Nuremberg and the Rule of Law

I have a bone to pick with columnist Charley Reese. In a recent article he was commenting on the upcomming military trials of terrorist suspects. He says that this is just vengance dressed as Law and no better than the Nuremberg trials of Nazi war criminals…in his mind there seems to be no such think as a war crime. he begins by saying:
“President Bush is correct to refer to the proposed military trials of the six alleged terrorists as similar to the Nuremberg trials of several Nazis. In both cases, the law is made a farce.”
I would not applaud our Commander in Chief’s use of comparative history. It downgrades the uniqueness of the Holocaust. Flying a suicide mission in an airplane was not new. The target was different, the aircraft were commercial and filled with innocent civilians but these were means to an end and not an end in themselves. The Nazis’ camps were dissaembly lines. It was murder on an industrial level. There was no target other than extermination. Again, I am not saying that taking aircraft passengers hostage and flying them into a building is not horrible, but compared to Nazis’ crimes…there is no comparasion. We have seen religious wars. We have seen suicide attacks, but we never saw and hopefully never will the world see again the Nazi machine of genocide. Mr Reese continues:

“In the case of the Nazis, if the Allies wanted vengeance, and they did, they should have rounded up the Nazi leadership and shot them. That, at least, would have been an honest act of vengeance. Instead, they set up a propaganda farce at Nuremberg and pretended they were going to provide a fair trial to the defendants.”
Mr Reese seems to be ignorant of what did happened during the trials, although I cannot fanthom why that is, since he is old enough to have been close to the events. If Nuremberg was just propaganda and the outcome never in question that they would all be shot then how come some were not shot and some even found innocent of the charges made against them? Some like Albert Speer were given 20 years imprisionment…so much for vengance by firing squad. Maybe Mr Reese would have preferred firing squads right away, but that would have made martyrs and given credit to the Nazi ideology. The trials were made to expose the moral and philosophical bankarupcy of the Nazi ideology. Is that propaganda? Not when the opposite result is obviously repugnant.
Our author though contests that the germans had violated no law…no positive law perhaps. The laws of germany had obviously been made to favor the nefarius designs of the Third Reich. So what then? Is the holocaust not a crime because the executioner’s Law said this was legal? This, interestingly enough was Goering’s defense, and now an american is going to repeat it? As he sees it: “The Allies, to remedy that, dreamed up some laws that had hitherto not existed.”
So there is not a virtually universal condemnation for murdering innocents? Is it not immoral? And is not Law prescriptive of moral values? Does it not direct the population by proscribing what it ought to or ought not to do?
Fine, ignore my questions, but here is another argument: Positive Law is just that: dreaming up laws that had hitherto not existed. The allies then pursued justice as everyone has done before and will so after.
Mr Reese adds:
“They said that launching a war of aggression was a crime. If that’s the case, George W. Bush had better stay out of the reach of any international tribunal, because that’s exactly what he did in Afghanistan and Iraq.”

He has a point here, but that was not the only accusation. Counts 1 and 2 were directed to the method of conducting war, and we must admit that the germans were very original in their performance of a war. They certainly were not guided by the priciples set by Von Clawswitz. Counts 3 and 4 are linked to the holocaust. Mr Reese has a particular view on the matter:

“Then they said that there was such a thing as a crime against humanity. Since humanity encompasses the whole human race, and since no Nazi crime was ever committed beyond the reach of the German army, which was confined to Europe and, for a short time, North Africa, obviously the Nazis were not guilty of that.”

A crime against humanity is not a crime against the entire population of the earth but against a body of people. You don’t need to attack every people on earth, but pursue, on a large scale, the demise of a body of people, of a people.

The Mr Reese says in brief:

“All I’m saying is that it was a mistake to disguise vengeance in the robes of the law. Doing so made a farce of the rule of law, and we are paying for it today. We are now stuck with an international tribunal free to charge anyone with “crimes against humanity” on a purely arbitrary basis. Practically, that means any petty leader unfortunate enough to lose a war can find himself on trial. Some Israeli leaders, for example, are afraid to travel in Europe, lest they be arrested and charged with war crimes.”

First of all, in my opinion, Law is always arbitrary. Asks yourself if someone ever asked you whether marihuana should be illegal or if the speed limit should be 55-65 mph? Do you know all the Laws? I doubt, but that won’t stop someone from charging you with a crime, though it would be an arbitrary indictment. For polygamists, their custom should be legal, but the goverment has arbitraterly concluded that it should be illegal. That is how stuff works. Laws are not unanimous so therefore, for some, it has to be arbitrary. Second of all, the nazis were not “petty”, the holocaust was not just “petty” anything. The gravity of the circumstances justified the proceedings in my opinion. People jump to quickly to equate Bush with Hitler or Israelis with Nazis which is ridiculous and sad.

I couldn’t find the article you refer to, but I read enough Charley Reese articles to find plenty of meaty bones.

He seems a good example of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. That is, a body of knowledge that fails to recognize those bits unknown, and settles for assumptions to fill in the gaps.

My disconnect with the terrist tribunals is GWs public announcements that these ‘‘bad’’ people are guilty, prior to any trial, which is totally counter to accepted principals.

and you really think the us has never engaged in genocide?

-Imp

We had to kill all those indians.

I fail to understand how anyone could see a number of people put on trial by their avowed enemies and call it “fair” …

It’s nothing but theatrics.

How come we have some native americans left then? Genocide, as the Nazis understood it, was not about setting separate regions for jews, though that is what they said to justify the deportations, among other things. The Final Solution was not a partial one. It meant the death of every man woman and child seen to be a jew.

O- It was the measure that distinguished the allies from the Nazis: They were given a chance to be found innocent…as indeed some were…as a result of a trial in which they were given a chance to defend themselves and their actions. However jews, as a whole, were found “guilty” by the Germans for nothing, no actions, just “race”; no trial for Anne Frank. She “deserved” death?
And if it was “theatrics”, then it was the most necessary theater entretaintment, a tragedy really, which catharsis was the revelation to the entire world what would normally have gone unnoticed…ever since war has been held to a standard. Ever since war is not a blank check to roll out cruelty.
Don’t get me wrong. I know that certain leaders that should be prosecuted walk about in freedom…that does not affect the issue. We have O.J. Simpson walking free, but that does not mean that we say now that murder is ok. The Nuremberg Trials gave us the vocabulary needed to prosecute genocide, to criticise leaders, to hold them to a standard that encompases everyone, somehow, regardless of their relative situation. The Trials open up the field and removed the excuse that might makes right. Again, I know that there are tortures, Guantanamo, Abu Ghrabi(?) etc, etc, but prior to Nuremberg what could one say? Might did make Right. No one presumed of a natural law that presided over all nations and people, standards that should or ought never to be broken. One’s aggression was solely curbed by force and no one could speak of a right being broken.
Mr Reese says that we now live in a world in which any petty leader who finds himself in the losing side of a conflict can be tried for “crimes”. The reality is that we live in a world in which even the winning leader is accussed of “crimes” (See Nader on Bush). Will a winner ever be brought to trial? Of course not, but posterity will be denied to them. People who seek high office, high positions, want a legacy, want to write history and be remembered as heroes. It is not about putting behind bars so and so, but to denounce such actions and discourage their pursuit.

The fact that some Americans dissuaded others from the total destruction of all native Americans does not alter the fact that the dissuasion was necessary. Because Jews still exist should we not categorize the actions of the Holocaust as genocide?

The history of mans inhumanity is reasonable justification for the prosecution of persons who violate the international agreements which were established for that purpose.

The Nuremberg trials suffer from the fact that they preceded many of the Geneva protocols and other international law.

Since the current terrist suspects are accused of criminal acts of war against the United States a more reasonable venue for their trials is the I.C.C. beyondintractability.org/ess … tribunals/

If these accused are to be considered criminals, who were extradited without proper procedure to this country for prosecution, they should be treated like any other person accused of a crime.

Any of these accused who were arrested on battlefields or in their home country defending against an armed invasion should reasonably be treated as prisoners of war.

@omar:

You are ignoring the point that it is hypocritical and pointless for a man to be put on “trial” by his enemies and expect some sort of impartial result.

No more, no less.

O- This is what I addressed before. Trials are never impartial, at least when it comes to murderers. You are put on trial by enemies. Certainly you don’t expect his friends to bring him to a trial, do you? So what is your complain? It is empty. It is the way that law and so called justice works. The system is rigged to give the accused the benefit of the doubt. The accusers believe him to be guilty, but the jury is instructed to consider him innocent until proven otherwise beyond reasonable doubt.
At Nuremberg some were decidedly guilty. Goering was going to die at the end, without any further ado. But what about the others? Men whose involvement was ambiguous? What if they began by enabling the Reich but then changed their minds? Or what if they did not know about the Final Solution? Are you going to send them before a firing squad, along with Goering, or are going to give them a chance to convince you tyhat they are not heartless and inhuman and that something may still redemn them? Frankly, I am afraid of people who decry the Trials because they call “pointless” the very theory of due process.

This is why the International Criminal Court was established, so people accused of war crimes and international crimes could get a fair trial. Unfortunately, the US, a few other large countries, and a number of small coerced countries have not accepted the validity of of the ICC because they are not interested in a fair trail, while they can presently act with impunity without consideration of reprisal.

Everyone has a home country, this just isn’t relevant if a person is fighting in defence of an ally. Some are not prisoners of war. cont. …

This addresses the distinction between war and criminal actions. When the United States military attacked people in Afganistan, this was undeniably war. When planes were flown into buildings by people unaligned with a particular country, whatever the reason, this was a criminal act. The Geneva conventions are not applicable to criminal acts, and as you say, rightfully provide no protection for accused criminals. Settled law does provide protection for the rights of accused criminals.

I disagree. Terrorism, as an act of war, is covered by the conventions and other treaties. Action against an act of terror not associated with a war between recognized governments is covered by statutory laws. Laws exist against arson, willful destruction of property, extortion, assault, theft, murder …

The size or national make-up of any particular criminal organization is immaterial. If six people execute a crime, or twelve people loosely associated with a hundred thousand execute a crime, it is still a crime.

Personal actions by individuals or groups of individuals not sanctioned by a government do not constitute an act of war. See also covert operations.

@omar:

Trials are conducted by those who enjoy posing as the impartial and supremely self-righteous dispensers of justice; the defenders of the law and keepers of the peace, no?

How can Islamic terrorists, held on trial by their chosen enemies, either want or expect “justice”, or recieve this from a set of laws that they do not recognise or support?

the rule of law…

suppose hitler invaded england instead of the ussr and actually won ww2…

the “trials” would have been against western “heroes” and statesmen…

the victors always decide the law, the moral action, the right and the wrong…

law as vengance of the victor extracting one last ounce of revenge from the fallen foe? of course…

-Imp

My thoughts exactly.

=D>

“Enjoy posing”? “Impartial”? “Self-righteous”? Tell me do you think that any judge presiding over a trial has to, necessarly, be enjoying the pose of being Righteous or Impartial? I think we are past these myths, or should be. You are passing a caricature of the justice system. It is never that extreme and it is not necessary for the process of a trial. Of course, part of Goering’s defense was to discredit the judges appointed, self-appointed, over him. How can the US sit in judgment of the holcaust when it dropped two atomic bombs on the Empire of Japan? But what this accentuates is how extra-ordinary Aushwitz was. Dropping bombs on cities? That was already done before. To make lamp shades out of your victims? That is extraordinary.

Terrorists are brought to trial not because they want justice but because we want justice and we have this as part of the process of getting justice. I think that there are points of this process that have to be addressed but none of this invalidates the contributions of the Nuremberg Trials. Bringing terror suspects to trials is not a farce. Bringing war criminals to trial does not depend upon the impecable moral authority of the presiding body. And despite the differences between laws from nation to nation, certain constants do remain. Certain taboos that are expected to bring consequences.

I am not sure at all that Nazis would have brought western leaders to court. It is war. Bombing cities of no military value is questionable. But like I said above justice does not depend on the righteousness of the judge. I add here that the judge is not without sin either and may himself be guilty. All that said, Adolf Hitler was fond of holding NO court. He was the State, after all and the embodiment of it’s Law, and we already see that an entire people was denied a trial and sent directly to the executioners. There are occasions in which the winner will be able to hold accountable and with as much right, the loser. But there are other occasions in which the sides are diametrically opposed, and Hitler’s Party was not made of jurist…that would have been for them evidence of a tainted blood, for jews have the profession of lawyer monopolized, in their opinion, I am sure.

This whole idea of the “victor decides the law”, or “might makes right”…is pretty ridiculous. These people are NOT accused of having ugly uniforms, or speaking german. If it was just the caprise of the victor that determined the accussations then let’s go hog wild. Instead we see very much standard crime: murder, mass-murder…over-agressive war was a strech, I agree, but not completely unwarranted either. I am interested in what motivated the Final Solution. I believe that everyone acts according to a particular moral standard. These moral standards are not that bizarre either. They tend to resemble on many crucial points which are probably traceable to our common human situation (not nature). Undeserved death strikes us all, it seems, as a wrong. So the question is why did the jews deserved to be executed as they were?

Oh, I thought the question was; What is the appropriate venue for prosecuting war criminals and international terrorists? Never mind.

“Justice” is another word for “revenge”, but with a positive, self-aggrandising spin upon it.

You don’t know what the hell you’re talking about and it shows. I think the idealism is getting to you.

the party who had the power believed they had the moral authority to act as they did.

the nazis did it

the soviets did it

the colonists did it

the jihadists did it

the inquisitors did it

the crusaders did it

the mongols did it

the romans did it

the greeks did it

the macedonians did it

each had the moral authority to do as their power dictated they do…

history never repeats.

-Imp