timesonline.co.uk/article/0, … 44,00.html
I happened upon this story, and of course it spoke to me. What do you think?
I’d like to know more about the study. Simply comparing a few statistics between two countries (which appears to be happening here) and saying that Country A has a higher crime rate and a higher religious population does not mean that Country A has a higher crime rate BECAUSE of a higher religious population.
The final conclusion, that societies that have a godless citizenry don’t experience societal disaster, is reasonable, but any deduction that religion contributes to societies ills, from this study alone, seems to be unjustified.
Yes, I’m not one to wildly support studies of human behavior, but I think that the story presents a variety of interesting ideas.
I’m an atheist, but even I find the story plainly laughable. Correlation is not causation.
As a lapsed Jew I found the story utterly hilarious. Basically it’s an excuse to make out that in ‘secular’ Britain (where 75% of schools have a connection to organised religion of some sort and where schools can refuse entry to a child on religious grounds but not on academic grounds) we’re so much better than the US…
The Times is a shamelessly middle class, nationalistic paper. Of course in the pre-Murdoch days it was a high quality bit of print but nowadays it’s just tripe.
Take this passage:
What nonsense - the US are evangelical Christians and that’s why they don’t believe in the theory of evolution which is of course accepted as valid by the worldwide scientific community which includes the US…?
What?
It’s like the ID being taught in schools argument - I’m often accused of being a Christian because I think evolution is a crock of shit theory with little or no evidence and I think that ID should be taught as an alternative theory. Apparently this makes me closed minded and the ones who want to teach kids one theory and one theory alone (that has never been verified or falsified) are apparently the open-minded liberals who’ll save us from those nasty religious types who want to indoctrinate us.
Now it doesn’t surprise or disgust me when the US media reports in this sort of way because they’ve never had anything other than private, corporate press. As such all media in the US is inherently in competition (at war) with all other media in the US. The same is not true in Europe, particularly the UK where we have the BBC, but sometimes we get the same gutter press crap…
Basically this ‘report’ is trying to reinforce popular European prejudices (such as ‘the US are all a bunch of God-toting idiots who can’t be trusted and we have to take the moral high ground’) under the guise of science. I see it all the time - it’s clear that the only reason such research is granted funding is because they’ve made some deal with the awarding body regarding the conclusion…
A pathetic indictment of media and academia.
In defense of the general concept, I believe that religions that prohibit certain behaviors actually promote those behaviors. That’s even a classic marketing trick. New Rock Star has an explicit act then the conservatives get crazy about his behavior. Then, he sells millions of records as a result.
I believe that at least in part western religion created porn, as it turned sex into a “dirty” activity rather than the ultra-mundane one that it really is.
In prison many of the guys were raised in a religious environment and felt damned for their past behavior and reported that they might as well just continue. They also had a general negative attitude toward women and would tell many “Eve-like” stories about how women ruined them. They might have even been true if the women were following that rule, which was mentally imposed on them.
I believe that there’s a lot to think about in regard to how people are going to act when they are forbidden to do certain things, and when good and evil are so clearly defined.
Hello F(r)iends,
That short article left a lot to be desired…
How does one go about qualifying devout religious worship?
Simply, if you accept evolution you are not devout?
And if you deny it, then you are a fundamentalist zealot?
With only conjecture about the USA being “more” religious, it is very easy to make the statement below:
What’s more, I’d wager a lot of dough that most English citizens belive in something of a creator. People often accept evolution as fact but still believe a creator was involved in the process or simply choose to accept that god is mysterious and that’s it…
â€The widely held fear that a Godless citizenry must experience societal disaster is therefore refuted.â€
Refuted? What a joke.
-Thirst
Yeah, but I don’t think that a creator is the driving force. I think that it has to do with the concept of sin.
I have no facts on this, but I seriously doubt it.
After all, Darwin was one of us 
Hello F(r)iends,
Without facts, we are only left with guessing… which is why the article was crap.
By the way, many of the founding fathers of this country were also one of you… 
-Thirst
Ok, let’s not avoid my statement about sin. Isn’t the compulsion to taste forbidden fruit installed into the minds of the Judeo/Christo/Muslo?
Give it up one time people!
2001 Census statistics on religion
Aren’t I a useful person…
Ok, that was not giving it up one time.
Hello F(r)iends,
There are important differences in the makeup of most of the advanced “secular” democracies and that of the United States.
For starters, how about that England is nearly 85% native, white folk and the United States has many more ethnicities (its a melting pot). Couldn’t this easily be a reason that “more” conflict exists?
Culture clash, language barriers I am sure add to the mix and there are certainly a bigger clash of various religions here too which creates more conflict and confusion…
This article is refuted. 
-Thirst
P.S. Thanks for the info SIATD.
Also the US has a larger population (more potential for conflict) and is spread over a wider geographical area (more potential for regional identity and therefore conflict) and the cultures there have come together over a much shorter period…
What would be more accurate is to compare the US to the whole of Europe…
…filled with people that will kill you.
Hello F(r)iends,
Do you imagine Europe is that much less dangerous?
-Thirst
Yes, check my Get Out Now thread. We live in a hellhole.
Hello F(r)iends,
You would be better off in Europe… I’m thinking of the slavic regions. Those places are like paradise.
-Thirst
Sounds like a plan! I may work for the airforce.