Ah yes, and since their nuclear physicists were retarded people instead of NUCLEAR PHYSICISTS they would have just taken our word for it. Yeah dude! You are missing the reality here; when we bombed Hiroshima, they knew we only had one or two bombs left. That’s how tight the science was. If we would have dropped 2 in the sea, they would have known we were out of nukes for a month at least.
You can’t substitute your imagination and game theory for the facts on the ground. We could not have convinced them we had more nukes than we did. They did not surrender when we dropped a nuke on their heads, ergo they were sure as shit not going to surrender if we dropped one in the sea. What you are saying makes no sense.
The point is… we could have stopped the cold war, that’s even happening today if they had used good game theory… fuck… they used to make tanks out of plastic in WWII just to make the Nazi’s think we were encamped there. Truman Fucked up, his advisors fucked up.
That could only be true if there were leaks… but not even those leaks could be trusted against a rational bluff. You’re wrong Ucci.
And besides… if that were true, then why did they surrender after 2 nukes… they could have invaded our country knowing we had no more nukes for months and taken over our nuclear program. They could have won the war. if Hitler hadn’t been so arrogant and refused to listen to his generals they WOULD have won the war. The a Japanese could have won that war with their suicidal bombers… because that’s the best war strategy on earth. They could have easily taken america.
You're talking shit about things you know nothing about. The idea that mass produced nuclear weapons in the 1940's is fucking preposterous and people living at the time knew it. You may as well tell them to surrender because we had shrink ray or a time machine. People in the 1940's knew what a bluff was. Claiming without evidence that we could mass produce nukes would have been seen as the obvlious bullshit that it was, because [i]Japan was trying to make nukes as well and understood the tech behind them.[/i]
The fact that nukes were very hard to make, that we could only manage one or two a month if that, and that Japan was well aware of this is all a matter of public record. Look anywhere, I'm sure wikipedia even talks about it. Japan didn't surrender because everybody knew the kind of effort behind a nuclear bomb and that we didn't have more than a few.
Because the USSR declared war on them after the second bomb.
Do you understand that this is reality and not a fantasy where you get to make things up? The couldn’t have invaded our country because we controlled the Pacific, and the second bomb destroyed their major torpedo factory that made the Pearl Harbor attack super effective.
Japan could have won the war if they wanted to… suicide bombing is the best war technique on earth, they could have taken over our nuclear program easily. The only reason the germans lost the war is because Hitler was a paranoid narcissist who wouldn’t listen to his own generals.
That’s nice. Now answer the points I made; a bluff wouldn’t have worked because they knew how many bombs we had. Dropping a bomb wouldn’t have shaken their resolve more than dropping it on Hiroshima did. You’re talking nonsense, and I’m not moving on to discuss your new nonsense until we’ve dispensed with the old.
Russia declared war on them after the second bomb drop, they didn’t control any seaports in range of the U.S. mainland, and their navy had been devestated in Midway and other battles.
Why are you talking so confidently when I have to explain the basics to you? Are you even aware that you could not fly a bomber or a kamikaze from Japan to the United States in 1945? They were so desperate for an offensive option by the end that they were trying to float explosives across the Pacific in balloons for fuck’s sake.
cough Pearl Harbor — the japanese weren’t aware that they could win the war, neither were the germans… the whole world lucked out, because it was REALLY FUCKING CLOSE. If Hitler hadn’t been such a paranoid narcissist, the germans would have won… if the Japanese really believed we only had two nukes, they would have won.
That’s nice. None of that has aything to do with the points I’m making. They attacked Pearl Harbor from carrier battlegroups, they didn’t fly planes all the way from Japan. Those carrier battlegroups were mostly destroyed, and we had control over the Pacific. They couldn’t do that again after we took the Islands. Japan believed we only had a couple nukes and they were right. They surrendered because we used those nukes on strategic targets instead of wasting them in the ocean, and because Russia declared war on them after the second bomb. That’s it. You apparently don’t know the history involved here, if you need me to teach it to you fine, but why argue with me while I do it?
Main point: Wasting our nuclear arsenal in the sea to chest thump would have prolonged the war because they knew we had a very limited supply of them. That was your point I’m responding to, and my response is correct. I’m not going to go on to teach you about the WWII Pacific Theater just so you can try to salvage some way to feel right.
Well… if russia declared war, that’s a game ender, but that would have been a game ender without the nukes… not even Kamikazis could have taken the US and Russia. I think the point of this thread is whether the nukes actually solved anything, or they were just wonton killing of people for no reason. Japan clearly would have surrendered if the russians got involved too.
Russia declared war because our nukes obliterated their defensive command and control and a major seaport, and they believed that the declaration of war combined with the bombs would be enough to force a surrender.
Anyway, you just got done telling me with confidence about how Japan would have handed us our asses, and you didn't even know Russia was a threat? Can we agree now that you're making decrees about WWII without knowing anything about it, and stop this silliness?
Things you didn’t know:
We only had a couple nukes, and Japan was aware of this.
We nuked military targets of great significance, not purely civilian.
Russia declared war on Japan, which ended the war.
Japan had no ability to attack the US mainland by that point in the war.
I’m not listening to somebody billigerantly insist about what was necessary and what was not in WWII when they don’t know the basics.
So are you saying that the russians who knew we only had two nukes… decided to declare war ONLY after we detonated them on Japan. Ucci… you’re not making sense here. Why not before? What a quote nightmare… I’ll see if I can make this look reasonable with the 3 quote limit.
It doesn't seem like I'm making sense because I'm having to explain the basics of WWII's Pacific Theater to you in the midst of you trying to have an argument with me about it and second guessing all the basic facts I'm relaying to you. You're just going to keep on going "Why not this? Why not that? Why not this? Why not that?" until eventually we get to something I don't know, because I'm not an expert, and you'll declare victory.
You thought Japan was able to attack the U.S. mainland, you didn’t know Russia was a factor, and you thought we could bluff about how many nukes we had. Your views on what were necessary are thus irrelevant, so leave me be.
How are my views irrelevant? I’ll leave you be, but that’s your prerogative. My point is that the nukes could have been shown for international display without casualties and explained to people that there’s more at stake now than our petty differences… the Americans would be seen as heroes and the world would probably be a lot safer. If everyone in the world (as you claim) knew we had exactly 2, we could have only detonated 1 to show what the situation is… so basically Truman was an asshole and there was no point to it.
Right, and I showed you why that wasn’t true, and instead of going “Oh, I wasn’t aware of that”, you tried to tell me about the magic ability of kamikaze aircraft to fly 6000 miles and destroy the U.S. nuclear project which was located you-know-not-where and defended you-know-not-how. That’s why your views are irrelevant, you’re throwing out unfounded bullshit and making me do all the work of explaining reality to you, so you can try to poke more holes in it with the next wave of unfounded, unresearched bullshit. Of course you think you’re right, when your opinions are completely divested from reality and you haven’t done the research, the truth will seem obvious to you because you have seen nothing to refute it. But I’m not your social studies teacher.
Sorry i didn’t see the earlier comment, it makes sense though.
A force which works with more than one universe [if there is a multiverse there must be one], or i think zero-point energy weapons are conceivable [i don’t know]. There’s many ways to kill lots of people, if the only philosophy being employed is expediency.
Isn’t it true that the allies simply took it for granted that they were in the right…?
Exactly. It’s that being in the right thing again ~ childish as that may sound.
The Japanese had the Naval capacity to send kamakzis to the pacific even though the pacific theater was highly controlled… if it hadn’t been for the russians, the americans would have lost the war. Even though the japanese weren’t as industrialized as the americans, they were the side using the best war tactic known to humans… the Japanese could have taken this country. What was it, something like 100,000 whites who enslaved 4,000,000 blacks. I think Uccisore needs to brush up on his history and game theory.