For those that have a religion that believes in the rewards of an after life for those that believe in your religion. How do you resolve the morality of good caring humans souls being condemned? How can you resolve to allow them to suffer while you have happiness. I speak not of those people that are criminals or what we may say are evil or bad , but of the good caring loving kind souls that do not believe as you do.
If you stand beside your god and allow such good souls to suffer because of lack of belief in your God is that not inhumane and immoral? Why does that not make you the equivelent of Hitler or any other human that condones genocide?
Is that not a traitorous act done to your species? Why would a God accept such people as that? It makes no sense. If you are disloyal to your own species, then eventually you will be disloyal to your god if given a better offer.
No its not. This life according to religions, is temporary, the afterlife is eternity. Here in physical bodies we can only do so much on an individual basis to help each other. But to stand by and watch a creature condemn souls to an eternity from good and to watch and to actually know good caring souls are suffering deliberate punishment seems wrong and immoral. It is a main reason I no longer have religion. The immorality of not standing up for good souls as a creature punishes for non belief is far different than being resolved to pain and suffering in this life. At least in this life we reach out and try to help.
Well, then what you need is a religion that doesn’t teach that. I’m a Christian, and I don’t think there’s any good people (or bad people for that matter) in Hell. I agree with you, the idea that there’s good people suffering in Hell right now would be disconcerting and take away from the notion of a loving God if there were any truth in it.
There are Christian sects that don’t believe in Hell, if that would suit you.
Or other religions entirely.
But I think that if one accepts the notion that God is just and that God is infallible, it makes sense that there won’t be people mis-filed away in Hell. Some people have even suggested the notion of “Cryptic Christians” where they aren’t Christians in name but are in action. I’ve said before that I feel such a doctrine renders the whole idea of Christianity moot, but as a non-Christian I do rather like the inclusivist feel of it.
Wasn’t it Augustine who opined that one of the perks of being “God’s chosen” would be sitting on high and peering into the depths of hell the better to enjoy confirmation of their righteousness and the just rewards of those who sinned as unbelievers?
Doesn’t the Quran have a similar message in that unbelievers shall suffer in hell? Since christians or muslims are, and always have been a minority group in the world population at any time in recorded history, it would appear that God has chosen to condemn the majority of humanity to hellfire.
Kris, If you are a good christian or a good muslim, moral and humane treatment is reserved for those who agree with you. Regardless the charitable works of any religion, the ultimate aim is conversion, and if you can’t be converted, then to hell with you!
Condemning unbelievers to hell just comes with being part of a religion. There are no “good” humans unless they are faithful followers of your particular brand of belief.
The apparent lack of knowledge within the abrahamic religions of the Chinese peoples, the folks in the Americas, sort of undermines the monotheistic claims coming from the tiny areas that were the birthplaces of these religions. Their world view was rather myoptic. Either that, or God has blinders on.
I thank you 3 for your responses.
But, to follow any God I must deny my humanity at some point. A god requires worship, devotion and utter loyalty at the expense of others. How can one find ethics and morality in this? There may be small sects of any belief that denounce this part of religion,but still the overwhelming majority of humans seem quite comfortable to be unethical under the pretense of religious morality.
Tent, perhaps there is more to it than self righteous, there must be. It would have to take a resolve to stand by and enjoy the fact you are not suffering the fate of others for an eternity. I can’t seem to grasp it though. It, to me, seems pure evil to be able to do that., but, it is done under the guise of goodness.
Ucci and Xunzian, a religion is not what I search for nor do I search for a God. I do believe there is a superior creature that has a vested interest in humanity and this world. This and certain ideals will have to carry me through to the afterlife. Thank you for your suggestions, it is apparent niether of you could resolve this issue either. What do you know of how people resolve this, do they even think about it , do they realize it, or do they as Tent, suggests feel justified,righteous and content with such betrayal and unethical actions? I find it hard to believe but, having never gotten a straight answer from leaders in the churches I have no other clues. The use of “It is God’s will” is famous and have faith and trust. I can do none of this.
Perhaps it is fear of punishment? Fear that if they question or fight with their God they would suffer the same? That then is still unethical and immoral, betrayal and evil ,even far worse than self righteous. Do you agree or not?
I don't know where you're coming from with this. I've never heard it said that Mother Theresa was a bad Christian because she wasted time helping the sick that could have been spent in Church. To the contrary, religion to this point is still the single greatest motivation for charity and human compassion at any organized level, and people that devote themselves to helping others as she did are considered the pinnacles of human achievement within the Church. When God asks us to care for others, how is devoting to Him coming at their expense?
I thought I already gave you the straight answer. The straight answer is that the oldest, most authentic sects of Christianity never taught what you're arguing against- the idea that there's a bunch of people burning in Hell right now is a later invention, and it's not reasonable for the exact reasons that you're saying it's not reasonable, plus others besides.
You’re side-stepping the question. It isn’t about the good-done-on-earth. It is the afterlife issue that is in question. How does a religious person reconcile their belief that they go to heaven and unbelievers go to hell? Please don’t try to tell me this isn’t the common view within the abrahamic religions. There are those who are “saved” and then everyone else. Exclusiveness has its price, and the question being asked is this then, the morality of those religions?
Don’t ask me to defend something I don’t believe. If you want exposure to the ‘common view’, go to a bar. The oldest, still current Christian teachings are that currently, everybody that has died is in neither heaven nor hell awaiting judgement, and that when the world is judged, everybody will be taken into the presence of God. The only difference is how the individual will experience God’s presence, depending on how they lived in relation to Him now. I’m not making this up, and what you say are the definitive claims of western religion is irrelevant, because you don’t know.
Yes, it is the morality of some religions- most Protestants accept the notion of people we would call good ending up in Hell because they believed the wrong thing. Not that you’d be in any position to judge the socially-constructed moral system of a belief system other than your own, or anything. In fact, why aren’t you calling Kriswest to task for applying her personal moral views to the beliefs and practices of others?
“Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.” And if I don’t what is the alternative? The common view isn’t in a bar, it is inside the doors of every christian church. You’re still side-stepping the issue. OK, no one is judged yet, but the final judgement is still measured with a go-no go gauge. And please don’t tell me I don’t know the ‘definitive claims of western religion’. I was raised in it.
Thank you, but I’ll be the judge of what I can judge. If a christian can summarily damn me to hell because I have believed “the wrong thing” I’ll reserve the right to judge their “socially constructed moral system.”
The reason I don’t take Kriswest to task is that she hasn’t damned anyone to hell that I know of. Although it is possible she has a few candidates.
Mother Theresa was a rare bird and I greatly admire her. Which makes me even more curious how she can/could resolve the difference between here and her heaven. I am not judging, I am asking a question, I see it one way. I am curious how others see it another way. For me it seems unethical ,immoral and evil, I want to know why it is not. Curiosity is not judging. All that I am doing is presenting my side and wishing for others to present their perspectives,Ucci.
You already answered me with what you believe but, I asked you how do you think others see it. Honest curiosity and confusion and a lack of comprehension is all that I am presenting. No need to get up in arms and charge after me. I know you speak to many people of diverse religions as does Xunzian and Tent. You may perceive something of interest or fruitful on others perspectives, sort of like a go between if you will.
I understand the oldest never taught that. Since they don’t, they are not part of the question. It is the other religions that I question.
tentative
I’m not talking about rights, I’m talking about consistency. It’s certainly well within your rights to be completely inconsistent in when you apply your beliefs about morality.
Anyways,
“Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.”
It true, but I don’t have to tell you that no particular fate of those who don’t believe is entailed by that statement- that’s pretty basic logic.
Every Christian Church? Not the Orthodox Church. I’m not sure what you’re trying to claim here. Are you saying there’s no such thing as Orthodoxy, or that they don’t teach what I’m telling you they do, or…? Either way, you’re wrong.
But it has nothing to do with whether or not you ‘believed the right things’, as Kriswest was saying.
Sorry, you’ve played that card to it’s fullest. I have a handle on what you do, and do not, know about the Christian Church. You having been raised in whatever denomination you were raised by does not give you carte blanche to tell me “how it is” when it comes to aspects of Christianity that you clearly have no experience with. You are speaking in error, educate yourself.
In my experience the short answer to your question would be that “God knows best”. Consider the notion of “original sin”… What this basically teaches is that we are ALL sinners without exception… including Mother Theresa… If we are allowed into heaven at all… it is because of god’s infinite mercy… and this is then the point of Jesus and his promis to forgive us and redeem us if only we believe in him… and ask him for it… therefor the act of sending us to hell is not an evil act… it is not truly God’s doing… it is our own doing… Either because we denied his existence… or we were arrogant and believed ourselves to be innocent… or simply because we had hardened our hearts to his love… and thus condemned ourselves.
There are of course many different views, nearly as numerous as the christains themselves… but the “stright-out-of-the-bible” explination would be that god simply knows best and we are to trust his morals more than our own. After all… Given God exists, wouldn’t it be truly arrogant to beliee we knew better?
I really don’t give a rat what christian sect you belong to, nor do I have to know the details of every splinter. There is one little piece of Christianity that is part of ALL sects and is central to the whole. Christians, ALL christians believe in the second coming, and the judgement day where the faithful will be rewarded and the un-believers will be punished for their human ways. For all of your knowing about what I know or don’t know about christianity, you refuse to acknowledge that I might know at least that much. I’m not too bright, but bright enough to have gotten that message.
Judgement is coming at the hands of a christian God. You don’t have to be a Christian apologist to understand that. And since you favor tradition so much, read Augustine again. A revered church father in the very heart of church tradition. His views on the saved and unsaved are echoed across Christendom - including the orthodox church.
Let me give a partial example; we condemn countries that throw innocent people in jail for doing nothing more than saying the Government is wrong. To throw such a person in jail for life or for any extended period is considered evil, immoral and unethical. But turn around and it is suddenly OK for a God to do what amounts to the same thing? I can’t resolve that it is not evil immoral and unethical. Should not a god consider this? I am supposed to trust a creature that is doing what I was raised to see as wholly wrong? How? Its not arrogance to question. It is an honest question deserving of truth and honesty not faith or trust. If I do not know then I must question. Having blind faith when a perceived evil is being done is evil itself. At least that is how I believe and how I learned.
First of all, Orthodoxy isn't a splinter. Passing it off as some irrelevant exception to your rule is a further error on your part. Yes, Judgement Day is coming. Kriswest was specifically asking about people who are obviously good, going to hell because they had the wrong religious beliefs. Orthodoxy doesn't endorse this view, and acknowledges it as an error in those sects that do. The Church also doesn't teach that anybody is going to be actively punished by God, or that He has created a place of punishment like Hell.
Actually, he's considered a very controversial, borderline heretical figure in the Orthodox Church. Opinions of him have been all over the place, and someone wanting to summarize Orthodox views would be very well advised to avoid him if possible.
I feel for you here… I truly do… But it’s made out to be a question of loyalty and trust by most christians… pointing out that it’s “evil” to send someone to hell for eternity will only be viewed as a test of loyalty to the mind of a believer… it won’t alter the notion that “god knows best”. which is what you are fighting against atm.
I wish we could make it different… but we can’t… besides… these days most christians make up their own version of god independent of the bible… So far from all of them believe in Hell and damnation.
See that is just it! Loyalty… now most people have problems trusting strangers or aliens into their country or neighborhoods. Heck they will band together with sworn enemies to divest the area of a bad alien.
Then lets kick in the almost natural xenophobia we all have been raised to have some what… Gods know best by doing exactly what you know to be wrong and you are loyal to that? How? Gods are not even the same species or on the same level but, we are supposed to trust that their evil is good and for the best? the best for whom? It? Us? The universe? Punishing good kind souls can possibly benifit the universe? Us?, It? How?
do I really want to know the answer to that? Probably not but, sometimes some questions must be asked even if we don’t want the answer.
How do people resolve that trust? How do people acheive such blind faith and trust that they will turn their backs to an obvious wrong? In life they would fight the wrongness, in death they accept it? I simply don’t get it and it really does not seem a difficult question.
Is it fear? is it ego? is it a driving need to belong to a group? is it all of that?
