Mystics and science.

This is inspired by some posts I’ve read here, regarding qi and many of the natural science debates blending with metaphysics.

(NOTE: Not an historical conversation. Just my creative elaboration.) A famous example of the dilemma would be between Plato and Aristotle. Plato says “look to the heavens, and look for the greater fundamental truth. The light behind the shadows.” Aristotle says “dreamy wonderland hasn’t progressed like my reliable calculation. Vague stories inspire the dark age.” Plato retorts: “Your assumptions will bear little fruit in the longrun if you collapse everything into a meaningless feed of data.”

A more modern continuation of this argument- Einstein: “God does not play dice with the universe.” Niels Bohr: “Stop telling God what to do.”

There’s a psychological capacity and security when you can suspend some belief to imagine, and appreciate your environment, to progress. There’s also the scientiffic problems that evoke a great deal of mysticism. Are the strange proposals like Masaru Emoto’s ice crystals all hoaxes? We can’t fit the universe into Newton’s euclidian determinism. Likewise, we can’t make our lack of knowledge a convenience for our assumptions.

So, then, where do you draw your line? I’ll tell where I draw mine.

I take the doctor’s pill and tell everyone else with a physical problem to go to the doctor. When I want to accomplish something, I talk to an economist or something like one. When someone mentions a problem with “the system” I tell them they should consult a lawyer. (If the lawyer can’t help, they can refer them to an ombudsman or the like). If they simply lack faith in the law altogether- there’s market for that too.

When it comes to religious people and churches, I drop by and say “how’s it going?” or I tell them their views are interesting. Does that mean I exude myself as an atheist? Nothing wrong with that, but O contraire.

Think of scientology. Created by a science-fiction writer. So many million people still can be wrong. But if we disbelieve scientologists, can we still consider that there’s a need they’re trying to fulfill? In essence, I think that there is some reason behind using fiction we’re enthusiastic about to explain our daily lives. My metaphysical reality becomes tolkienesque. I worry that orcs and goblins are taking over our middle-earth, and that the importance for the future is in defense of places like the shire. I’ve never actually seen an orc in front of me, but they’re there somewhere.

These beliefs treated wrongly can make us demonize people for no good reason. That with some economic opportunity is the main cause for full-scale war. People recognizing “orcs” around them makes for an unhospitable home and greater crime. Still, I can make up for my lack of discipline in ethics and statistics by grounding myself in ideologies of good and evil. It’s admittedly wrong, but I believe in those good and evil. I also remember that it’s not prudent to automatically take up arms for war. Very effective people often concern themselves with trivial things like a cup of tea.

Do I hold a solid line between real earth and fictitious middle-earth? not quite. I know the difference, but I have faith that belief in things has a subtle yet direct impact on reality. As Darwin suggested, animals can’t all simply metamorph by will, but their mutation was more than natural selection. It was also their will and belief in things during life to make something. They may have instinctively wanted to fly consistently, generations onward.

Just as our will to believe, say, a giant peach in the sky doesn’t create one. But it projects something into the universe which mysteriously - maybe millennia later- will suggest anomalous results related to our belief. My only reasoning, which is nothing short of wild elaborations from quantum entanglement, is that there’s utility in thought projection. In thinking for its own sake, rather than sole ingenuity.

Does that make me a nutcase? You’re welcome to say so, I won’t be offended. You might have an interesting alternative.

Data by itself is usually not terribly meaningful. It needs to be placed within a context, and that context is a semiotic construction. When that context leads to a predictive and consistent process, it can be said to be ‘useful’. Is that process necessarily the truth? No, but it is certainly closer to the truth than non- or less-useful systems.

That context normally draws on a certain amount of metaphysical assumptions. Most of those assumptions are ‘common sense’ type observations made by great thinkers long before data-acquisition methods had become sufficiently advanced and became integrated into culture. But hey, you have to start from somewhere and those early attempts at explaining the universe both gave rise to and shaped our modern methodologies for understanding the way it all works.

The danger, of course, is in retreating away from the linkage of data to this system. Creating a metaphysical system is interesting and all – but where is the use in a dataless system?

people who follow strict belief systems tend to ignore that which lies beyond that system, religions bring ignorance the same way as science brings sceptics, neither of which are useful.

in my oppinion data is used to measure observation of incidance, theories are used to describe these incidances, the data provides a point of referance to the nature of the incidance with this measurment but does not define it.

the truth behind an incidance comes from observation and not from data, or from belief, classic example being gravity, an object falls and increaces speed as it gets closer to the ground, this is the observation,

the data will tell you that the acceleration is 9.81m/s2, and the theory is that all objects with mass attract to eachother. but the truth of the matter is much closer to the observarion. the rest is simply speculation.

That being said I have more use for metaphysics than for hardline scheptics because it is more inclined to see beyond a set system and open to the posability of the unknown. Just as I have more use for philosophy than I do for religion for the same reason.

peace

Absolutely.

Of course, I do wonder . . . how possible is it that eventually an elaborate amount of calculation involving quantum physics could take everything that I enjoy or find meaningful . . . and reduce it into functions of particle motion and energy fluctuation which makes the particles.

Maybe we’re not in a raw deterministic universe, and if not maybe there is still more than a “truly random” to us. But I wonder if words are still a primitive means of interpreting functions.

Philosophy of language. I’m trailing off topic.

My answer to how situation that you described can occur is simply networking.

I talk about my feelings in this situation in a variety of other threads, such as the ‘Materialism’ thread and the ‘God does not explain’.

Now, when it comes to the determinism vs. reductionism, I think it can be explained by degrees of freedom. When you start multiplying all the degrees of freedom that are available in any given situation, you get pretty large numbers.

So, this is where people start to talk about quantum fields collapsing, given the sheer number of possibilities, we can only really be sure what is going to happen after it happens. Now, the question is whether quantum fields best describe our day-to-day actions or whether that is a touch grandiose.

So, let’s run with that metaphor for a moment, classical physics deals with large things and can explain them consistently and regularly. Quantum physics deals with very small things and it is wild and unpredictable. I think that this idea can be applied to human behaviours as well. If I look at a person, who I know, and you ask me to describe what he did that week, even though I might not have spoken to him, I can do it pretty well. If you ask me what he is doing that moment, then I am pretty much screwed.