the context of a Hospital Drama. The genre of mystery, a cesspool of pulp, yields and wields a certain power over the listener. What can a mystery activate in our responses that a philosopher cannot? When an aborigine tells us about time, surely what they say will affect us differently than if Kant were to write a logically equivalent argument about the nature of Time.

But, if a medium is truly democratic, as some say the internet is, does this entail that the identity of the informer is moot? If a professor and a high school student on the ILP board have the same claim to truth-telling, does that entail the same for the aborigine and the mystery writer?

There are powerful claims of assent in Faust’s steadfast resolve to talk Time like a professional, and claims to the contrary in iambiguous’ suggestion that we take into account identity and social entailments of the speaker (if I’m getting that side right, I’m shakier there).

Interesting post, OP. Thanks.

Ummmm…Sean - I will admit that many philosophers have gotten this wrong, but Wittgy was famous for stating the obvious - when he was making sense at all. I’m not sure there was much difference between Wittgy and a pulp fiction writer. If your point (or iam’s) is that Wittgy sucked at philosophy, I agree.

A point that iambiguous has made - Warhol sucked at art, yet he was considered an artist.

Okay.

It happens.

I am Wittgenstein. That’s a sure point. I’ve said it before. What Monk had to say was pretty much right about me. Watch it, anyway.

The detective was right, the detective was wrong. Philosophically, what’s the difference?

Had the big bang not evolved into matter able to contemplate time, what would time then be? Is time a subjective point of view or do all subjective points of view about time merely reflect aspects of what time is?

Philosophically, what is time?

My point was that Warhol often approached art ironically. He would make fools out of those who probed his art by responding to their questions as though his answers could actually be rendered in the vernacular of either/or. In other words, he knew the limits of language in grappling with art. Just as, over time, Wittgenstein came to know the limits of language in grappling with philosophy.

I just try to apply this existentially to philosophy aimed at questions that revolve around is/ought.

To wit: Out in the world of actual human interaction. In particular, regarding behavior that is evaluated and judged.

I know, iam - philosophy is shit, anyway, so what difference does it make. We get it by now.

They were both frauds. And the two cases are not analogous. Visual arts are executed in nonverbal media. Philosophy isn’t.

No you don’t. Not that I have seen.

In particular what? Your second sentence isn’t even a sentence - it isn’t even a statement. There’s no subject and no verb. You are not saying anything.

Time is simply our human conceptual understanding of change…

Things change… then we measure this change by marking it with units of some kind… it really isn’t all that hard…

Time is quite hard for me.

Except when it’s soft.

I keep speculating about the limitations of philosophy and everytime I do you keep speculating this is the equivalent of equating philosophy with shit.

Okay, philosophically, define shit.

iambiguous wrote:

My point was that Warhol often approached art ironically. He would make fools out of those who probed his art by responding to their questions as though his answers could actually be rendered in the vernacular of either/or. In other words, he knew the limits of language in grappling with art. Just as, over time, Wittgenstein came to know the limits of language in grappling with philosophy.

Warhol was a fake artist. Wittgenstein was a fake philosopher. But how does one acquire the authenticity needed to propagate declamations such as these?

And visual arts once talked about—and then evaluated and judged—are going to require us to make observations deemed reasonable or not reasonable. Then we’ll need to discuss further what being reasonable and not reasonable means. Then, once again, we reach the limitations of philosophical language. And then, eventually, the limitations of language itself.

Time is, among other things, profoundly mysterious. Astrophysicists speak of the “time” when a big bang burst into existence out of “nothing at all”. Eventually this matter/energy evolved [over billions of “years”] into “minds” inside brains that are able to speculate as to what this might mean.

These minds don’t know of course but they never stop trying to to.

They measure “time” based on durations indigenous to our own unique solar system. A “time” may come however when it is measured by durations unimaginable to us now.

Then I don’t understand the question. There is no “philosophical” difference.

The detective was just wrong. Just everyday wrong. Scientifically wrong. He was wrong.

Again, I do not understand the question. They were charlatans. I can “propagate” that claim over the internet, on a message board. I just don’t know what you are talking about.

You are free to deem them the way you want.

We have. I still don’t know what you mean when you use those terms. But if we are talking about reason, then I know - I also know that reason isn’t the whole story. But we have covered this ground. You just like to pretend that we haven’t.

No. We would have reached the limits of our arguments. You don’t seem to know the difference.

Not likely. Perhaps if you gave an actual argument for your position, we’d know.

The detective: A clock is a bewildering instrument at best: measuring a fragment of infinity: measuring something which does not exist perhaps.

This is a point of view that can be construed as reasonable. And it is a poont of view that can be construed as not reasonable.

Then we are stuck.

For an actual detective, however, an understanding of time is important to the extent it facilitates being a detective.

It is time situated out in the world more so than it is time situated in her head. At least if she wants to be a sucessful detective.

iambiguous wrote:

Warhol was a fake artist. Wittgenstein was a fake philosopher. But how does one acquire the authenticity needed to propagate declamations such as these?

I am talking about the futility of knowing philosophically whether Warhol and Wittgenstein were charlatans. If we can agree on that any contention between us dissolves into a technical morass. Semantics.

To wit:

Yes, we certainly agree on that. I just acknowledge further the futility of defending either argument as though one or the other were more logical.

But then:

iambiguous wrote:

we’ll need to discuss further what being reasonable and not reasonable means.

I mean they are interchangable out in the world of existential interaction. Or, rather, that they are when evaluating and judging the moral or political worth of particular bahaviors situated in particular contexts.

One can say that Warhol was a charlatan because his art was a pale reflection of what true art is. Or one can say Warhol’s art was that of a charlatan because he was a homosexual. And I will respond by opining that one’s sexual orientation is not a reasonable measure of one’s artistic merit. That sort of conjecture seems eminently illogical to me. But what of my [or anyone’s] opinion about the relationship between Warhol’s art and “true art”? What is “reasonable” or “unreasonable” here? How useful is language in resolving this?

Same with the relationship between Wittgenstein’s philosophy and “true philosophy”.

Or the relationship between Freud’s psychology and “true psychology”.

Or the relationship between Marx’s political philosophy and “true political philosophy”.

There are just ever conflicting points of view.

You then note how I am unable to grasp the difference between the limitations of philosophical arguments here and the limitations of philosophical language [or human language] itself. This is true of course. After 2500 years [in the Western tradition] this has never been resolved. And it may well be resolved some day. But with each passing day it seems less and less likely. To me.

But then you insist I don’t even have a dog in this fight. I don’t have an argument at all.

And if you understood this in the manner in which I do I would congratulate you for catching it.

No, we’re not. Look - I’m not going to answer for everyone in the world, but time does not measure a fragment of infinity. That’s just gibberish. And if you don;t think change, or motion exists, then I invite you to stand in the middle of a highway and find out if those cars are moving.

Sure, maybe someone does think it’s reasonable that change does not exist. Are we really expected to take our cues from that person? You just aren’t taking your own experience, your own life seriously.

I agree. But this fictional one is talking nonsense.

Change is out in the world. Time is in our heads. What is your point?

What does “knowing philosophically” even mean?

Logic alone doesn’t determine the value of an argument, nor is it the seat of agreement or disagreement, usually. Agreement on the premises is what counts, usually. The “logic” part is to check to see if the statements (premises) contradict each other. The futility is not because of logic - it’s the same futility you see when a Red Sox fan and a Yankees fan argue about which team is better. That’s got nothing to do with philosophy, or with “philosophical language”.

No, they aren’t - you can’t have it both ways - you can’t complain about the limits of logic if you can’t tell me what logic is.

Or one can say “Warhol sucks” and get on with his day. Not every topic is “philosophical”. To say that philosophy cannot settle competing claims about Warhol is as true as it is inconsequential.

True? In what sense? Look - all I said was that he sucked.

It is not the purpose of philosophy to end all philosophical disputes. What in the world are you complaining about?

Tell me - what is philosophy good for?

You cannot answer for “everyone in the world” because any answer you give can be but the reflection of one particular dasein: “I”.

You still refuse to accept the implications of this, in my view. But that’s a psychological more than a philosophical complication. In my opinion.

Regarding matters such as this, “I” can only reflect the particular experiences you have had, the particular information you have absorbed, the particular relationships you have pursued that garnered one set of ideas rather than another set. And this is always subject to change as you come into contact with new experiences, people, information, ideas.

That this is less true regarding some aspects of our lives—aspects that transcend dasein and are applicable to everyone—is what is confusing you no doubt. I know this because I used to be confused too.

In any event, you can’t grasp the actual relationship between “time” and “infinity” anymore than I can. Not ontologically or teleologically. And if you think change and motion here is analogous to the change and motion observed by walking out into the middle of a busy highway then in my opinion you can’t begin to grasp the difference between what you think you know and all that can be known about these things.

What particular change at what particular time—and from what particular perspective? That is my point. Your inclination is to take change and time up to the sky-hooks, while mine is to bring them down to earth. Or so it seems to me. But I may well be misunderstanding your point.

iambiguous wrote:

I am talking about the futility of knowing philosophically whether Warhol and Wittgenstein were charlatans. If we can agree on that any contention between us dissolves into a technical morass. Semantics.

It means this: Using the tools of philosophy, can we determine who the fraudulent artists and philosophers are or is that beyond the reach of philosophy altogether?

You make the argument that Warhol and Wittgenstein are charlatans. I make the argument they are not. How then do we resolve this other than by establishing which argument is more reasonable? I believe that here and now mine is. But I always acknowledge in turn this is predicated only on the subjective vantage point of a particular dasein: “me”.

And that it can only be thus unless I hear an argument that convinces be otherwise.

The bottom line however is that establishing this is not the same as establishing whether Warhol and Wittgenstein were male or female, black or white, gay or straight.

Logic is a tool of philosophy. It establishes a rational link between a set of premises and a conclusion. Now, formal logic is not concerned with existential meaning and circumstantial context. It is concerned with analytical truths. Fine. But sooner or later with respect to arguments about Warhol, Wittgenstein and fraud the premises and the conclusions must involve the use of substantive assumptions and inferences relating to actual existential contexts. Then what? Then logic is useful only up to a point. And after that point is reached we are left with conflicting opinions that cannot be resolved.

For example, as I noted above:

One can say that Warhol was a charlatan because his art was a pale reflection of what true art is. Or one can say Warhol’s art was that of a charlatan because he was a homosexual. And I will respond by opining that one’s sexual orientation is not a reasonable measure of one’s artistic merit. That sort of conjecture seems eminently illogical to me. But what of my [or anyone’s] opinion about the relationship between Warhol’s art and “true art”? What is “reasonable” or “unreasonable” here? How useful is language in resolving this?

As I see it, saying Warhol “sucks” is different from saying he’s a “charlatan”. Different because “sucks” simply means you don’t like him. And establishing whether someone ought to like him invites considerably more inchoate arguments than in establishing whether his art is fake.

And I believe it is important to acknowledge those aspects of our lives that are beyond the reach of philosophical resolutions. And this is because they encompass what may well be the most important aspects of all: establishing what we ought to do—how we ought to behave—regarding our moral, political and asethetic interaction.

The point of the OP is merely to encourage speculation about language used by philosophers and language used by “ordinary folks” in trying to establish “meaningful knowledge” regarding their day to day lives. And it is obvious that throughout the ages philosophers have succeeded in establishing that what many “ordinary folks” believed was reasonable or unreasonable left a lot to be desired.

But: with respect to what aspects of our lives are philosophers as hopelessly entangled in uncertainty and ambiguity as are all the non-philosophers?

I don’t know the answer to that. I just like to raise the question from time to time to thwart those who insist philosophers can establish logical answers to all the questions revolving around value judgments.