Moral necessity

Let me premise this response by confessing that I am extremely tired now, enough so that my thoughts are like vapor and my vision moves interchangeably between blurred and less blurred. Subsequently, I have indirectly admitted to my awareness of being in such a state while actually in such a state, and therefore must also admit that I understand I run a great risk of composing the current reponse in such a fashion as should only be read by those in a catatonic state. However, knowing such, I still aim to proceed.

Firstly, my thanks and respect to Chiron in return for his/her own same having been previoulsy extended to myself.

To address the issue you have accosted me on:

Your initial premise institutes X and Y. While I understand from the above excerpt of your response to mine that you seem to have intended X and Y to be a cohesive unit, and to so remain from conception to execution and through conclusion, this is an immpossible. Follow the logic… X is represented by “X” and Y by “Y,” and as such bear an implied independence from one another. If X and Y were a true cohesive unit, then they would be represented by a single character (i.e. X = X, Y = Y,
X + Y = Z). Essentially, in saying that if X then Y, or that X and Y are a combined absolute you have established the following… X = Y, Y = X, therefore X and Y are interchangeable. However, your initial premise implies that p seeks to justify the immorality of one by the morality of the other, namely either X or Y, respectively. This proposition gives rise to the implication that the X = Y, Y = X interchangable established values for X = moral & immoral and Y = moral and immoral, therfore the proposition violates the law of non contradiction (“one cannot say of something that is and is not in the same respect at the same time”) and hence the proposition is proved false.

If this is agreeable, then I think we have understood each other well. If my assessment of X and Y seems to be other than what you intended, then please clarify your intention…and subsequently your proposition and inference regarding the properties of X and Y. Namely, as it stands now, the proposition contains two problematic elements. First, that X and Y are an absolute cohesive (cannot exist independently) and that said cohesive has the property of being moral, and the property of being immoral at the same time; such violates the law of non contradiction. Second, that X and Y are represented by characters which implies that X and Y are unique independents, and as well that p is able to “perform X and fail to consider Y in the process” again impliying X and Y are unique independents.

As for your posts regarding the contigencies of moral acts in regards to satisfaction to be had by/in remedial acts is damn near 100%, and are at least within the outter limits of the circumfrence of the proverbial bullseye. What I advise you amend, in your own process (and maybe in your posts) is the manner in which you quantify moral acts. I would not say that moral acts are remedial whose aim is…; rather I would say that moral acts do sometimes include such remedial acts, as well as other variations as to types of actions. Morality speaks to the value or ethical property of an act, whereas remedial is an adjective which speaks to the physical (for lack of a better term) property of an act. One could think of the comparrison in almost the same sense that one would view the separation between spiritual and physical properties as identifying them to be independents, even though spiritual and physical properties can and do take existence as cohesives together. Again, barring the need for some minor linguistic corrections, you are dead-on in your assessment.

I would also recommend you make efforts to clarify the relationship between moral acts (or consequences) and the satisfaction of one’s expectations. For example, I might expect that a doctor performing surgery on my wife following an life threatening condition will save (preserve/continue) her life (X). In so expecting, I also establish the implied expectation that a doctor who performs to protocol and to the pinnacle of medical skill, then said doctor can save lives (Y). However, it is possible for expectation Y to be achieved independently without achieving expectation X, and so it is (or should have been) with your proposition. Moral acts and vis a vis moral consequences are not contingent upon expectations. Morality is an absolute, whereas human expectation is a subjective variable.

If a trusted source tells you they sat in audience at play Z being performed at a local theater, and said source convinces you that the play was poorly put together, the acting was terrible, the dialogue unrealistic, you have formed an opinion. For this premise your opinion is consistent with the description given by your trusted source, the play was bad when measured by the criteria of what makes a play good. The next day you attend said play and sit in audience of it, your expectation was that the play would be bad. After watching said play you find that you now have an opinion which is completely opposite of your previous opinion of said play. The staging was perfect, the acting superb, and the dialogue struck you as a dramtical mirror of your own life. The play was great!

If your original proposition were true, then your expectation that play Z was bad would have been causality for play Z to actually be bad. However, play Z was great and your expectation was in error.

More acurately, moral consequence is based on the satisfaction, not of human expectation, but rather on the satisfaction of the criteria for morality, wether said satisfaction was expected or not.

You are correct in your assertion that barber X is commiting an act of immoral consequence by intentionally disregarding the wishes of customer Y. The following paragraph is in support of your position, and in response to the post challenging said position.

While X may posses a liking and preference for a mohawk hairstyle, he cannot superimpose said hairstyle on Y without commiting an immoral act and thereby an immoral consequence. X’s liking and preference for said hairstyle is based on a subjective variable, and therefore bears no authority of Y’s liking and preference for a non-mohawk hairstyle. For X to superimpose a mohawk haircut on Y, X must violate the law of non contradiction, since X enacts method (r) as a result of the subjective variable of his liking and prefering a mohawk hairstyle over any other, and the cosequence (a) violates the identically subjective variable whereby Y likes and prefers a non-mohawk hairstyle. In violating the law of non contradiction, whereby the subjective variables of X and Y render consequence (a) immoral and moral at the same time, the proposition that the subjective preference of X can morally attain authority over the subjective preference of Y is proved false.

I’d now like to address the argument regarding semantics posed by Impenitent. Again, you (Chiron) are dead on. Impenitent is arguing only on the grounds of linguistic variations, and subsequently skepticism. To clarify the point you have already made successfully, I would add that Impenitent is using the “dated” skeptic assertion that we cannot know anything to be true or false for certain. However, in making said assertion
Impenitent has claimed that the assertion is true, but that we cannot know whether it is true or false. As such, Impenitent has created a circular reasoning as well as violated the law of non contradiction, and therefore negated his/her own argument.

I hope this response will hold some value to you, and I look forward to are next e-meeting!

Take care
-The Author

Thanks for an absolutely superb and helpful response. I’ll look more closely at the issues you raised, and I’ll try and put this into formal logic to sort out more clearly what I’m trying to express (and indeed if it is expressible).

if only I had…

searle is wrong about several things…

it is a fact therefore you ought to name it such?

nope…

-Imp

Please. When you’ve graduated from high school philosophy, perhaps we can have a sensible chat.

Says the person resorting to ad hoc ad hom…

If I’m dealing with somebody who insists on soiling my discussion with irrelevant nonsense, then I think I’m entitled to disegnage with him until his knowledge base has has widened a bit.

irrelevant? your claim is that one “ought” to act according to how one is defined (by the mob).

I think that is garbage.

disagree all you like, but you have yet to prove your case.

-Imp

Prove my case? Heh, you have yet to make one. The intentional is normative, and this idiotic assumption of yours, that all our assertoric discourse is purely descriptive, just reeks of that obnixiously ill-informed “I’ve just finished Sophie’s World” attitude one encounters from high school freshmen.

Your discussion? I wasn’t aware that private property rights existed with regard to conversations. An ‘idiotic assumption’ on your part, perhaps.

As to Imp - he’s backed up his argument and told you of a philosopher to read whose work directly bears on this conversation (Hume). For you to talk of his knowledge base widening when you aren’t even familiar with arguments that have existed for 2 centuries (if not longer) is ludicrous. Trust me, Imp’s a lot more experienced in philosophy that some freshman who has just finished Sophie’s World…

Yes, my discussion. I started it.

He’s backed up nothing. He has at once undermined the epistemological basis of normative assertions, and made normative judgements, by appealing to such assumptions. The issue of is-ought does not apply to institutional and intentional facts, in the same way that it applies to the quesion of assigning value to “facts”. There is an altogether different soluiton to the latter issue. Hume’s philosophy on the issue has many more possible solutions now, in analytic and postmodern epistemology, than was considered when he was writing. If impenitent has read some, then he ought to read more: try Wittgenstein, Austin, Hartmann, Searle, Quine, Hare and others. An ipse dixit appeal to Hume is not going to get you out of this one.

Ho ho! Believe me, I am familiar with them. You don’t get a first from Cambridge without that kind of background knowledge. Indeed, part of my objection to Impenitent’s impudence, is that the argument has existed for two centuries, but it has not been left untouched for two centuries. Not all assertions are purely descriptive, and the assignment of value, especially in institutional and conventions-based systems (as language is), is not necessarily a descriptive process. But some people here seem to have ended their philosophical education in 1740.

while others continue to repeat the mistakes of the past under the guise of being new and improved…

-Imp

It doesn’t even apply here. That’s my point. Refuting Hume was never my objective: challenging your pointless introduction of Hume to certain aspects of this discussion, on the other hand, is something that is worth doing. If you’re aware of what it is you’re trying to achieve in a transaction, then what you ought to do can be inferred from intention, as intention by definition has purpose. I can’t imagine anybody now seriously speaks of value facts as though they are waiting to be discovered in the corner of the universe (in which case Hume’s objection would certainly apply). But again, neither are computers, or automobiles, or chess, or music. People like you take us off the rough ground, and onto slippery ice, in the search for meaning. We need friction, so back to the rough ground. One can’t sh*t higher than one’s own arse, but you seem to be trying awfully hard. You implicitly paralyse any possible thought (and indeed presume this discussion to be a philosophical impossibility) by your thinking.

My increasingly irate response in this thread, was due to your smug and unhelpful, not to mention unconstructive contributions. Rather than seeking to explain your objections in detail, or restating mine so that we could understand them from the same point, you simply kept throwing all sorts of pithy, curt, and opaque comments. So you are perfectly entitled to go on and rave all you want; I am content to continue the discussion with more charitable interlocutors.

yes, singing to the choir is far easier…

-Imp

You get a lot further in getting people to “question their assumptions” when you’re not rude and opaque. And what’s “truth” got to do with this?

Or getting your mod buddies to stick up for you when you’re choking on your own logic?

I did no such thing…

-Imp

Doesn’t such an absolute assertoric statement violate your own logic? “I have exchanged with you once on a discussion board, therefore you must think you have all the answers, therefore you believe you have all the answers”.

Not sure how “whatever will be shall be” adds anything at all to this discussion, but I certainly didn’t/don’t “believe I had/have all the answers”, but I am quite clear on what a barber does, and what a doctor does. As I am quite clear what the rules of chess are. Why/if they should be like (heck as a quietist, I don’t think that’s even a worthwhile discussion in a general philosophical sense) that is another discussion altogether. But so long as they are, the proof is in the pudding. You, on the other hand, are being wilfully contrary even about such basic facts. According to you, like I said, we shouldn’t be able to communicate here. If anybody is being an arrogant smart arse it’s you.[/i]

Ok, this thread grows faster than I read it, but I promise next time I post I’ll read it all.

From what I’ve got till now, Chiron is saying when we do something, we ought to take into account the consequences. Why do we need to do such? And even if we have to (as in, it’s “right”), how can we tell what’s right and what’s wrong?

From what I’ve got too, when our actions affect someone else, we take into account their view too, right? But why should we? And isn’t that a convention anyway?

Most important - if morals aren’t a convention (as in, we humans make, in the terribly wrong view of our race as “unnatural”), what makes it such? For it to be so, a Universal must exist, that applies to everyone, do you believe in such Universal? What is it for you?

For me, moral, etc, are all cultural, thus conventional (what doesn’t mean we must disregard those).

communication is not exact…

-Imp

Most of the thread has so far been aimed at trying to establish the notion of “doing something well” as the justification for moral judgements. I have not really even touched on purely moral subjects (I would have if I hadn’t had to contend with certain ridiculous objections). I believe that moral propositions are in a sense “axiomatic” products of human intentionality, in which case it would, in my mind, make it a logical necessity to justify and test moral judgements in a very specific way.

Yes, sure, this shows I have ALL the answers…

There is, you choose not to believe it’s there, or rather refuse to understand in what sense it is “there”.

You have a ridiculous and dated notion of what normative epistemology seeks to do. It does not essentially speak about ontological entities, but about verbal, cognitive and emotional realities. Normative propositions are frequently expressive not essentially “descriptive”.

According to you it is impossible.