Nothing is free, everything else has a cost.

For so long, like many others, I was debating the philosophy of freedom - but only in terms of freedom to choose, or freedom to achieve. Sartre showed how freedom of choice can be seen as absolute from a very specific perspective.

But, to just focus on the word ‘free’, not ‘freedom’, the issue can be made very clear; something is either free or it has a cost. With that said nothing is free. Even our very being had a cost, it was paid for by our ancestors - our parents all the way down the tree of life.

Our ancestors can’t demand repayment, but what they would want is only for us to help pay the costs for future descendants, as they did for us. We can ignore them, but then we would have nothing but our being, which taken as an unreciprocated gift, can hardly be said to be anything.

So let’s discuss how to avoid writing a bad check with our life, and even criteria for deciding which of us may, in fact, be the product of bounced checks, ourselves.

Well, Better education is a start. Educate the young and not just teach answers.
Also put aside petty animosities and truly work together. This is especially true for public leaders.

At the very least, things cost time. And we all run out of it eventually.

The sun is free, as is the air. Enjoy it whilst you can.

You are free to destroy your life. And the lives of others.

In context, I agreed until the last part. Why should public leaders help us continue what our ancestors started, they might have nothing in common with us?

So for those who do the former, their ancestors must have kept a bad ledger, and assuming those others in the latter have something in common with us, then we’d have to be metaphorically dyslexic to do so?

Each of us individually.

I know, that’s why I get so mad at my neighbors when they complained that I cut down all the trees bordering our lots, and that I’m always burning my lawn waste… when I feel the wind is just right!!

Well public leaders are in a position to make changes. Old is replaced by new and better educated new should be better… hopefully.

A kind of secular original sin, this seems. At least it could be taken this way.

Does lava have a debt to the volcano?

This really does sound like a kind of original sin, an original debt perhaps, to fit better with the cost/free metaphor.

I don’t Think I Owe my ancestors anything. But maybe I am missing something.

but sometimes they owe you, if they were around, that is.

Lev Muishkin,

They too may appear to be free but if enjoyed too much, they may be costly. Too much sun leads to cancer and too much air (cough cough) may lead to emphezema, allergies etc. Of course, on the other side of that coin, there ARE benefits.
It all comes down to balance.

Stuart if you were burning waste or leaves in your yard and you lived next to me I’d complain.

Well you sure don’t live in Mississippi, we have pyros all over the place and idiot ones are just all the norm… :slight_smile:
Its a windy dry day??? OH goody lets burn!!! Whats a burn ban???

Yippee

I’m glad you brought up the Christian idea of original sin. Born sinful, Christians believe we must accept Jesus in order to live forever. There’s some ambiguity there, because supposedly Hell would also be forever. But, to just focus on the common phrases used by them, such as, ‘ever lasting life’ being the consequences of accepting Jesus, and ‘eternal death’ being the consequence of not, we can perhaps see that the origins of the concept of original sin and Christian salvation didn’t revolve around the idea of eternal Hell contrasting with eternal Heaven.

So the idea is this, though I admit I’m new to it myself: To live among ones ancestors, in the culture they’ve lived in so long that the myths they tell have no known origins in contemporary forms of chronology, and to be accepted by them, in other words to be in line with them, is to take part in the continuation of this old culture - to one day become one of the many nameless ancestors that could be said to even be worshipped, to ‘live forever’, using Christian terminology.

To be outcast by them is to lose your rights to that place. Even if we discount what ‘taking part in it’s continuation’ would mean on most levels, it certainly would preclude any direct genetic part.

To owe a debt to the Judeo-Christian God, is to owe a debt to one who has no actual relation to yourself. It’s hardly less than the same thing as being outcast.

So when you notice that what I’m saying seems like a secular version of original sin, that doesn’t mean that that it came as a consequence of Christianity; as some form of distortion of it. Christianity and Judaism were distortions of paganism, which came first after all.

I understand what you mean by that question, and its tempting to just say that the cause and effects involved with humans is much more complicated, but really your metaphor can work well to illustrate what I’m saying. Taken outside of the context of being in immediate danger, a volcanic eruption is very beautiful, in fact the entire concept is. Lave heated in the unseen depths of the Earth arise on very rare occasions to from new islands or expand on established land. For the lava to do otherwise would lack beauty. There’s really no example for how that could be done, but to turn to a similar analogy, that of water flowing to the sea. If a river were to be dammed into a lake which is emptied for use before it ever has a chance to ever come to much size, is to destroy the beauty of that river.

There’s no need to resolve the natural/unnatural dichotomy here. That such a dam would situation would destroy the river’s beauty and fail to come close to replacing it with the man-made beauty of the dam structure seems clear. So without a connection to our ancestors, even the recognition of a debt, then all that we are and do is just a poor replacement.

How so?

If humanity had advanced free energy technologies, and actually had them used on a large scale, they could make megalythic space crafts, but they could also make bigger weapons, and they would. The more power people get, the more risk of even worse wars, or abuse or some endless list of malevolent application.

You forget about education

The paradigm of life has to do with replication.
If you want to make a difference in the world, you can mostly only do that on a genetic level by having a lot of kids.
The ego does not exist in lower animals. They have a being, and want to survive, but they don’t have the kind of self identification that we have.
They don’t want to die, but they don’t dread death either. They don’t think about loosing it all. They don’t have as much to loose, mentally.
Less knowledge. Less memories. Less plans and hopes and dreams. So if we came from that kind of paradigm, in a world which has less worries,
we may be able to understand our life a bit better.

In a way I have a debt to the earth, too. All kinds of complex but temporary emotions arise about life and self, what should be, what is, etc.
Maybe that is part of why humans live longer than cats and dogs. They seem to want to live and plan ahead more.