Moral Constructivism v. Moral Nihilism

Moral Constructivism: The view that the validity of a moral judgement, for a giver person or group of persons, is based on whether it would be endorsed after careful reflection. (It doesn’t coform to any objective law of morality)

Moral Nihilism: Denies that there are any valid moral judgements, and holds that there is no point in duscussing, or reflection about, moral issues.

IMO the line between the two is wholely superficial, and Moral constutivism is a failed attempt to overcome Moral Nihilism.

While the moral nihilist will claim that all moral actions are neither valid nor invalid, the Constructivist will claim that some are valid and some are invalid. But when one looks closely at Moral Constructivism the validity of a moral decision does not depend on some moral standand, but rather on a logically coherent stance. For example if I were to claim that Infanticide is morally valid, the moral Nihilist would not argue with me, and would say that such a stance is as valid as any other stance. The moral constructivist however would challenge me to back up my position with logic and a coherent worldview, they would not challenge me on the ethical reality of killing babies, but would rather try to find inconsistencies within my view. If the Moral Constructivist fails in finding logical wholes, and inconsistencies within my view, then they have to accept it as a valid moral position. Moral Constructivism is not concerned with the moral validity of the position, it seems that every position is as equally valid as any other insofar as you are not misinformed on the topic, and you can defend it.

According to moral constructivism I can have any valid moral judgement as long as it is logically consistent with my other bleiefs. Morality is the whim of the individual in both moral constructivism and nihilism. In both it seems that Morality is wholely arbitrary and an irrelevant matter.

The question then becomes: What authority does logic have over moral opinion. How does someone holding contradictory positions make there view morally invalid, when morality is admittedly the persons whim. How does logical invalidity translate into moral invalidity?

IMO Constructivists are Nihilists trying to hold onto something that is left over from our days of Divine Command and Moral Realism. How can someone accept that there is no moral standard, and then claim that logical invalidity translates into Moral invalidity. It seems wholely unreasonable to apply something as structured and systematic as logic, to something that they admit is composed of personal whim and opinion.

If moral opinion is something that is arbitrary and the whim of the individual, then doesn’t it follow according to MC that every moral system is invalid, as by virtue of being moral it is illogical and based off the passions? But wait, the MC is not concerned with where the moral point of veiw came from, it is superficially and irrelevently concerned with wether or not such an opinoion is consistent with the rest of your opinions.

Any system is potentially valid in MC, and as such it seems to follow that arguing about morality(the one thing that sperates it from Nihilism) is a worthless endeavor that can yeild no results.

What arguemnt can the Constructivist have against the Nihilist?

Nih.,

What happens if after careful reflection you adopt a Moral Nihilist position? As you have described it, there is nothing in the MN position that keeps it from being a subset of Moral Constructivism.

“According to moral constructivism I can have any valid moral judgement as long as it is logically consistent with my other beliefs.”

Dunamis

Perhaps, but the MC claims that rational thought can yeild positive results. MN makes no such claim. It seems to me that MC is MN that won’t accept that moral decisions are arbitrary. And so it makes up a logical standard that tries to bring morality out of the arbitrary, but fails miserably. MC as a reaction to MN.

none. logic has no authority whatsoever…
morals can’t be valid as if they were syllogisms…
holding contradictory positions makes the holder inconsistent…
if logical invalidity translated into moral invalidity, you could do nothing,
the reason for your “moral” actions would beg the question…

if there is no moral standard, anything could be seen as immoral, valid or not…

logic is a closed circle… it doesn’t matter…

why does he need one?

-Imp

Nih.,

So the issue isn’t over rationality, but over “positive” results. Is it the MN position that all results are equivalent, none more “positive” than others? It seems that the MN position isn’t really a moral position, but relativist conclusion taken to the limit. What keeps the MN from surrendering to a simple might makes right morality. Positive results simply being those that those in power want?

Dunamis

Imp

Then you agree with my critique, and that MC fails in it’s endeavors.

According to his own theory of morality he needs one. The thing about “careful reflection”.

yes, MC fails

-Imp

Nih.,

I’m not really taking a position here, but what Nietzsche fails to accept, or at least shrinks before, is the fact that in the might makes right formula, the might of moral argumentation, in many instances, has won. To discredit this “might” as inauthentic is not to realize how mighty it really is. All one is doing when realizing in horror that the “weak” have won, is that the “weak” really have been the strongest. To inauthenticate their victory is simply an attempt to undermine power from another power base. Once victory is had, then “postive results” certainly takes on meaning, and therefore rational reflection also plays its part.

Dunamis

But what place does rational thought have in morality? The MN rejects moral systems, even might makes right. Your right to question weather or not it is a moral position, it makes no arguments or contentions about morality, it is rather the result of critiquing morality. Morality to the MN is irrelevent and arbitrary. It’s not however a reaction to morality per se, it doesn’t give morality enough credit to deserve a reaction.

Nietzsche denies the the slave morality, because of where it comes from. Keep in mind that the fact that there is prevailing morality, or that there is a widely accepted morality is irrelevant to Nietzsche. He sees morality as a psychological exercise, those who turn it into soemthing else are reactionaries. The psychology of a morality is what Nietzsche was concerned with, “might makes right” is meaningless. “Physical Might” is irrelevent to Nietzsche’s critique of morality.

Nih.,

“The MN rejects moral systems, even might makes right.”

As far as I understand it, might makes right is not necessarily a moral system, but may be understood as a description of how moral systems get put in place. What is interesting is that the “might” by how moral systems get put in place is not always with the sword. Providing coherent views of identity and obligation very probably factor in more substantially than the over-famous use of brawn.

Dunamis

Nih.,

Sorry I can’t keep up with your edits, so it looks like I am ignoring parts in my response.

“The psychology of a morality is what Nietzsche was concerned with, “might makes right” is meaningless.”

I think that the might of brawn haunts Nietzsche’s psychologies, though he will not name it. The larger point is that once might has put Ideology in power, the idea of “positive results” gains some ascendancy, and because the appearance of rationality has played a part in moral victory, to discuss and reflect on moral argument would have some meaning as well. Moral debate does not occur within a vacuum, but in the contexts of dominate cultural and hegemonic meanings. All things said, must be said in reference to them, if only in confrontation. That the MN feels compelled to discuss the issue, rather than simply acting in a nihilistic fashion, seems to me to place him within the MC camp.

Dunamis

Nih.,

“But what place does rational thought have in morality?”

I think that the strength by which moral systems “win” has, as I mentioned, much to do with fixing identities and obligation. The coherence of the worlds they present are reflected in, but not confined to, logical argumentation. So to engage a system on a logical front is to take on some of those aspects that gave it its victory, namely coherence and consistancy.

Dunamis

Dunamis

Yeah sorry, we’re posting too fast, and neither of us can keep up. The limits of an online forum?

And Nietzsche slowly slips in to the argument…Nietzsche denies might makes right, no matter what form it comes in. Infact the way you have described it appeals to Nietzsche’s “herd mentality”.

I don’t think rational discussion has any effect on those who accept the dominate moral theory. Rational discorse does not change or sway the rabble, people who insite there passions do. The morality that said person is expousing is an afterthought accepted not by its own merits, but by virtue of it being associated with a person. Discussing morality within the society at large is worthless. The appearance of rationality seems unrelated to social morality.

I don’t think Nihilists discuss the validity of moral systems themselves, but rather focus on the validity of morality itself.

Nih.,

“I don’t think rational discussion has any effect on those who accept the dominate moral theory.”

No, rational discussion does not but the impression of internal consistency does. Moral worlds are internally consistent worlds, in which rationality plays a heavy part. May I ask though, do you believe that internally consistent world views produce “positive” results, or not?

As to Nietzsche and brawn, he theoretically have been against it in some of its incarnations, but strength in the noble forms of Greek, Roman and Germanic traditions I believe heavily influenced his aesthetics. He may have had a problematic relationship to this might, but much less so than he did with Christianity and its privileging of the meek. Simply my view on him.

Dunamis

“life is the will to power and nothing besides”- Nietzsche

The Hammer Speaks

Thus Spoke Zarathustra, III: On Old and New Tablets, 29.

"“Why so hard?” the kitchen coal once said to the diamond. “After all, are we not close kin?”

Why so soft? O my brothers, thus I ask you: are you not after all my brothers?

Why so soft, so pliant and yielding? Why is there so much denial, self-denial, in your hearts? So little destiny in your eyes?

And if you do not want to be destinies and inexorable ones, how can you one day triumph with me?

And if your hardness does not wish to flash and cut through, how can you one day create with me?

For all creators are hard. And it must seem blessedness to you to impress your hand on millennia as on wax.

Blessedness to write on the will of millennia as on bronze—harder than bronze, nobler than bronze. Only the noblest is altogether hard.

This new tablet, O my brothers, I place over you: Become hard! — —"

Nietzsche was all about might making everything including but not limited to “right”…

-Imp

Imp,

“Nietzsche was all about might making everything including but not limited to “right”…”

That is a beautiful way of putting it.

Dunamis

Dunamis

Rationality has nothing to do with what one thinks is moral or not, it is not by rationale that we think infanticide is wrong, it is out of emotional response, and personal whims. However, rationality can give us consistent worldveiws, but such a worldview will be after the “moral fact”. Morality is defined for the individual prior to rationality, all rationality does is allow you to create a consistent worldview, and helps you to discover the meaning of your emotional responses. However, I see no inherent reason as to why a moral system needs to be consistent. If I believe infanticide is acceptable, but children are “innocent” and need to be protected, then so be it. If that’s what I fancy then an inconsistent worldview is perfectly okay. To say that this is wrong because it’s logically contradictory or irrational, is to forget that rationality does not define morality. It’s an attempt to turn morality into something its not; a rational endeavor.

I don’t think Nietzsche liked these things because they were strong, but rather he admired them because they allowed themselves to be strong.

Imp

I would be careful about saying this, the phrase implies political might, and Nietzsche was all about psychological and internal might. Physical strength/might seems to be missing the point.

Nih.,

I’m sorry, I didn’t get your answer to the specific question,

“Do you believe that internally consistent world views produce “positive” results, or not?”

Dunamis

Sorry, no.

Nih.,

Well then it seems it is simply a matter of aesthetics. Most composers of music would say that if you use harmonies within a musical piece you get “positive” results. Rare others would say that there are no such things as positive results achieved in this way. Cacophony, random orientations between notes, are equal to those otherwise composed. The issue cannot really be decided. I do believe that internally consistent world views do produce “positive” results. We operate better under stabilized meanings, significant identities and purposes. I would suggest though, that to be properly nihilistic, one should not have a system of no-system -which is internally consistent- but rather an internally inconsistent system, like strict Roman Catholic morality applies only on Thursdays, for no apparent reason, and Charles Manson ethics on Tuesdays. Now that would be Nihilism. Otherwise you ever risk falling into morality upon reflection, seeking positive results without realizing it.

Dunamis