"Natural" and "Supernatural"

I’d like a second third and/or fourth opinion on a semantic issue.

Science deals with things that are observable, tangible, measurable, demonstrable, etc, and thus natural. Whereas things like astrology, religion, and theology deal with things that cannot be observed, or that are on “higher planes” or are “beyond the physical universe” and other such phrases, and thus are supernatural. For the moment please just assume what i just said is an accurate categorization; we can argue the categories and things in the categories later. I just want to focus on the words “natural” and “supernatural.”

Flowers are observable. You can touch them, see them, smell them, etc. The occur naturally. They are in the “natural” category. Same goes for dogs, cars, planets, stars, galaxies, carbon nano tubes, tornadoes, and on and on.

“God(s)”, however you want to define the word, are typically described as being “above” us. The are in the “supernatural” category. Same goes for the forces/effects of star signs, crystal healing, magic spells, voodoo, and on and on.

It seems to me that if the things in the “supernatural” category were actually present and/or actually effective that the word “natural” would be better suited for describing them. If your zodiac really did have an effect on your life (or whatever the proper terminology is) that such an effect would be naturally occurring, and thus it would be natural. Or if a spell cast by a witch actually really worked and effects could be seen or observed in some way, that the spell would be a natural thing. Or if perhaps there really was a god of some sort, then wouldn’t that god be natural because it occurs naturally?

If something is by definition “beyond” the realm of the observable (observable by ANY means), in other words “supernatural”, then how can one with any degree of certainty claim knowledge of the existence of something that is exactly that? This question crumbles if there is indeed something there that can be observed; like a god, or spell. It then becomes paradoxical to still call that thing “super”-natural. If you can observe it, then it’s natural.
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[This sort of dilemma reminds me of the witch trials. People made claims that there were witches and that they cast spells and needed to be put to death. They were accused of doing the devil’s work, or of making people sick or ruining crops simply with spells and hexes and such. These sorts of claims have a few key implications: that the person has or can cast a spell, and that the spell the person cast can actually manifest itself into something that can be observed to happen (in other words, that the spell is actually real). For some reason people believed that the alleged spells were actually effective. Indeed if the spells were effective, the townspeople would have a stronger more rational argument for bestowing death to the caster. If they had simply not believed such things, or perhaps realized that even if a “spell had been cast” that nothing had actually happened after the spell, then there would have been no deaths. But i digress.][/size]

I can sum up my opinion about the issue with the difference between “natural” and “supernatural” in four statements:


I think it is critical to have an important concept at the forefront of your mind while thinking about this issue. Look at the difference between these two statements:

In the former statement Santa is an actual person who visits the homes of well behaved children. In the latter statement Santa is just a story. The man is supernatural, the idea of the man is natural. It’s like the placebo effect: the pill doesn’t actually do anything, its the thought of ingesting real medicine that does something.

By your definition, would you call the laws of nature natural, or supernatural?

Manifestations of the laws of nature are observable, but the laws themselves are not. The same goes for concepts like force and energy, we can observe how they manifest, but we cannot observe them directly. Does this mean that there is no reason to believe that they actually exist?

More precisely, what exactly does irrefutably demonstrable mean?

If God created this natural universe, then God is supernatural.

However, God, in order to preserve the rational (natural) nature of the universe, would not cause/allow supernatural effects within it. (This does not necissarily preclude passive supernatural observation.)

You wrote:

Within this natural, rational universe, yes. But, as is a 50-50 possibility, a supernatural God could have created the natural universe. This fits with our observation that nothing natural can be traced back past the Big Bang, nor do we have the first inkling of a theory as to how the Big Bang (or Creation by any means) could have occurred naturally. If there is evidence for the supernatural, it lies within the period between time zero, and time=10 to the -43 seconds, or the Planck Epoch. That is also the smallest (indivisible) segment of space/time there is. If God is watching us, it is through these gaps in the fabric of the Ether. (This shit’s amazing.)

BTW, it is theoretically possible for there to be, say, supernatural communication/interaction between God and us. He could, for instance, suspend a copy of the Wall Street Journal in the sky for a day a year hence, accurate in every minute detail. But doing so would undermine our rational universe, and thus the basis for a rational morality, and thus the ability to make rational choices–moral or otherwise. (Never mind the paradox of being able to act on prescient information, or its destruction of our free will.)

It is merely a statement that we have no knowledge either way.

Not necessarily so (see #1). We may be able at some point to demonstrate through statistics indicating intelligent design, that God exists–at least to within a few billion decimal points. Theoretically.

Mr. Rule 110,

Mr. / Ms. “A Student” has pointed out the drastic flaw in your attempts to class what is or is not “natural.”

The issue at base here, is one of you and Mr. Painefull’s bias towards a humanistic materialism. Thus, your distinctions between what is natural or supernatural are arbitrary.

To demonstrate this…(and to ultimately answer your question) consider the Christian conception.

We have a doctrine called the “Creator / Creature distinction.” Everything that exists is either God, or something God has created. Therefore, the only real distinction in reality is one between Creator and Created. In that case, angels and demons (if you grant the existence of such beings) would still be considered “natural” as would the laws of physics, the laws of logic, energy, and other things that cannot be directly verified via empirical means.

Mr. Painfull has brought this arbitrary naturalist bias to more consistent conclusions but will have similar problems. For a better understanding of the Christian position, I could suggest C.S. Lewis’ classic book “Miracles” which simultaneously answers Painfull’s critique about rationality in a universe ruled by a personal God.

I would call them natural. They occur naturally. They are demonstrable. They are observable. They are measurable.

I agree with you that the laws themselves are not observable. I agree with this because nature is not like a computer, which has code that governs its behavior that can be viewed to see exactly how things work. The “laws of nature” that we have are not coded onto any sort of celestial hard drive. The “laws” themselves are simply explanations (whether quantified or qualified) of what we see happening.

If there really was a “celestial hard drive” wouldn’t that hard drive be just as natural as the “celestial computer”?

Gravity is a force that cannot be “seen” but can be measured. The laws and equations that describe how gravity works only make sense if gravity is the way it is. It can be inferred that gravity is the way it is because the equations and laws work.

If X really does exist then there really is a way to observe/demonstrate/measure X, otherwise the claim that “X exists” could not have been made. Therefore X would be irrefutable demonstrable.


You’re making a boldfaced assertion and assumption about the nature of “god”

First of all, how is it not fair to say that if God exists he is just as natural as us. A supernatural thing creating natural things is a contradiction in terms. Natural things cannot be created. This would defy the definition of the word “natural”. Unless of course the matter which God created is actually “supernatural”. Also, if God always existed prior to creation, then on whatever plain of existence he is on, he exists there naturally.

This doesn’t make sense and I don’t agree with this, but it makes MORE sense to say that “a natural god intervened in the universe and created supernatural things that did not correspond with the natural order of things” than to say “supernatural god created natural things”.

If you’ve ever been to see a professional magician and were unaware that what he or she was simply performing an illusion or trick, you would think a supernatural occurrence had just taken place. If you brought your laptop computer back in to to lets say the 17th century you would be accused of sorcery or some such nonsense.

You have two unstated premises: 1) God exists, 2) rationality exists. You are asserting these things. Doing so is fallacious.

If there really was a god, and he is how people say he is, then he’s got some tricks up his sleeves. Seeing the god do his thing would not undermine anything anymore than a new scientific discovery undermines the previous scientific theory. If god has those abilities, wouldn’t it be fair to say that he “naturally” has them?

Before you use the “its theoretical possible for God to do X” argument, please do us a favor and talk about the existence of the god first. Cuz if there were a god, anything after that is pretty much “yeah… so what? he’s god he can do whatever he wants. big deal.”

If there really was a god, miracles wouldn’t so awesome. It always strikes me as odd when a believer flips out over an alleged “miracle of god”. If you believe in god, shouldn’t you expect such things?

Miracles are deviations from natural law. My contention is that there are no such things as miracles. There are only events that cannot be explained with current methods or laws. If you see a human being flying with no external aid, this just means the science we have to explain flight is incomplete, and the scientists would pounce all over it.

First of all, if the universe was designed it was done so intelligently. Second, observations of the universe and everything in it indicate that “(un)intelligent design” never actually occurred. Third, you can construct literally ANYTHING if you preface it with “it’s theoretically possible that X.” You only have a case when you can provide evidence for the truth of the claim X could be true. It’s theoretically possible that you are a murderer, or a prostitute, or a Nobelaureate, but i have no evidence for any of these things, and thus talking about them is a waste of time until said evidence is secured one way or another.


You are now redefining the word “natural”. You can’t do that.


To all,

It seems like there is a bias against saying all things are “natural”. I don’t understand this. It’s just a word. Saying “God is natural” says nothing about whether or not that god actually exists. I would think that a natural god would be more impressive than a supernatural one. You’d be more impressed by a natural diamond than an artificially grown one, or a natural pearl over a farmed one wouldn’t you?

How is it that “created/supernatural” laws of nature and such is so much more impressive than “natural” laws?

Shotgun, are you essentially saying that everything, including God, is natural? I mean, this would obviously clear up any confusion as to how miracles can occur, as you mentioned (I didn’t read C.S. Lewis’s book). Otherwise, there’d be the problem of how the supernatural can interact with the natural, and still be considered supernatural, which is what the OP is addressing.

Linguistic fallacy. There are certain distinctions that were established before we really knew what was what, and those entail several false distinctions. But we still hold them to this day. We can accept that, it isn’t bad . . . so long as we recognize it, of course.

Xunxian dispensed with this argument succinctly. If you can make the distinction between God and nature more aptly than natural/supernatural please do so. But such is the common traditional terminology used in these debates. I prefer the word supranatural. Supernatural implies you take what is natural and intensify it which is not what the term is supposed to mean at all. I prefer a word for the divine free from superstitious, occult and spooky horror movie connotations. Supranatural is beyond natural.

Why? I’ve always considered that God, natural or otherwise, could have come into existence simultaneously with the universe. But if He created it, He would have to have established and created what is natural. Could that be anything but supernatural since the natural didn’t exist before?

We have no idea whatever about what preceded the universe.

Now that’s an unfounded assumption

Neither a magician nor a laptop nor anything natural has the ability to be prescient about anything but what is determined natural law. The only way around that is to say there is no free will, in which case this is all a cosmic joke–us having the illusion of free will.

Morality has nothing to do with God, and natural is by definition rational. So if the universe is natural, rationality exists.

No. God being laissez faire is how very few people say He is.

?

I believe in a non-interfering God.

In this universe, I agree. But we don’t know anything about what came before.

Second, observations of the universe and everything in it indicate that “(un)intelligent design” never actually occurred.
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There is only slight evidence for ID. It’s 49.9999-50.00001.

Not if you stipulate a completely natural universe (based on all evidence and facts pointing to that).

I don’t understand you saying that, at least to non-revelationists. I’m only saying that no one knows or has any idea what caused/preceded the universe.

Indeed. That’s why I define God as Truth–and Truth as God.

Actually, the “artificial” ones are the flawless ones. I am impressed by and pursue/worship Truth.

"How is it that “created/supernatural” laws of nature and such is so much more impressive than “natural” laws?
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As someone that I can’t remember once said (roughly), “Sometimes I think there is a God, and other times I don’t. Either circumstance is wondrous.”

Why? I’ve always considered that God, natural or otherwise, could have come into existence simultaneously with the universe. But if He created it, He would have to have established and created what is natural. Could that be anything but supernatural since the natural didn’t exist before?

We have no idea whatever about what preceded the universe.

Now that’s an unfounded assumption

Neither a magician nor a laptop nor anything natural has the ability to be prescient about anything but what is determined natural law. The only way around that is to say there is no free will, in which case this is all a cosmic joke–us having the illusion of free will.

Morality has nothing to do with God, and natural is by definition rational. So if the universe is natural, rationality exists.

No. God being laissez faire is how very few people say He is.

?

I believe in a non-interfering God.

In this universe, I agree. But we don’t know anything about what came before.

There is only slight evidence for ID. It’s 49.9999-50.00001.

Not if you stipulate a completely natural universe (based on all evidence and facts pointing to that).

I don’t understand you saying that, at least to non-revelationists. I’m only saying that no one knows or has any idea what caused/preceded the universe.

Indeed. That’s why I define God as Truth–and Truth as God.

Actually, the “artificial” ones are the flawless ones. I am impressed by and pursue/worship Truth.

As someone that I can’t remember once said (roughly), “Sometimes I think there is a God, and other times I don’t. Either circumstance is incredible.”

Your idea of god makes things easy. God is an unconscious entity incapable of creative thought and thus incapable of creating. Your god is an idea and not something that can directly influence anything. Great. Moving on. Although i don’t know why you’d bother relabeling truth to “god”. Isn’t “truth” good enough?

From now on I’ll call it “God Or Dare”. And I’ll say things like “Do you promise to tell the God, the whole God and nothing but the God so help you truth?”

No it isn’t. Its a logically constructed if-then statement. Perhaps you’d like it another way: if God always existed then he exists in this universe naturally. But hey, if your god is just an idea (truth) and not something that can create things anyway then there’s no point in talking about it because there has always been a truth hasn’t there.

Morality has nothing to do with truth. I agree
And no. “Natural” has nothing to do with rationality. Show your work.

You must be one of those few then. Right?

Again… Show your work.

If both situations are incredible, then who cares about the incredibleness. Given a set of A and B, if A = X and B = X, then A = B, and thus X is a useless descriptor.

Why do you say that? The Truth could be that God is a super-intelligent/divine entity, or not. The thing is , we don’t know what the Truth is, what God/god is.

Since we don’t know whether there is a God or not, it helps us to keep in that in mind, and that from our vantage point, our only real option is the pursuit of Truth. It’s irrational to worship a God we don’t know exists.

But you’re using God as the ultimate Kahuna spirit in the sky, which again, we don’t know exists. IOW, I propose that we hold Truth to be the Divine God and/or our ultimate reality god until we know whether it is one or both. For now Truth is our God/god, and that God/god is our pursuit of the ultimate ideal, Truth. Since God/god is a bit clumsy, why not let’s just use “Truth”.

Morality is not given to us by divine revelation from a divine God. That is the Truth.

What, you want me to copy and past from the dictionary? You yourself said, “Miracles are deviations from natural law. My contention is that there are no such things as miracles. There are only events that cannot be explained with current methods or laws.”

IOW, nature is rational (since miracles are supernatural and irrational). Or are you saying that natural law is irrational?

Well…yeah.

I could dig up the stuff like Hoyle and carbon atoms, but it’s close enough that I’m happy to concede 50-50. You say something else and the burden of proof is on you.

Jeez, work with me here. All I’m saying is that with all the knowledge we do have, we are essentially no closer to knowing if there is a God or not, and to me, that has profound implications.

The hot blonde in one corner of the bar is incredible…but then again, the red head over on the dance floor is incredible as well…I suppose that means the blonde IS the red head?

Logical fallacies aside…

I’ve already demonstrated why this isn’t a problem for Christians.

If Mr. Rule 110 decides to discard the Christian position, then he’s going to remain stuck in the arbitrariness of his own position.

For example, he opens with this statement: Science deals with things that are observable, tangible, measurable, demonstrable, etc, and thus natural. Whereas things like astrology, religion, and theology deal with things that cannot be observed, or that are on “higher planes” or are "beyond the physical universe

But then, later on he admits that things like logic, physics, and (he would most likely include) energy are part of the natural realm as well, even though they cannot be direclty empirically verified. He doesn’t seem to understand that you cannot directly “measure” logic or other physical laws. All you are “measuring” is the motion of certain particular objects. This leads to the savage critique of empiricism by David Hume. If our sense impressions are all that inform us of the objective world then rationality is impossible.

Thus we have an arbitrary distinction here. Mr. Rule only wants to class “material” objects into the group of “natural” but he doesn’t want to do it consistently. In fact, given his materialistic bias, it will be impossible for him to do so.

To answer your question Mr. Dood…the term “nature” is…as Rushdoony says: “a bastard concept that must be dropped.” (Rushdoony has an essay on this very topic called: “The Myth of Nature” published as an appendix to his book “The Mythology of Science.”)

“Nature (to the Christian) is a collective name for an uncollectivized reality, and by uncollectivized it is meant that “nature” has no unity in and of itself that makes it a unified order. To assert that such a unity exists in and as “Nautre” is to assert a hierarchical principal concerning the universe and its spheres.”

Thus, Mr. Dood, we can see that Mr. Rule’s unwillingness to admit to the arbitrariness of his own set of distinctions is produced by his unwillingness to admit that “nature” itself is anything other than a unit in and of itself, governed by its own laws.

As for the supposed “problem” of how the supernatural (God) can interact with the “natural” Rushdoony says:

“To rule out the traditional concept of “Nature” means also to alter the traditional concept of the natural and the supernatural. In terms of the myth (or Mr. Real’s view), the natural represents the normal life of the self-contained world system, whereas the supernatural is the intrustion of God’s activity into that system. But if natural and supernatural events are both euqally the activity of the triune God, and both equally His direct activity, then the distinction must be made on other grounds.”

The “other grounds” is exactly the distinction I made in my previous post. The basic dichotomy is one of Creator and Created.

I hope that helped clarify my position for you.

One could revise this naturalist view and say this:

Natural objects are those which are physical; i.e., their character can be known through empirical test procedures.

Supernatural objects are those which are nonphysical, i.e., their character cannot be known through empirical test procedures.

So, we can separate the objects by their epistemological features, i.e., how they fit into our theory of knowledge.

But, on the other hand, numbers are not supernatural. They are just nonphysical. Usually when people say “supernatural” they mean nonphysical AND personal, e.g. God, an angel, etc. What’s the problem with this way of cutting the ontological cake?

The problem with this distinction is that things that were once not confirmed by science but were natural - Rogue waves, that elephants could communicate over long distances, as two examples - would have been supernatural phenomena, which they were not. You have to keep in mind that scientific verification is an ongoing process.

How about numbers, superposed particles, entanglement between separate but entangled particles, laws, categories, consciousness, other minds…? Can these things be sensed, are they tangible, what are they made of?

Certainly the monotheists say this. But not even all monotheists would say that God is supernatural. Some would say that God is natural. And then there are pagans and others with much more immanent gods.

I tend to agree here. I think the idea of believing in something that is not natural is rather strange.

This is the crux of my argument.

I’M saying this. If there really is a god, it naturally became manifest.

If something exists or if something happens, then there was a process that occurred that lead to that something either existing or happening. Whether or not we have accurate explanations for that something is where the difference between “natural” and “supernatural” comes in. I am of the opinion that “supernatural” is a word that is applied to anything that people either can’t or don’t know how to explain. It is a cop out, and a most unnecessary descriptor, and whenever it is used it is ALWAYS an inaccurate assessment. I say always because if something happens and we can’t explain it, then science just needs to be furthered.

Mr. AufBau87,

Thanks for the clarifying and insightful contribution.

I think you’ve correctly set the issue up to be answered.

If you arbitrarily decide to class the terms as suggested, then you will never be able to consistently identify anything as “natural” (since EVERYTHING would be natural.)

Let’s take numbers for instance.

These are abstract universal concepts utilized by man to aid in the reasoning process. No where in the “natural” (as defined by you) world are these things directly verified via empirical methods.

Ok, you’ve granted as much by declaring that these things should be called, “nonphysical.”

You would (I assume) aruge that “nonphysical” particulars are indirectly discerned via our observations of “physical” particulars.(1)

But then again…so are angels verified.(2)

In essence, your arbitrary attempt to divide between classes of “natural” and “supernatural” essentially moves the discussion to a defintion of the terms “physical” and “nonphysical.”

Just like numbers, we can study God’s revelation, and necessarily deduce the existence of such “non-physical” beings.

Therefore, given your criteria, angels and even God Himself are no longer “supernatural” but rather, “non-physical.”

And, if the ultimate distinction for you is going to be between physical / nonPhysical, then you’ve deifned yourself out of the present discussion by declaring (or presupposing) that the “natural” is all that exists.

Thus, you must either accept the necessity of “supernatural” (as defined / used in the posts prior to yours) or you must agree that there really is no need for such terms since no real distinction exists.

i: I would argue that it is impossible for you to do so…and allude to the arguments of David Hume.[/i]

b: Keep in mind, I’m not arguing for the existence of these beings, simply their proper classification.[/b]

I think some of you may be conflating “supernatural” with “conceptual”.

A number is simply a word or symbol we attribute to a set of a particular size or quantity. The numbers themselves do not violate any natural order of things. Mankind “coming up with” numbers does not violate any natural order of things either; they’re conceptual, and highly useful.

As for the “non-physical” stuff… How is this any better? Unless the use of this term would mean eliminating the use of “supernatural”, i don’t think it is better.

Lets go back to 1st grade english… Nouns… processes, places, things, ideas.

Think of something. Anything. Is it a process? place? thing? idea?

A number is an idea used to describe a set of other nouns, which could be cities, people, or apples.

People are just collections of atoms, which are things. Places are locations, as opposed to the collection of things that are at a location (ie, a city is a thing which is at a place). Ideas are comprised of many series of neural firings in the brain, which is made up of atoms located in your skull.

Now the fun part.

God.

Process, thing, place, or idea?

If god is a process, then you really need to be specific.

If god is a material thing, as it is VERY OFTEN depicted, then… you’ve got some work to show.

If god is a place, like say for instance, “god is the universe”, i live in the universe, it is a place, i have no reason to think the universe does not exist, i believe in the universe therefore i believe in god. If of course “god” is simply a place.

My all time (least) favorite is when someone says “god is love”. #@%&$%$#@^!@$#& This says absolutely nothing. Ideas are not conscious.

This is true in the abstract. But your ideas are never reducible to neural firings in your brain. You never experience your ideas that way. Mind and brain may be two aspects of the same thing. But you never experience them as one. Mind and brain can be viewed as a hierarchy not a unity. The brain is a substrate which supplies the “fuel” or “calories” that make signal processing possible. The mind relates to functions which originate in the brain encompassing changes in encoded patterns whose relationship forms a non-material structure based on but not equated with the brain.

No, I wouldn’t argue such a thing. Since numbers aren’t verifiable given observed data to exist,they are not natural. But I also added the amendment that supernatural things are sentient. Thus, numbers are just in a general sense nonphysical or abstract. There is no way to scientifically confirm their existence. We might also argue, however, that scientific talk is committed to the existence of numbers.

Here, I’d object and say that though both objects are nonphysical, one is indispensable in science and the other is not; moreover, one involves sentience (possibly a category mistake), whilst the other doesn’t. So I don’t both being verified the same way, even though both are nonphysical. Supernatual things are defined as sentient beings whose existence cannot be scientifically verified.