Nationalism and Modernity

Recently Prof. Crane over at Useless Tree has been thinking a lot about nationalism. Specifically, how it relates to China and how Chinese philosophy relates to nationalism. I thought some of his posts would be a good jumping off point for discussion so I’ll provide them:

So, do we agree with Gellner’s hypothesis? That the order is: modernization → nationalism → nation? And do you agree that such an ordering can be applied to China and other East Asian countries? Japan, certainly. The Meiji Restoration nicely follows Gellner’s path. However, I’m not sure that the same analysis could be applied to China, Korea, or Vietnam. I suppose that Sonderweg-theory could be applied to the first three. The quasi-nationalism of the elites in those countries paved the way for a half-modernized country with nationalistic elements but fundamentally divided. That could explain some of the tensions that all those countries are experiencing. Granted, colonialism also throws some vinegar into the mix since you’ve got nationalists who define themselves as being opposed to the colonizers but it is also the colonizers that make modernity a possibility.

Are these created symbolic orders entirely artificial or do they represent a fundamental means of human interaction? If they do in fact need to be re-learned with every generation then why do these same orders repeat themselves throughout human history? Whence moral grammar?

Also, how would we apply the order of nationalism → modernization? Again, you’ve got China with its arch-conservative sonderweg. That would seem to mess it up no matter the order applied. But in the case of Korea and Vietnam, I think this order could be said to make more sense. To overcome the colonial experience and experience mastery on their own terms, the nationalism of both lead to moderization. The same system could be applied to other countries like Malaysia and Singapore as well. But then you’ve got Japan. I suppose it could be argued that the nationalism that lead to the Meiji Emperors assuming ultimate power could be argued as preceding Japanese modernization. I’d need to look at some dates before I made a firm conclusion there.

Is nationalism a parareligion that serves to provide a cocktail of immortality? I can agree that both nationalism and religion can both serve to manufacture the created symbolic order mentioned above. Or at least they are involved in the execution of that created symbolic order. But if that were true, what would that do to the date of modernization? You’ve got clear religious alliances dating way back! Look at Europe in the Middle Ages. It wasn’t called “Europe” it was called “Christendom” and there was a pan-Christian religious nationalism that is similar in tenor to the current pan-Islamic nationalism espoused by organizations like Hamas and Al Qaeda.

Tricky, tricky.

One topic that I think relates well to this discussion is nationalism, modernity, and racism. The nation-state is regarded as a rather critical component of modernity but in many cases the “self determination of nations” that lead to the development of the nation state was driven by creed, race, ethnicity, language, and a variety of other concerns that are presently regarded as less-than-noble. Historically speaking that is, but is this situation necessary? At their base, are all nations driven by this sort of crass identity politics and if so what can be done about it, if anything?

Xunzian:

This attempts to address your second post in this thread. The issue goes all the way back to earliest humans where the pack at one watering hole were considered to be “more worthy” or “more human” than another pack at another watering hole. And fundamentally I don’t see the issue being of political nations so much as the conflict of individual societies. Historically what we’ve in fact seen is a trend of “inclusion” causing societies to grow from watering hole packs to something nearly including all of humanity. It is that trend that offsets what at least from a political dimension is called nationalism, a social subset can be identified as racism, but what ultimately can be described in general as the perception of social membership and, as a corollary, who are the right holders. The Mayans felt they could subjugate other peoples and brutally cut out their hearts because at a fundamental level the society determines who is a rights-holder and people outside the society are not considered to have the same rights or are not as “human”. As the web of “likening” oneself to others outside of a given society grows, whether its from empathy or some other motive, more people are considered part of the society. “Evil” can come from acts done by “outsiders” against the society, but it can also arise from perceived excessiveness in promoting exclusion (i.e. the Nazis).

Therefore as societies develop, there is an interplay between the perceived “evil” of the acts of outsiders and the perceived “evil” in identifying too many outsiders in the first place. Nationalism tends toward a political flavor of the former. But even if there were a one-world state, there would still be outsiders; they would be criminals who reject the rules of membership.

Having said all this, I don’t see the development of a society as “driven by creed, race, ethnicity, language, and a variety of other concerns.” Under the perspective above, society actually starts and is drivent from a primitive and narrowly defined form of “inclusion”, but it is inclusion nonetheless. It may start from the motive of self-preservation but evolves into a sense of one’s individual value within a social context. It is certain failures to include that the less-than-noble comes into play. The growth of a society is the continued folowering of inclusion, stripping away gradually at the exclusions.

I can agree with what you are saying, anthropologically; however, I was thinking more about the “nation” as in a the modern nation-state as opposed to pre- or half-modern configurations.

Look at the Europeans who invented modernity. The old states were comprised of a variety of different cultures, languages, races, creeds, the whole deal. The only thing holding them together was the old game. The republican challenge to the old autocracies was based on a rather narrow cultural identity. We can point to Austro-Hungary falling apart, but there is also the Netherlands/Belgium split substantially earlier. When the French created the modern French state (not a republican adventure, but it had many of the same principles) they kicked out the Heugonauts and the like to create a solid Catholic French identity. Likewise, England started to become recognizable to moderns looking back around the time they lost their holdings in France. The fiction of the state relies on many of these elements. Those are the markers for when a state becomes a nation as opposed to the mere domain of a prince.