Nietzsche and Nazism

I am sure that the subject has been given consideration before, but in light of some of my recent treads, it becomes interesting to me as now.
I asked the question previously of “Hail Hitler???” as a question to those who still follow Hitler in light of his confirmed attrocities. Simply put, to me, you cannot dissasociate Hitler with the death of five million human beings in concentration camps. "Hail Hitler would be the same as a “Hail Aushwitz”.
Sauwelios took the challenge and placed Nietzsche in the middle. I was told in full cynicism, that there was nothing wrong with genocide, and that even the great Nietzsche would have approved:
"The weak and the failures shall perish: first principle of our love of man. And they shall even be given every possible assistance."
[Nietzsche, The Antichristian, section 2.]
The great majority of men have no right to existence, but are a misfortune to higher men. I do not yet grant the failures the right. There are also peoples that are failures.”
[The Will to Power, section 872.]
– though of course, I was also told that:
"One might say Nazism is to Nietzsche as Christianity is to Plato: Nazism is Nietzscheanism for “the people”.

So, on one hand, we find that as Sauwelios believes, that Mein Kampf sets out a Nietzschean program. Could that be indeed true? Could it be that instead of Rosenberg, the philosopher who should had been tried at Nuremberg was Nietzsche?
Sauwelios has told me that Nietzsche would have approved of a program of mass murder of jews. In his own signature it now quotes WP:
"To gain that tremendous energy of greatness in order to shape the man of the future through breeding and, on the other hand, the annihilation of millions of failures, and not to perish of the suffering one creates, though nothing like it has ever existed!"
[Nietzsche, WP 964.]

Initially, perhaps, Nietzsche might have advocated for a man just as Hitler, willing to kill vast numbers of men women and children without being destroyed by the deed. Perhaps this was preferred by Nietzsche than to keep alieve a de-natured beast- a lion de-fanged. Perhaps Nietzsche would have preferred a Hitler a thousand times over a Martin Luther King Jr or a Ghandi.
This impression, which Sauwelios has taken as authoritative, is most clearly drawn from Will to Power. Other books are more bening and cautious, if still caustic. WTP is the preferred source for the belief that Nietzsche and Hitler had a lot in common. Could it had been all due to his sister’s efforts?
In his Ecce Homo we have Nietzsche reflecting on the dangers he knew his legacy would face, as even then his sister was getting married to the doctrine of anti-semitism literally. Why would a man who would be later linked with the ultimate anti-semite, Hitler, object to his sister getting married to one and lamented his name being tarnished by association to them? Would Nietzsche have also tried to dissasociate himself from Aushwitz? He calls for annihilation from his creators, but of values:
“and whoever wants to be [in the original text of TSZ: “must be”] a creator in good and evil [in the original text of TSZ: evil is followed by “verily”] , must first be an annihilator and break values.”
His Overman would be called a devil, and terrible in his goodness, but he is refering to the honesty of the overman, as opposed to the contradictions and lies found in the common christian priest, the average St Paul, who enslaves man’s instincts. The Overman let’s loose from these artificial fetters. Art is merely another shackle as well. But the troubling implication would be that man, freed from the shackles imposed on him by christianity is a mass murderer. I don’t believe that Nietzsche takes this angle. he gives many instances of men that most closely resemble his ideal, but you do not find anything like Hitler, though many men and states before Hitler did prosecute jews and conducted pogroms. Would that had been his ideal, he would have had to invocke the very anti-semites he objected to.
A better figure of influence on Hitler, then, might be Richard Wagner, but Nietzsche broke off with the composser, though retaining some admiration. But even Wagner might not be compleatly pleased that his name was so tied to Aushwitz. Nietzsche’s solution was apparently, some might disagree, to one’s overcoming, through self-mastery, the impositions of a slave morality. It does not seem to me that extermination of the slave was the answer. The Overman might have had great designs for Europe, but they would have sonner included intermixing with the jewish blood than the annihilation of the jewish blood altogether. When he attacks the weak peoples, he never forgets of his own people, the germans. He praises the values of judaism as much as he despises them, for the results are, from a perspective, the achievement of power.
Antisemitism is the expression of a lack of power. The antisemite is the vulgar man- the lowest man- and if you look at Hitler’s cabinet, you can’t but agree with this. The failure of men leads to frustration and to a revolt against the master. In germany’s case, the master race was not the teutonic race but the jewish race and then as before, a repetition occured, though ironically, the Pharaoh was now a jew.
In the end Nietzsche would have failed at being a good nationalist, anti-semitist, and prophet for Nazism. Nazism might have been simply the danger to his legacy which made Nietzsche weary in the end.

Omar, just one small correction, really picking a nit.

The death toll from the Holocaust was approximately 11 million, not 5 million.

Otherwise, carry on. I haven’t read enough Nietzsche to participate in this discussion, so I’ll leave it to others.

I have read from 5.5 million to six million and now, as you inform me, 11 million. I’ll stick with five as a conservative number so as to make sure no one accuses my investigation with sensationalism. But as Goering himself would have said, even five percent of that would have been enough…

Here it is in a nutshell so write this down or tatoo it to your forehead.

All you little fucks who wanna become Nietzscheans and Nazis are wasted on a pipe-dream that’ll never happen. There will be no great dragon descending from the skies, there will be no super-race, there will be no overman, and there will be no super-group composed of Rammstein, Marylin Manson, and Nine Inch Nails. And Jesus was not Ceasar.

Please, if you wanna go kill somebody or break the law or something, fine…but really, you are not excused because Nietzsche or the Nazi say its the right thing to do.

Everybody wants to be a part of a movement. The Nietzschean/Nazism movement is the one that all the angry outcasts adopt.

I’m sayin you don’t need all that stupid shit to do whatcha wanna do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust

The 6 million figure commonly cited refers to Jews murdered; total Holocaust victims were more.

This really has nothing to do with the thread topic, though.

I could not agree more.
The developed self, the defined ego, the true individual, does not have to be caressed by ideologies that comfort him and what he does. He that does pick on such devices is simply trying to escape responsibility. If all goes well, his self is praised as the ideology or group is praised as cause of the desired result. If it fails then the guilt for the failure is spread over the ideology not on the self-- at least that is what the frustrated would like.

One’s own actions can be of questionable quality, but being part of a programe, of an ideology, then one’s actions are moral, sanctioned by a group. Taking part of the movement one is lifted from the relativism of one’s position and given a final vision into all, past and future, here and everywhere. The attach themselves to Hitlers and Nietzsche’s because in them they believe that their ambitions are reached. They take on a second soul because they despise the incapacity of their own. They follow what they read because it reads as something they would have written but could not write.

But that was not the point of this whole thing.
Since Nietzsche is dead, I ask, in your humble opinion, was Nietzsche the Prophet of the Reich? The Philosopher of Nazism? The grandfather of the “Final Solution”?

Since all these are dead or dying, I ask, who cares?

Sauwelios and Neo-Nazis might object to that categorization. But in any case, if you don’t care, then forget I asked.

I am yet to read much nietzsche, and after the quotes you have listed, I don’t think I would be interested.
What a sick character.

Ciao Niccolo!
Te diro che e impossibili andare molto lontano in la filosofia senza correre prima o dopo in Nietzsche.

That is, Nietzsche is a giant, and one runs sooner or later into him, if one reads philosophy long enough.

Nietzsche’s conception of power is quantitative, and political power or “barbarism” is on the lower end of the scale. Hitler, the pinnacle of everything Nietzsche hated…Yes, they definately have alot in common.

Please don’t be turned off by the garbage spewed in this thread, they are wildly out of context.

Here here I think all the tools for a relentless attack on Fascism are well contained in Nietzsche’s writing.
Nietzsche was no lefty by any manner of means but you can still make a very strong case for Nazism being the ultimate systematic triumph of Christian resentment.

I also like Zizek’s characteristaion of Hitler.

He turns Wilhelm Reich on his head - ie the view that the Nazi’s were a triumph for authoritarian/patriachal values with Hitler as a strong father figure.
The Zizek line is that Hitler was a pathetic screechy failed painter, failed soldier, failed human. The psychological identicfication is that of every little stunted petit bourgeoise shopkeeper - who might see him ranting and go - “hey look thats me up there that is!” They feel for him and want him to win out… Its the little man and his resentment writ large!

So its Nietzsche’s herd of “belivers” that best characterises the Nazis - though maybe constituted in a slightly different way then some psychological characterisations of fascism.
Hitler is in every way opposite to overman.

Here’s a nice quote for Human all to Human which I think would have summed Nietzsche’s view on a fascist society

Leave to speak. All political parties today have in common a demagogic character and the intention of influencing the masses; because of this intention, all of them are obliged to transform their principles into great frescos of stupidity, and paint them that way on the wall.

Human. All Too Human
SECTION EIGHT
A Look At The State

That was the funniest thing I’ve read in a while. I thank you, détrop.

Regards,

It would include a “Hail Auschwitz” - it would not be “the same”.

I was not aware of being cynical. In any case, I was not being ironic: there is nothing inherently wrong with genocide. This is a nihilistic judgment: there is no such thing as “evil”, i.e., no such thing as “wrong”, as “morally reprehensible”. Would Nietzsche then, if not on ethical grounds, condemn the holocaust on aesthetic grounds?

“One may be quite justified in continuing to fear the blond beast at the core of all noble races and in being on one’s guard against it: but who would not a hundred times sooner fear where one can also admire than not fear but be permanently condemned to the repellent sight of the ill-constituted, dwarfed, atrophied, and poisoned?”
[The Genealogy of Morals, first treatise, section 11.]

I will now quote to you what Walter Kaufmann, himself a Jew, wrote in his edition of The Will to Power:

“The question still remains to be answered: what is the nature of this strange work? The answer is plain: it offers a selection from Nietzsche’s notebooks of the years 1883 through 1888. […]”
[Editor’s Introduction, section 2.]

Elisabeth Förster-Nietzsche (the philosopher’s sister) may have suppressed certain notes, or even entire notebooks, but most of the material in this edition (including the lines quoted above) is in Nietzsche’s handwriting; those which are not are often “evidently dictated” (according to Kaufmann), usually to his best friend, Heinrich Köselitz (Peter Gast), to whom he also dictated the whole of Human, All Too Human (as he says in Ecce Homo, HATH section 5).

So Nietzsche is the author of all material of The Will to Power; nor is it possible that the material has been copied and pasted (consisting of written notes).

So all the material in The Will to Power is entirely authentic - though one must remember that it consists of notes and drafts - some highly polished, some very rough, many in between.

Some also call the Genealogy an “obscure” book. Perhaps we should just disqualify everything he wrote after Beyond Good and Evil? Or after The Gay Science? - Hell, let’s just disqualify all of it!

What do you think of this, then:

Do you think he only meant his brothers should break them psychologically?

Source?

How about Cesare Borgia? How about Napoleon?

It depends on whether you are insightful or not. Have you looked at esoteric Nazism? Have you looked at the SS (the ones responsible for the Final Solution)?

Havent read Nietsche yet … but I believe in the nullification of the incompetent

Would that not be suicidal for ya?

I answer the one I dare not name for closing was his last wish from me.

— there is nothing inherently wrong with genocide. This is a nihilistic judgment: there is no such thing as “evil”, i.e., no such thing as “wrong”, as “morally reprehensible”. Would Nietzsche then, if not on ethical grounds, condemn the holocaust on aesthetic grounds?
O- What is “inherently beautiful” or “Inherently” ugly? Morality departs from the same grounds as aesthetics so whatever method makes your judgment possibly for Aushwitz makes possible a judgment on Monet. Whomever is moral, as a consequence, is also an aesthete.

— So all the material in The Will to Power is entirely authentic - though one must remember that it consists of notes and drafts - some highly polished, some very rough, many in between.

Some also call the Genealogy an “obscure” book. Perhaps we should just disqualify everything he wrote after Beyond Good and Evil? Or after The Gay Science? - Hell, let’s just disqualify all of it!
O- Hell, let’s canonize WTP, just as the Apocalypse.
Notes may be maintained but that does not clarify the light in which the author of the notes held them. For example, writers like Freud wrote in “opponents” and presented a case against himself. We find this in Nietzsche also. Montinari argues that WTP is a revision of his work. Kaufmann argues that Elizabeth manipulated the manuscrips to suit a Nazi agenda. Elizabeths pride was in her ability to reconcille opposites, which ironically may have been what she did in the end and the one attribute Nietzsche faulted her for. No other character made one a better christian and one of the “good, just”. What remains ambiguous is if Nietzsche did not publish finished works or if he suppressed expressions with which he no longer could agree, or had overcome.
Only finished manuscrips, perhaps at an end with Anti-Christ, can be held as his intended legacy. From a psychological perspective, I admit, one can make a case that intended or not, perhaps the notes, brash and unrefined, uncensored, carry a clearer view into the soul of Nietzsche that edited versions he gave of himself.

— What do you think of this, then:

Quote:
O my brethren, have ye also understood this word? And what I once said of the “last man”?—

With whom lieth the greatest danger to the whole human future? Is it not with the good and just?

Break up, break up, I pray you, the good and just! [Zerbrecht, zerbrecht mir die Guten und Gerechten!]—O my brethren, have ye understood also this word?

[Thus Spake Zarathustra, Of Old and New Tables, section 27, entire.]

Do you think he only meant his brothers should break them psychologically?
O- Read on:
“Ye flee from me? Ye are frightened? Ye tremble at this word?
O my brethren, when I enjoined you to break up the good, and the
tables of the good, then only did I embark man on his high seas.
And now only cometh unto him the great terror, the great outlook,
the great sickness, the great nausea, the great seasickness.”

O- That is section 28, as you know. Breaking does not mean to murder, or kill. Again his choice of words is intended to be incendiary, yes, but it is not to be taken as an invitation to the mass murder of the “good,just” and their “tables of the good”. Their hold is psychological. No one is compelled, at least not in Nietzsche’s time to attend a service at church by the forces of the vatican police or the Keiser. Germany was certainly not Spain. Even when compelled, the mind remains one’s very own. Every theologian would tell you of the danger of the “gnostics”, those who profess outward compliance with the dictates of the Papacy while secretly, to themselves, practicing or believing as they please. Pascal’s Wager is not effective, but has been and will mostly be what does take place.
Breaking them up is not about killing them. Napoleon could be said to have broken the jews-- not because he exterminated them, but because he tried to assimilate them into his kingdom. But his assimilation also meant the breaking of their tablets as special people. The greatest evil, some may think, done to the jews was to take them out of the ghetto. See Erich Hoffer on that.
Man is controlled mentally by what is given to him as a role model and a code of morality-- what he ought to do. He hears his name called and he turns towards it, tough he could as well have walked and ignored the voice that called. Why does the message carries such force? How can the priest move the individual from the pew towards the altar and have him ingest guilt, believe in his own sin etc, etc, etc? Well, because of the alternative left to man, and which Nietzsche thus described: “O my brethren, when I enjoined you to break up the good, and the
tables of the good, then only did I embark man on his high seas.
And now only cometh unto him the great terror, the great outlook,
the great sickness, the great nausea, the great seasickness.”
O- My emphasis of course.
therefore, do not take Nietzsche as an instigator of mass murder, but as a man who wants to free your mind. And a last thought-- When you kill the good and the just and smash the tables of the good, what great danger you promote, because the mind remains the same and simply adopts a new foundation for itself. It is still slavish, does not write out it’s own tablets of what is good but just as before accepts someone else’s take on what is good. This is why Nietzsche ponders just by what will God be replaced with. A germany weaned from the Church only flew towards the new religion of Hitlerism, and conducted an inquisition of the new heretics, which ironically were the same old heretics, even if it was proposed, unconsciously, as a “new” religion.

— Source?
O- Am I to mimic what I myself have condemned in you? Speak that thou shall be heard!

— How about Cesare Borgia? How about Napoleon?
O- A model for Machiavelli. The latter a model of grand politics. However Napoleon did not persecute the jews as Hitler did. He granted them rights to property, for example, while Hitler took jewsih property…and their lives.

— It depends on whether you are insightful or not. Have you looked at esoteric Nazism? Have you looked at the SS (the ones responsible for the Final Solution)?
O- Perhaps such explanation might have served Rosenberg well during his trial. But note that he too evaded admission of Aushwitz. Why? If indeed he should have instead described to the world the justifications, not excuses, for his actions or the actions of those he inspired? Yet, his line of defense was that everybody had done it, that such things were not new, that the Americans did it to the indians, that the Russians did it to the jews…good uncle Joe. The true religion involved was Hitlerism and it’s creed was Fuhrerprizip.

I not sure about Nietzsche, but I’m fairly certain that Zarathustra would not be saying Hail Hitler.