Mortal gods before zoroaster

[Dan1 (Dan~)]

In early religion, it was not inconceivable that the gods made mistakes and could even die.
For some reason that became an illogical idea. The idea of a single god’s infinite power seems to have become so rationalized and it tries to stomp out early religion in general. I happen to believe in multiple mortal, partial, imperfect creators. That seems to make allot more sense to me than a single infinite being. There’s been a moral inversion here. Who already saw it?

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

@Dan~

In early religion, it was not inconceivable that the gods made mistakes and could even die.
For some reason that became an illogical idea. The idea of a single god’s infinite power seems to have become so rationalized and it tries to stomp out early religion in general. I happen to believe in multiple mortal, partial, imperfect creators. That seems to make allot more sense to me than a single infinite being. There’s been a moral inversion here. Who already saw it?

Good topic Dan.

If you look into the history of monotheism you’ll find that from its beginning it hasn’t been very tolerant at all toward other gods and other religious beliefs.

And your asking about other gods before Zoroaster. When was Zoroaster?

[Dan1 (Dan~)]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroaster

Religions were like city-states, each was unique, and it had its own group.
Like a conqueror, Zoroaster tried to centralize religion.
Monotheism is a religion of conquest and conversion, or it was.
Now it is a shell.

Religion is also human. That means it makes moral demands. If you try to kill it, it will fight back. But if it is changed gradually, it wont fight or notice it.

[James_S_Saint]

The date of Zoroaster, i.e., the date of composition of the Old Avestan gathas, is unknown. Classical writers such as Plutarch proposed dates prior to 6000 BC.[9] Dates proposed in scholarly literature diverge widely, between the 18th and the 6th centuries BC.[10]

Until the late 17th century, Zoroaster was generally dated to about the 6th century BC, which coincided with both the “Traditional date” (see details below) and historiographic accounts (Ammianus Marcellinus xxiii.6.32, 4th century AD). However, already at the time (late 19th century), the issue was far from settled.

The “Traditional date” originates in the period immediately following Alexander the Great’s conquest of the Achaemenid Empire in 330 BC. The Seleucid kings who gained power following Alexander’s death instituted an “Age of Alexander” as the new calendrical epoch. This did not appeal to the Zoroastrian priesthood who then attempted to establish an “Age of Zoroaster.” To do so, they needed to establish when Zoroaster had lived, which they accomplished by counting back the length of successive generations[11] until they concluded that Zoroaster must have lived “258 years before Alexander.” This estimate then re-appeared in the 9th- to 12th-century texts of Zoroastrian tradition,[c] which in turn gave the date doctrinal legitimacy, especially since it was made plausible also by the observational history of the Pleiades in the Geoponica that indicates Zoroaster as a principal source of some observations. In the early part of the 20th century, this remained the accepted date (subject to the uncertainties of the ‘Age of Alexander’[d]) for a number of reputable scholars, among them Hasan Taqizadeh, a recognized authority on the various Iranian calendars, and hence became the date cited by Henning and others.

By the late 19th century, scholars such as Bartholomea and Christensen noted problems with the “Traditional date,” namely in the linguistic difficulties that it presented. The Old Avestan language of the Gathas (which are attributed to the prophet himself) is still very close to the Sanskrit of the Rigveda. Therefore, it seemed implausible that the Gathas and Rigveda could be more than a few centuries apart, suggesting a date for the oldest surviving portions of the Avesta of roughly the 2nd millennium BC.

Although, at the core, the Greeks (in the Hellenistic sense of the term) understood Zoroaster to be the “prophet and founder of the religion of the Iranian peoples” (e.g. Plutarch Isis and Osiris 46-7, Diogenes Laertius 1.6–9 and Agathias 2.23-5), “the rest was mostly fantasy.”[31] He was set in the impossibly ancient past, six to seven millennia before the Common Era, and was variously a king of Bactria, or a Babylonian (or teacher of Babylonians), and with a biography typical for every Neopythagorean sage, i.e. a mission preceded by ascetic withdrawal and enlightenment.[31]

Most importantly however, was their picture of Zoroaster as the sorcerer-astrologer non-plus-ultra, and indeed as the “inventor” of both magic and astrology.

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

@James S Saint

The date of Zoroaster, i.e., the date of composition of the Old Avestan gathas, is unknown. Classical writers such as Plutarch proposed dates prior to 6000 BC.[9] Dates proposed in scholarly literature diverge widely, between the 18th and the 6th centuries BC.[10]

Until the late 17th century, Zoroaster was generally dated to about the 6th century BC, which coincided with both the “Traditional date” (see details below) and historiographic accounts (Ammianus Marcellinus xxiii.6.32, 4th century AD). However, already at the time (late 19th century), the issue was far from settled.

The “Traditional date” originates in the period immediately following Alexander the Great’s conquest of the Achaemenid Empire in 330 BC. The Seleucid kings who gained power following Alexander’s death instituted an “Age of Alexander” as the new calendrical epoch. This did not appeal to the Zoroastrian priesthood who then attempted to establish an “Age of Zoroaster.” To do so, they needed to establish when Zoroaster had lived, which they accomplished by counting back the length of successive generations[11] until they concluded that Zoroaster must have lived “258 years before Alexander.” This estimate then re-appeared in the 9th- to 12th-century texts of Zoroastrian tradition,[c] which in turn gave the date doctrinal legitimacy, especially since it was made plausible also by the observational history of the Pleiades in the Geoponica that indicates Zoroaster as a principal source of some observations. In the early part of the 20th century, this remained the accepted date (subject to the uncertainties of the ‘Age of Alexander’[d]) for a number of reputable scholars, among them Hasan Taqizadeh, a recognized authority on the various Iranian calendars, and hence became the date cited by Henning and others.

By the late 19th century, scholars such as Bartholomea and Christensen noted problems with the “Traditional date,” namely in the linguistic difficulties that it presented. The Old Avestan language of the Gathas (which are attributed to the prophet himself) is still very close to the Sanskrit of the Rigveda. Therefore, it seemed implausible that the Gathas and Rigveda could be more than a few centuries apart, suggesting a date for the oldest surviving portions of the Avesta of roughly the 2nd millennium BC.

Although, at the core, the Greeks (in the Hellenistic sense of the term) understood Zoroaster to be the “prophet and founder of the religion of the Iranian peoples” (e.g. Plutarch Isis and Osiris 46-7, Diogenes Laertius 1.6–9 and Agathias 2.23-5), “the rest was mostly fantasy.”[31] He was set in the impossibly ancient past, six to seven millennia before the Common Era, and was variously a king of Bactria, or a Babylonian (or teacher of Babylonians), and with a biography typical for every Neopythagorean sage, i.e. a mission preceded by ascetic withdrawal and enlightenment.[31]

Most importantly however, was their picture of Zoroaster as the sorcerer-astrologer non-plus-ultra, and indeed as the “inventor” of both magic and astrology.

How do we separate legend from fact. Finding the historical Zoroaster is like trying to find the historical Jesus … only harder …

[James_S_Saint]

@V-OutOfTheWilderness

How do we separate legend from fact. Finding the historical Zoroaster is like trying to find the historical Jesus … only harder …

“Fact”??
Since when did facts change anyone’s mind about anything?

[Dan1 (Dan~)]

@James S Saint

@V-OutOfTheWilderness

How do we separate legend from fact. Finding the historical Zoroaster is like trying to find the historical Jesus … only harder …

“Fact”??
Since when did facts change anyone’s mind about anything?

Facts would effect V-OutOfTheWilderness. That is someone.

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

@Dan~

@James S Saint

@V-OutOfTheWilderness

How do we separate legend from fact. Finding the historical Zoroaster is like trying to find the historical Jesus … only harder …

“Fact”??
Since when did facts change anyone’s mind about anything?

Facts would effect V-OutOfTheWilderness. That is someone.

Don’t confuse me with the facts???

Anyway, who were the gods before Zoroaster? If Zoroaster was a 5th century prophet, wouldn’t have the Jewish God been before, and the Canaanite gods also before … and also the Egyptian and Hindu gods? I don’t know. I’m just guessing. That’s why I asked when Zoroaster lived … we have to determine that, before we can identify the gods that came before Zoroaster.

[Maia]

@V-OutOfTheWilderness

Don’t confuse me with the facts???

Anyway, who were the gods before Zoroaster? If Zoroaster was a 5th century prophet, wouldn’t have the Jewish God been before, and the Canaanite gods also before … and also the Egyptian and Hindu gods? I don’t know. I’m just guessing. That’s why I asked when Zoroaster lived … we have to determine that, before we can identify the gods that came before Zoroaster.

Zoroaster lived well before the creation of the Jewish concept of god, and is rightly regarded as the founder of monotheism. Whole sections of his theology were later incorporated into Judaism. I recommend “Apocalypse: A History of the End of Time” by John Michael Greer for a very interesting discussion of these matters.

[Ierrellus]

The OT was written, most probably circa 2000 BCE. Even if it contains an older oral tradition, it does not reach back to a time before Zoroaster. Homer’s work does.

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

@Maia

@V-OutOfTheWilderness

Don’t confuse me with the facts???

Anyway, who were the gods before Zoroaster? If Zoroaster was a 5th century prophet, wouldn’t have the Jewish God been before, and the Canaanite gods also before … and also the Egyptian and Hindu gods? I don’t know. I’m just guessing. That’s why I asked when Zoroaster lived … we have to determine that, before we can identify the gods that came before Zoroaster.

Zoroaster lived well before the creation of the Jewish concept of god, and is rightly regarded as the founder of monotheism. Whole sections of his theology were later incorporated into Judaism. I recommend “Apocalypse: A History of the End of Time” by John Michael Greer for a very interesting discussion of these matters.

As I understand it the date for Zoroaster are all over the place, and believers date him way earlier - as believers are prone to do - skew the record.

So besides the book reference – thanks – where is your documentation?

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

@Ierrellus

The OT was written, most probably circa 2000 BCE. Even if it contains an older oral tradition, it does not reach back to a time before Zoroaster. Homer’s work does.

Again, where’s your documentation? … I’m trying to learn here.

[Maia]

@V-OutOfTheWilderness

@Maia

@V-OutOfTheWilderness

Don’t confuse me with the facts???

Anyway, who were the gods before Zoroaster? If Zoroaster was a 5th century prophet, wouldn’t have the Jewish God been before, and the Canaanite gods also before … and also the Egyptian and Hindu gods? I don’t know. I’m just guessing. That’s why I asked when Zoroaster lived … we have to determine that, before we can identify the gods that came before Zoroaster.

Zoroaster lived well before the creation of the Jewish concept of god, and is rightly regarded as the founder of monotheism. Whole sections of his theology were later incorporated into Judaism. I recommend “Apocalypse: A History of the End of Time” by John Michael Greer for a very interesting discussion of these matters.

As I understand it the date for Zoroaster are all over the place, and believers date him way earlier - as believers are prone to do - skew the record.

So besides the book reference – thanks – where is your documentation?

Most reference works place Zoroaster between about 1200 and 1000 BC.

[Ierrellus]

Mea culpa. The OT was written down after the reign of David, circa 1,000BCE; the same dating is given for Zoroaster.
Wiki dates Homer at circa 850BCE. So who were the gods before Zoroaster, David and Homer wrote of them?

[Hobbes_Choice]

@Dan~

In early religion, it was not inconceivable that the gods made mistakes and could even die.
For some reason that became an illogical idea. The idea of a single god’s infinite power seems to have become so rationalized and it tries to stomp out early religion in general. I happen to believe in multiple mortal, partial, imperfect creators. That seems to make allot more sense to me than a single infinite being. There’s been a moral inversion here. Who already saw it?

So which gods died?

[Ierrellus]

Gilgamesh dates to 2500 BCE. What were his gods?

[Hobbes_Choice]

@Ierrellus

Mea culpa. The OT was written down after the reign of David, circa 1,000BCE; the same dating is given for Zoroaster.
Wiki dates Homer at circa 850BCE. So who were the gods before Zoroaster, David and Homer wrote of them?

Your biblical dating, whilst “traditional” is likely to be false.

There are serious problems with dating the OT texts, and even more problems with the stories written about.
But I suppose that’s for an other thread.

As for the OP, As there was so little writing before Zoroaster (circa 1,800bce?). Talking about gods that pre-date Z, is highly problematic too.

[Maia]

@Ierrellus

Mea culpa. The OT was written down after the reign of David, circa 1,000BCE; the same dating is given for Zoroaster.
Wiki dates Homer at circa 850BCE. So who were the gods before Zoroaster, David and Homer wrote of them?

The Old Testament was written long after David. It probably dates from after the Babylonian Exile, when the Jews were subjects of the Persons. Who were Zoroastrians.

[Ierrellus]

While I agree that the BCE datings are next to impossible to narrow down, Gilgamesh appears to include the oldest written ideas about gods.

[Maia]

@Ierrellus

While I agree that the BCE datings are next to impossible to narrow down, Gilgamesh appears to include the oldest written ideas about gods.

Not monotheistic gods though, which I thought was the question. Egypt has records of gods that predate Zoroaster by 2000 years.