Occupy Wall Street?

[size=150]Occupy Wall Street?[/size]

The last issue of Montclarion, a student newspaper at Montclair State University, published an article of Grover Furr, about the Occupy Wall Street movement:

themontclarion.org/archives/3740261

Yes, rich people always want to be richer and richer. This is unfortunate; no one knows how to stop this, without taking away constructive motivation. What fraction of Bill Gates’ fortune is consumed and what fraction is productively invested? My guess is that the first fraction is much less than 10%, and that he is not a rare exception.

What does Professor Furr have to offer us? Consider a complex machine which works but not perfectly. Anyone can destroy it; no advanced knowledge is usually needed to accomplish this. But one has to be highly knowledgeable in order to repair it, or to design a better replacement. I am thinking about sophisticated engines, airplanes, TV sets, X ray scanners, computers, airconditioners, oil refineries, etc.

The same is true for an economic system. No system is perfect; but some are more efficient than others. Trying to destroy US capitalism without offering something better is likely to create a lot of misery. I am thinking about what Lenin and Stalin did, as decribed in my two short books. These books are now freely available online; the links are at:

pages.csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/links.html

Note that even now, one hundred years after the Soviet revolution, standards of living in Russia are much lower than in the US, and in other western countries.
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Capitalism only works for the top 5%.

Please try again.

[Your basic assumption is that capitalism benefits everybody equally or in some sort of manner.]

Poor people in capitalist countries are richer than professionals in the developing world.

It is about time someone said something about this, but again, I see that liberals have forgotten about socialism. I wish that they had lived in a socialist economy before opening their traps. At least they would be more informed.
Simple point: Capitalism is the least of two evils. It is not perfect, but neither is it’s alternative. Capitalism works for everybody willing to work. This country, and it’s capitalism, has been a beacon to those willing to risk their capital to try to strike it big. EVERYONE wants to be richer, or at least to have more money than they do. I have the big fish in wall street getting fatter by the minute, but look at Obama, look at Cain, self-made men.
Problems like health care are big but who has to pay for health-care? The rich? What do you think that they will open up their coffers and give their money away…no, no, that is not how it works: the cost is passed on to the consumer. Now that person who didn’t have enough to afford health insurance will have no coice but to have it even if something else in her life goes to hell.
Unions protect the weak, the lazy. People show up to lounge around because they are protected. The hard-worker does not need unions. People are complaining about no jobs available. On the contrary. Jobs abound. Just ask Alabama farmers. But the American worker is not what it once was. We have lost the work ethic that made this country great. Instead we now have to borrow that work ethic from elsewhere. Movements like the one in wall st further erode personal striving, personal authority, responsibility and respectability.

Don’t get me wrong. We have some that need help, that need welfare, that need the help of the state because, not by their own choice, they cannot compete in the capitalist system. The State, and tax-payer money, should help everyone to have a chance at succeding on their own, but not to dumb our country, to level it to the lowest denominator, to reward mediocrity and laziness. I prefer Capitalism a thousand times because it rewards hard work, rewards risk taking, striving, entrepeneurship.

Worst of all, this is an argument we have heard before, in Germany, by a man called Adolf.

I am no friend of the Tea Party, believe me, because I do believe in Social Security and Medicare and reforming the tax code to pay for it. But I am not ready to get further down the slope by universalizing these social programs and taking punitive taxes on the rich. The has to be balance, there has to be caution. This is not the time to speak in the absolutes we hear comming from the Tea Party or from the OWM.

that’s true only if one accepts various arbitrary capitalist definitions of poor, rich, etc . . . in the actual world, these things are all relative

Karl Marx.

I’m writing this in response to all the people here who have met the OWS movement and participants with derision. I’ve often wondered if that derision doesn’t stem from fear. If so, is that fear based on SOCIALISM–and is that Socialism the Socialism as defined by the movements that led to WWII?

The NAZI party was the National Socialist German Workers’ Party, but it was actually more Nationalist than Socialist. Another fear could come from a misunderstanding of Fascism, because of the alliance between Hitler and Mussolini. In fact, Italian Fascism was both anti-liberal and anti-conservatism–while being pro-Nationalist. So it seems, if my analysis is valid, that the nay-sayers among the anti-OWS don’t have a clear understanding of socialism today. Please note: that’s socialism with a lower-case ‘s’.

Another thing: the OWS movement has no clear goal. In fact, it does–It wants to make the citizens of the US aware of the economic challenges we now face and the repercussions of Wall Street greed and dishonesty felt by the entire Western World. As one of our new-found friends in Germany said, “If the US economy fails, all other economies (in the Western World) will also fail.”

At least we’re leaders in something.

Why send your child to college at an ever increasing level of tuition, if there are no jobs for her/him upon graduation. I’m not talking about a job that earns a good wage–I’m talking about a job that pays a wage that meets the cost of living. For all of you who say there are “plenty” of jobs available, why is our national unemployment rate at 9-9+ percent? For all of y’all who think this is a throw-back to the ‘hippie’ movement or that the male participants are, for the most part, involved because they want to ‘score,’ why have so many members of the academe become backers of the movement? (Google it.)

The people involved in the movement are not lazy, good for nothing bums. They’re intelligent people–young and older–who recognize dishonesty and amorality when it presents itself as Capitalism.

The goal is recognition of the inequities of power–the power that money brings–whether corporate or personal–in today’s world.

Hello lizbeth,

— I’m writing this in response to all the people here who have met the OWS movement and participants with derision. I’ve often wondered if that derision doesn’t stem from fear.
O- No. It comes from those that work two, maybe even three jobs, 16-20 hours days. Why? So that we can give it away to everyone simply because they are “citizens”? It is not fear, for fear is often ignorant. It is worry, weariness of what one has seen. I have seen socialism in action in Europe. Not for me, and not from many others who come to this country because of the freedoms it secures for those that work, those who sacrifice.

— If so, is that fear based on SOCIALISM–and is that Socialism the Socialism as defined by the movements that led to WWII?
O- I don’t compare them to the high rhetoric of those movements but to the populist tapping that they set on fire. “We are the 99%”, we are the good, the victims, the innocents. So what does that make of the 1%?

— The NAZI party was the National Socialist German Workers’ Party, but it was actually more Nationalist than Socialist.
O- I would say racialist. But I was not saying that the OWS are racists or nazis, but that Adolf manage to gain power in part by playing on the popular feelings of desert, those that in Germany at the time considered themselves, sorta like, the “99%” and the jews money-grubbing corrupt 1%.

— Another fear could come from a misunderstanding of Fascism, because of the alliance between Hitler and Mussolini. In fact, Italian Fascism was both anti-liberal and anti-conservatism–while being pro-Nationalist. So it seems, if my analysis is valid, that the nay-sayers among the anti-OWS don’t have a clear understanding of socialism today. Please note: that’s socialism with a lower-case ‘s’.
O- I don’t know where you get your ideas about Fascism, but I think that you overplay your adjectives, “anti” this or that. Absent is how YOU define liberalism and conservatism or how YOU think Mussolini understood either. What is relevant in both Adolf and Benito is not Nationalism but the faith each had, and inspired people to have, in the Leviathan. Freedom of choice becomes a crime. They become prophets of the “People”, the “99%”, if you will.
Now take the OWS movement. They say we are the 99%, but are they? Who are then the Tea Party members? The 1% ultra rich? They speak for a fantasy they created to pursue political agendas. Simple as that. There is no 99 anymore than there was a people. Not being rich does not mean that people blame Wall Street for their lack of money. Many of those in that top ten percent once belonged to the other 90 percent. And those well below that, like myself, work because I believe in the principle of inequality, that to each it should be given according to their strive and effort. And that since it is I that drops sweat from his brow that it should be I and not some politician, who decides what should pay for. Should we all pay for infrastructure? Yes. Should we pay for the care of those to old to work or those with a handicap? Again yes. But that I should pay for the care of those that could work and pay for it by their labor? I know of no higher BS.

— Another thing: the OWS movement has no clear goal. In fact, it does–It wants to make the citizens of the US aware of the economic challenges we now face and the repercussions of Wall Street greed and dishonesty felt by the entire Western World.
O- Greed? How about those to greedy for a house that they KNEW they could not afford. How about the honesty of those who lied about their available income?

— Why send your child to college at an ever increasing level of tuition, if there are no jobs for her/him upon graduation.
O- Because knowledge is power, if not here, somewhere in the world. We have a lack of qualified experts in the medical profession that is being filled by educated immigrants. Like them, prepare your child to be competitive in the whole world and not just in their back yard and in such a way they will be great wherever they be.

— I’m not talking about a job that earns a good wage–I’m talking about a job that pays a wage that meets the cost of living.
O- Cost of living is relative. Haven’t I taken a loss during this recession? Didn’t I have, like many others, to sell my second car? You have to live according to your means, not according to what degree is collecting dust in the attic.

— For all of you who say there are “plenty” of jobs available, why is our national unemployment rate at 9-9+ percent?
O- Because certain jobs are not what americans want to do. See Alabama.

— For all of y’all who think this is a throw-back to the ‘hippie’ movement or that the male participants are, for the most part, involved because they want to ‘score,’ why have so many members of the academe become backers of the movement? (Google it.)
O- Because it has humanistic appeal, that dream of balancing the scales on our own once and for all. Soviet Socialism (Lenin’s) may have lost it’s luster, but Marxism dominated THE academia for decades.

— The people involved in the movement are not lazy, good for nothing bums. They’re intelligent people–young and older–who recognize dishonesty and amorality when it presents itself as Capitalism.
O- Look at the dichotomy you set: OWS are intelligent, dishonesty, immorality, which of course is the definition or guiding characteristic of Capitalism. On the other hand you have…Capitalists, who are greedy, dishonest, amoral. This is a rejection of humanity as is for a humanity that doesn’t yet exist.

— The goal is recognition of the inequities of power–the power that money brings–whether corporate or personal–in today’s world.
O- The inequity of power, of money, is not entirely natural but far more natural than the parity and equity they would otherwise impose upon us all.

Capitalism is at the heart of socialism, communism dictatorship etc. etc. All humans are capitalists. Can’t help it because every living thing on this planet is a capitalist.
So i prefer the honesty of a “Capitalist” system. At least folks in those systems are being honest about something. If you ain’t dead you are ahead.

Why do you, or anyone else, work two- three jobs? Why do you, or anyone else, work 16-20 hour days? Who asked you to give your money away to anyone? You realize, I’m sure, that when people multiple jobs they’re taking jobs away from people who remain unemployed. My husband and I just (about 3 hrs. ago) returned from a very special trip to Germany, a social Democracy and the place where I lived my early formative years–although I’m not German. I learned a lot in the short time we were there, because my German came back and I was able to talk to people in the trams, on the streets, and in the hotels. One thing came through loud and clear with the people to whom I spoke–they’re worried. They’re worried about the same things we’re worried about. When money is to be made, corporations step in and leave the people poor. The balance between a normal wage and the cost of living is becoming more and more separated and consumer goods are getting to be very expensive. We wandered back streets and found shoes costing over 120 Euros–that’s over $300 USD–a simple night shirt can cost 50-80 Euros ($125-$200 US.) Why are things so expensive?

Global trade seems to be the culprit. I’ve said in an earlier post in another thread that the idea behind global trade was to ‘equalize’ the countries of the world economically. This means that the richer countries would be forced to lower their standards of living in order to raise the standard of living among the poorer countries–a great ‘leveling off.’

Omar, I’m interested in what you found objectionable to socialism in action in Europe. Will you explain, please?

I haven’t heard anyone say the 99% are the good, the victims or the innocents. I haven’t even heard anyone other than the press break the population down into percentiles–99% vs. 1%. Such a breakdown is obviously erroneous–first because, as you’ve said, it doesn’t take into account the TEAparty, which isn’t a political party; but was/is, rather, a politically-based protest movement which has grounded itself in the ideology of the Republican Party–i.e., it is pro-corporations. But it also doesn’t want to lose any of its privileges under the existing social structure–it wants no cuts to any of the social programs under which it benefits. The OWS movement wants to put the blame for existing conditions on the structures that have caused those conditions.

I’ll have to continue this tomorrow–We traveled all day yesterday and today–from Fuessen to Frankfurt and from Frankfurt to Seattle–with about 5 hrs. of sleep in Frankfurt.

But I have to ask this before I leave. Given a ‘down-sized’ government, how many people will be added to the unemployed ranks. Where will the money come from to ‘take care’ of those people who’s joblessness will need social programs in order to survive?

There are too many variables to get a really clear picture of our current lack of an economy. What IS clear is that wealth is being concentrated heavily in the top tiers of capitalization -ie- the 1%. Or if you prefer, the top 2 or 3 or whatever number you find valid. This isn’t even arguable. The data available proves this completely. The social unrest caused by a failed economy is obvious: The tea partiers blame the government and occupy blames the money people. Both are right as long as we stay away from all the extreme examples both sides manage to drag into the us-them scenarios. What is clear? There is no level playing field. Joe Sixpack can’t find a job, or has to work two or three just to survive. When Americans are losing their homes - and not just the people who shouldn’t have bought a home in the first place, but the people with good educations who have been “downsized” and no longer have enough income to stay afloat, and corporate execs are still taking multi-million dollar salaries? If you can’t see the imbalance of this, then you’re legally blind. Incidentally, what sort of system forces Joe Sixpack and his wife to work more than one job to make a living? Isn’t there a message there?

The socialism bugaboo: This country has practiced some form of socialism since the end of the civil war. Any progressive government has done the same regardless the labels. The question isn’t whether we should practice socialism, but at what level. I’m sick and tired of listening to people bad mouth socialism as if taking care of the citizenry is something BAD. The current squabble has the extreme right wanting to take away the social safety net - but not from them, just the “other” people - the ones who have the least political power. If you’re decrying the social safety net, then it is obvious that you have never read history and you’ve simply bought the extreme right bullet points. Do our entitlement programs need adjusted? Damn betcha. Clean up some of the abuses, and build programs that, once in place, can’t be meddled with by politicians. I find it apalling that the politicians who grew the burdens of entitlement costs to buy votes are now willing to throw the american people under the bus.

Right now, we have no answers. Everyone seems to understand the imbalance of wealth distribution and the abuses of the corporate/government structure. But we are locked in an us-them paradigm that has yet to run its course. The unrest will continue for several more years until BOTH the money people and the wage slaves are bothing losing. Then there can be some sensible dialog and productive answers.

this sentence left a funny taste in my mouth. consuming and productively investing are not mutually exclusive.

Hello lizbeth,

— Why do you, or anyone else, work two- three jobs? Why do you, or anyone else, work 16-20 hour days?
O- Because if you are prepared to continue in a certain standard of living then you must be prepared to do what it takes.

— Who asked you to give your money away to anyone?
O- It’s called taxes.

— You realize, I’m sure, that when people multiple jobs they’re taking jobs away from people who remain unemployed.
O- I believe that if I got the job ahead of them it was because I was a better “fit” for that company. In order to remain employed I have had to take jobs at wages below the market value for someone of my expertise. Some people are prepared to “sit it out” rather than get a job that may later hurt their asking price. If they take this job for this little money when they should have been offered much more, then the next employer, they feel ( I have asked), will bump that little money only slightly, thus they can go for years working for less than what they consider to be the fair value for their talents.

— My husband and I just (about 3 hrs. ago) returned from a very special trip to Germany, a social Democracy and the place where I lived my early formative years–although I’m not German. I learned a lot in the short time we were there, because my German came back and I was able to talk to people in the trams, on the streets, and in the hotels. One thing came through loud and clear with the people to whom I spoke–they’re worried. They’re worried about the same things we’re worried about. When money is to be made, corporations step in and leave the people poor. The balance between a normal wage and the cost of living is becoming more and more separated and consumer goods are getting to be very expensive. We wandered back streets and found shoes costing over 120 Euros–that’s over $300 USD–a simple night shirt can cost 50-80 Euros ($125-$200 US.) Why are things so expensive?
O- Army or Air Force brat? Germany is one of the better economies. One place you won’t hear as much is France because what the Euro did was to elevate the French rate to the Union. France was an expensive place to shop and now you see that costliness everywhere in the Union. A USD is worth about .75 Euros so I think that you were being jacked if you pay literally what you say in USD.

— Global trade seems to be the culprit.
O- No, the culprit is the European Union. England did not get in the fray and their equivalence in dollars has not shifted as dramatically, and after seeing the chaos created in middle of the road economies like Italy and Spain, Northern Ireland declined to join in. The Euro opened up the road for trade within the Union but the highest economies where the ones that really benefitted. Italy for example has seen a flood of french investesment in retail stores which slowly but surely are pushing out “i mercati” that once flourished and adorned every plaza in pisturesque towns. Aushan, for all effects, is the European Walmart.
When the economy of Italy was based in lire, it undersold french products, creating economic opportunity in markets abroad. But with the introduction of the Euro, italian products are priced the equivalent of french products; in fact their price has increased in part due to their inability to sell in bulk. Now an item has to bring in the revenue of what used to be two or three.

— I’ve said in an earlier post in another thread that the idea behind global trade was to ‘equalize’ the countries of the world economically. This means that the richer countries would be forced to lower their standards of living in order to raise the standard of living among the poorer countries–a great ‘leveling off.’
O- And yet that is not what has happened. Basically they sold them on a dream, but the truth is that the bigger economies grew and middle economies, like Italy, Spain and Greece suffered most.

— Omar, I’m interested in what you found objectionable to socialism in action in Europe. Will you explain, please?
O- Take in consideration health care. Should the government force you to buy health insurance? In America this part of Obama’s health care reform is being challenged by judges across the land. In Italy the government is socialist and so there is no question- you will buy health care from the State. This is what people don’t understand. It sounds good. All these countries have state-sponsored health care. But those doctors in the system do not eat peanuts. They are highly educated and expect high wages. The State does not grow money- it takes money. The problem is that you have no choice but to pay. If you don’t pay they can simply put a lien on your home and threaten everything you have sacrificed for. Social Security and Medicare are becoming, very quickly, unsustainable, so why should we think that MORE socialist programs are the answer to our problems?

— I haven’t heard anyone say the 99% are the good, the victims or the innocents. I haven’t even heard anyone other than the press break the population down into percentiles–99% vs. 1%. Such a breakdown is obviously erroneous–first because, as you’ve said, it doesn’t take into account the TEAparty, which isn’t a political party; but was/is, rather, a politically-based protest movement which has grounded itself in the ideology of the Republican Party–i.e., it is pro-corporations. But it also doesn’t want to lose any of its privileges under the existing social structure–it wants no cuts to any of the social programs under which it benefits. The OWS movement wants to put the blame for existing conditions on the structures that have caused those conditions.
O- Have any of them any inclination to look at themselves and see how their own actions played a role in “causing” these conditions? It is like someone who moves 35 miles, one way from work and them loses everything because gas went up in price. But did the trade in their SUV, their Rams and F-150 and got a honda civic? No. Did they sell their home? No. Did they rent their home to someone who worked in their side of town and got an apartment nearer to their work? No. Sure, speculators created the increase in the price of gas, but seeing that it was going up for months, not weeks, steadily, not in fits, should have given those involved the motivation to make changes for themselves instead of waiting on others to help them and then, of course, blaming others when the S#it hits the fan. I already explained how people that I know have brounght unfortune on themselves by their choices and that choice entails responsibility as it is we that create or not our future. I don’t see mexicans there, or immigrants that have come to work in the US, I don’t see those seeking visas to enter the US to pursue their dreams. They don’t blame others because the feeling of power, of choice and responsibility is strong in them.

— But I have to ask this before I leave. Given a ‘down-sized’ government, how many people will be added to the unemployed ranks. Where will the money come from to ‘take care’ of those people who’s joblessness will need social programs in order to survive?
O- Like I said, I am not a Tea Bagger precisely because I don’t believe that the solution is simply to reduce spending without increasing revenue. But where do you place personal responsibility in all of this? There is work to be done, it is just not the kind of work americans want or for the wages most americans want… We are condemned to be free. So long as we DEPEND on govt for our job situation we will be victims. Where will the money come to take care of the people…how about from the sweat of their own brows instead of mine?

Hi, Omar,

If I seem garbled, I blame it on jet lag–I slept through 1 Nov. and it’s now close to 4am my time, 2 Nov.–bad program, probably, but it happened.

Anyway, I’ll start with the unessential first–Yes, my father was an Army officer. We were stationed in Germany twice for a total of about 7 years. The exchange rate now is 1EUD=2.50USD, which means that 120 EUs = $300USD–which is why our hotel host, Oytun Asland (a Turkish German,) in Nuremberg was concerned with wages keeping up with the CoL.

I think your first sentence says a lot:

I asked:

— Why do you, or anyone else, work two- three jobs? Why do you, or anyone else, work 16-20 hour days?
O- Because if you are prepared to continue in a certain standard of living then you must be prepared to do what it takes.

I think you meant, If you want to maintain your standard of living, that’s what you have to do. My question is why?–Why does anyone–in the less than 3 years since the beginning of the end–need to work so much simply to maintain a standard of living that’s somewhere above poverty level?

This has been in the works for much longer than 2-3 years, of course, and, as tentative said, there are simply too many variables to arrive at a single, simplistic answer. Aber, es tut mir leid, bitte–your answer, and others, is very simplistic.

You say you don’t want your taxes used for the safety nets social entitlement programs provide. What about your taxes being used to ‘bail out’ financial corporations that are just ‘too big’ to go under (the bail out programs were started by the Bush administration) only to be told that the upper management of those corporations still continue to earn huge salaries, bonuses, and retention and retirement packages–especially when you learn how many corporations pay no corporate taxes at all?–or when execs get around paying higher personal income taxes by taking a bunch of their salary in stock, which is taxed at a lower rate (over a set amount of capital gain) than personal income tax?

You see how difficult it is to come up with simple solutions?

The same is true for your first answer and now your third, where you said:

  • I believe that if I got the job ahead of them it was because I was a better “fit” for that company. In order to remain employed I have had to take jobs at wages below the market value for someone of my expertise. Some people are prepared to “sit it out” rather than get a job that may later hurt their asking price. If they take this job for this little money when they should have been offered much more, then the next employer, they feel ( I have asked), will bump that little money only slightly, thus they can go for years working for less than what they consider to be the fair value for their talents.

What you say is true–in part–but there are a lot of other factors, starting with not being able to be hired into a ‘position’ if you list “unemployed” for a given amount of time on your resume. Companies interpret that as ‘unemployable’ for whatever reason. Why do companies offer the same job at a lower rate? What are they doing with the money they’ve saved in wage “overhead?” Consumer prices haven’t gone down–they continue to rise. Stock dividends haven’t risen dramatically. Where’s the money? It’s not going into the economy through job availability or the US wouldn’t be at an over 9% unemployment rate.

And it will probably get worse. This is what I implied when I said, “Given a ‘down-sized’ government, how many people will be added to the unemployed ranks?” We had dinner with our daughter and her friends with whom she stayed off and on for the 2 months she was in Germany. He and his wife are Army and, he said, the Army is now facing across-the-board cuts because of the demand to cut the defense budget. Many of the enlistees are in the Military in order to have jobs and to get the training they were told they could carry with them into civilian life. What’s going to happen to those who get ‘riffed’ if there are no civilian jobs available?

Given all these questions, how can simple answers suffice?

I’m simply trying to face facts as I understand them. We live in a world economy–at least a Western World economy. (But it is a world economy and has been ever since the US started off-shoring so much manufacturing. BTW, where has that corporate savings helped the US economy and, again, where’s the money? Don’t you pay just as much money now for a blouse made off-shore as you did before for a blouse made in the US?)

Greece has now announced that it intends to put the proposed Euro-zone bailout with its contingencies to a national referendum vote. If the Greek people vote against the Euro-zone offer, how will that affect our economy? I know the stock market here is in turmoil as a result of that announcement.

If the OWS protesters target what they call Wall Street and corporate “greed,” it seems to me it’s because they see that “greed” as their simple answer to a situation that’s gone out of control–a situation that’s chaotic, at best, and a system that seems bent on destruction of the many for the good of the few.

Is this really “honest Capitalism?”

I think that, in the desire to come up with simple answers, there is way too much of the “blame the victim” game being played. Any citizen who is making the effort, should be able to find a job that allows them a modest living. When this becomes next to impossible, then we have to ask what is going on? The take-any-job-you-can-get attitude ignores the fact that many of the jobs being offered simply will not provide a living. Food, clothing, and shelter comes at pretty much a set price, and wages need to come very close to a match or the problems become apparent. Perhaps it would be different if there was no one making a living, but when there are people making millions while others are losing their homes and can’t find that make-a-living job, does this suggest an imbalance? It isn’t difficult to understand the prime motive behind the occupy movement. The dilemma is finding the right answers.

No small part of the problem is that we now live in a world economy. Yes, we have our national economy, but much of what is happening and what is possible lies outside our borders. Our national economy will never stabilize until we recognize and begin the international dialog that allows the world population to “make a living”. It is going to be a long drawn out process. But one thing is clear: The people on the bottom have had enough and change is coming, not just in the U.S., but world wide.

Hello lizbeth,

Never easy resetting your clock after a day on planes or airports. Practically one needs a vacation to recuperate from the vacation.

— I think you meant, If you want to maintain your standard of living, that’s what you have to do. My question is why?{/u]–Why does anyone–in the less than 3 years since the beginning of the end–[u]need to work so much simply to maintain a standard of living that’s somewhere above poverty level?
O- If you work two jobs and you are right at or just above the poverty level then you are doing something wrong. Some states, like South Caroplina will provide vocational training for free that will give you a chance to start working for Boeing, or BMW. Starting at 12+ an hour, in SC, I doubt that people will be forced into poverty. But again it takes an immigrant’s mentality of being prepared to move, to adjust as need be. If you live in Boston…maybe you should consider the south. And if you are not making it in the south then consider the far north. The idea is to survive until things improved and you will be better for it, because you will become a more marketable person by showing no gaps in job history and a steady, if not increasing, asking price. A friend of mine got our of the military, started at 11, took the same job but at a different location and improved to 15 and in a few months he is considering packing his belongins a third time to again take a similar job at a higher wage. This is Capitalism. Maybe more people ought to try it. Immigrants certainly are.

— You say you don’t want your taxes used for the safety nets social entitlement programs provide.
O- Because at some point, people on the “net” forget that it was not meant as a resting place and recalibrate themselves and expectations to include that safety net that is now just the “net”. Like medicine, people can develop a dependency which is not the purpose of said medicine or program. Worse, it might prevent people from having to make the hard choices that have to be made and which would have a more permanent effect.

— What about your taxes being used to ‘bail out’ financial corporations that are just ‘too big’ to go under (the bail out programs were started by the Bush administration) only to be told that the upper management of those corporations still continue to earn huge salaries, bonuses, and retention and retirement packages–especially when you learn how many corporations pay no corporate taxes at all?–or when execs get around paying higher personal income taxes by taking a bunch of their salary in stock, which is taxed at a lower rate (over a set amount of capital gain) than personal income tax?
O- Certain corporations, like Chrysler, have paid back what they got from the govt. Certain banks as well. Would we have been better off, you and me, if these banks and corporations had been allowed to fail, to declare bankarupcy? Two administrations, including the highly educated Obama, who is no friend of corporations, thought that it would be worse. I buy more than these administrations sought to prevent a greater crisis than the conspiracy theory that they were paid off or something.
Taxes are the way they are because they are used, and have been used for decades, as incentives for growth, in this case, investment, and it is fair because investment is risk. Do you have investments?

— What you say is true–in part–but there are a lot of other factors, starting with not being able to be hired into a ‘position’ if you list “unemployed” for a given amount of time on your resume.
O- I know that, which is one of the reasons I didn’t go into unemployment when I could have. I have one friend who went back to school full time and hopes that that will persuade employers when she comes back into the fray.

— Companies interpret that as ‘unemployable’ for whatever reason. Why do companies offer the same job at a lower rate?
O- Let me give you an example. You own a hanger where you do maintenance on aircraft at a certain rate, say, 60k. That pie includes manhours and parts, as well as rent and infrastructure. After taxes, whatever is left is yours. During this lockout by the NBA, you may have lost revenue due to less aircraft being flown. What was yours is now streched over longer periods. You could pound your loses onto the remaining customers you have and ask 65k instead of the 60, but that might drive them away, so you may have to cut elsewhere, for example manhours. Mechanic A has worked for you for 6-7 months, is paid 21/hr. But you have school graduates that can perform what he does and you can start them at 17/hr. Of course you hire at lower wages, you do not offer the job at a lower wage to the person who already has the job. What I saw, what usually happens is that they bring up disponibility, work-ethic or something else that they always knew but let pass, and now make it into issue number one. If Mechanic A becomes more industrius and shows up for more shifts, he might still be a burden to you as far as man hours, but you got a better workforce. But whereas mechanic A was flexible and adapted as needed, mechanic B, or C, or D might not be so accomodating. Maybe it is not even that. Maybe they were being paid 19/hr, but without a license, so now you use that as your reason, but of course that still saves you on manhours.

— We had dinner with our daughter and her friends with whom she stayed off and on for the 2 months she was in Germany. He and his wife are Army and, he said, the Army is now facing across-the-board cuts because of the demand to cut the defense budget. Many of the enlistees are in the Military in order to have jobs and to get the training they were told they could carry with them into civilian life. What’s going to happen to those who get ‘riffed’ if there are no civilian jobs available?
O- I was in the Navy for 20. I just recently left the service. All enlisted. I worked in Administration the last 3. During that time the Navy began reductions in all ranks, but again, and in accordance with my theory, what I saw was a culling of the weak and the inflexible. First off they started with a person’s evaluations. Those with reprimands in conduct, or bad scores in the PFT were not given permission to re-enlist. Those that were stellar were allowed to remain in rate and re-enlist as they wanted. Those that were avergae, in over-manned speacialties, were given the option to re-classify to a speacialty the Navy needed to man, or get out.
But I am not too worried about my brothers and sisters. They all have the 9-11 G.I. Bill for example, plus all the training they got, and not just on a vocation but in life, giving them a discipline that employers seek. Having a DD-214 is priceless as well as an active or former Security Clearance. On top of that they get a week to two weeks of training in how to successfully transition to civilian life. Trust me they will be fine.

— Given all these questions, how can simple answers suffice?
O- I agree that they can’t. But if the answer is “safety net” programs then we are in trouble. Socialism is a simple answers that, let’s just say, I don’t agree with. I don’t mind if the govt has these programs, but let’s not expand on them because this country cannot sustain even what it has in place. Raise taxes, yes, but not to hand out money, and hope that americans will be more military minded and do what it takes, work the farm, work the construction site, get their hands dirty. That is what I am not sure the 9% are willing or able to do, for various reasons.

— I’m simply trying to face facts as I understand them. We live in a world economy–at least a Western World economy. (But it is a world economy and has been ever since the US started off-shoring so much manufacturing. BTW, where has that corporate savings helped the US economy and, again, where’s the money? Don’t you pay just as much money now for a blouse made off-shore as you did before for a blouse made in the US?)
O- The corporate gains were re-invested I would suppose. That is capitalism. As for the blouse…I never buy in station because you pay way above the cost of creating that good. So I buy for summer when they roll out their winter stuff and buy for winter when they roll out their summer stuff. macy’s got good brands at expensive prices, but during these times you can buy great fashion 50-75% off. I certainly don’t agree with pricing, but I rather the market adjust price than the govt. I don’t need govt to do what I can do myself without having to pay more taxes to have a new govt department that would hope to control prices.

— If the OWS protesters target what they call Wall Street and corporate “greed,” it seems to me it’s because they see that “greed” as their simple answer to a situation that’s gone out of control–a situation that’s chaotic, at best, and a system that seems bent on destruction of the many for the good of the few.
O- Thank you. That is all I am saying. Remember WW2, the Holocaust. Many at first blamed one man, one insane man. Then it was a few men, the Party etc, etc. But closer to the truth is that the many and not the few, enabled that situation to take place. That complicates the answers possible of course, but it prepares us for real change. America had a love affair, they still do, with cars and cheap gas. How many SUV’s did you see in Germany? Compare that with how many scooters and bicycles you saw. Here there is still a stigma against buying small bikes, fuel efficient prius, or cars with less than 100 hp. Here in America people see their cars as an extension of themselves. People will park a Hummer next to a housing project. We have a war on drugs, but only illegal drugs. How about pharmaceuticals? The things that worry me is getting any dental work for me or my family, or any legal troubles. THESE are the ponzi schemes that I see.

— Is this really “honest Capitalism?”
O- The few do not benefit from the destruction of the many. If I lose my job permanently, what I consider economic “destruction” then I cannot produce money for the few to extract. Worse, if I already borrowed money for a house that I cannot pay because it is under water then we both lose. It behooves the bank to keep me in that house in some fashion because they can bring at least some revenue from me in the house and none with me outside of the house and no one else buying, but renting. capitalism is not class warfare and that is the message that the OWS protestors would like to send.

So that is the answer? Of course it would be. If you accept that property is a crime, that the few are robbing the many, then it is logical self-defense to reverse the tables, to rob the few. But of course you would have to abolish all property because there will always be some difference possible. Specially because you can rob capital, you can rob the fish and kill the fisherman (why do banks in Europe exist for?), but until you teach the many how to fish they will either become a horde or starve to death.
What jobs are we talking about? If it is a job that anyone in high school can do then they will not provide a living. But if it is a job that required some kind of certificate or diploma then I think that it will provide a living. If you cannot make a living as a licensed pilort, or IT specialist then you need to redefine what “living” should mean. Get a scooter, take the bus, lose the garage, get a room mate, be flexible…this is not against victims but against self-made victims.

Of course gaping disparities in wealth don’t matter to those on top, or to those who believe the myth that those on top deserve and are entitled to be there. Which is basically moralistic bullshit. In any case, the wealthy few are the beneficiaries of the labors of the rest of us who work, and they have responsibilities in turn. “Robbing the rich” is melodrama,it makes more sense to frame it as collecting a debt, like a bank does when it forecloses, only in the case of taxes, the wealthy remain wealthy, whereas with foreclosures, people suddenly find themselves homeless - but either way, it’s done in service of reciprocity.

Omar, I think you may be over-reaching a bit. Asking for a level playing field isn’t “robbing” anyone. Your word usage gives you away. I have no use for those who lay back expecting someone to support them, but that isn’t the people we’re talking about. There are NO JOBS for a few million people who have the skills, a track record of good employment, supporters of civilization, and all that goes with it. Yes, it pays to be flexible, but there is a limit to that. You have any idea how much it costs to move a couple thousand miles for a family of four? Where does that money come from? Your get-a-scooter comment shows your disdain and reinforces the blame the victim mentality you seem to pursue. Why do I get the feeling that you rooted for the exploiters when you read “Grapes of Wrath”?

Imbalance: I have no problems with the rich making 10 times the Average household wage. They have greater responsibilities and take greater risks. But please tell me the justification of a CEO taking a 6 million a year salary when the janitor is paid 30 grand? Is the imbalance really that difficult to see? The big banks made billions of dollars and paid out millions in bonuses last year. And yet, they are whining that regulations are hurting their profitability. Really? How much profit does it take to pay millions to their top dogs? If you can’t see the complete disparity and the anger of the guy on the bottom who is out there protesting, I feel sorry for you.

This is so over the top that I’m embarrassed for you. Back to the robbing and killing thing? I suppose there are the few on both sides who would actually act in this manner, but the average person out there simply wants a reasonable chance to EARN a reasonable living. The rich seem to not understand or are oblivious to this.

You might as well get used to it. Capital as God has been overplayed and it will be addressed. The lack of any ethical treatment in the pursuit of short-term profit by the wealthy has wakened the sleeping dogs.

That’s only 200 times more though. I’ve worked with people who run companies and with people on the low end of the pay scale and I can tell you 200X doesn’t even come close to the difference in attitude, skill, hard work, responsibility, etc. BUT… whose fault is that? We’ve been systematically divorcing people from any ability they once had to take true pride in their work for decades. I think there’s some kind of vicious cycle going on - a downward spiral separating two classes of people more and more. The gap isn’t unbridgeable, but if we’re not careful it will become so.