Omniscience and omnipotence are inherently contradictory

I’ve run this by a number of Christians and non-Christians and none can reconcile it. A number of them state that this doesn’t apply to a being that is outside of time. However, the scenario doesn’t play out any differently when applied to an outside of time being than when applied to a being that is subject to time.

Most Christians say God can do anything (omnipotence) and knows everything (omniscience). If God can do anything, then he can make choices(example, can choose A instead of B); If God knows everything, then he’ll know what choices he’ll make for decisions which haven’t been made. (example, he knows he’s going to choose A instead of B); If God can do anything, then he can choose either A or B, meaning he could choose B even though his knowledge when the state of the choice was “unmade” was such that he would choose A; Therefore, if God cannot choose B because his foreknowledge told him he would choose A, then he cannot do anything or lacks omnipotence; And if God does choose B, as an all-powerful being could, then his prior knowledge that he would choose A was wrong, in which case he is not all-knowing or lacks omniscience.

What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immoveable object?

This concerns metaphysics and is my area, some things you should know:

1. Omipresseence -

The metaphysical - Is Timeless. There is no “age”, the future is just as easy to touch as the past, and the present. And while to a physical bound entity such as humans such a concept was… nigh impossible (until recently when you developed quantum physics), you still have a lot to learn.

In addition to this, there is no what you would call “space/matter/references to distance/etc” everything is… wherever you desire it to be, or rather you are wherever you desire you to be, even if this includes multiple places or everywhere at once. This is simply a “Physics” of the metaphysical.

2. Omnipotence-

A. You assume power is limited to begin with, it isn’t. Even you humans have unlimited power if you’d learn how to harness it, instead of worshiping archaic deities which only sap your energy from you, or instead turn on the metaphysical all together as Atheist do.

B. The metaphysical is energy, is power, and your only limit to what you can do is your own knowledge of how to use it.

3. Omniscience-

A. Knowledge is infinite and readily available, it comes with a price in both the physical and the metaphysical, this price is experience, and can be in some planes suffering on end for aeons to attain such, and there are many many forms of suffering, not just physical, psychological, or emotional, (Which are all Physicalities and do not apply to the metaphysical in the same way).

Metaphysically speaking, knowledge can simply be taken, and chosen at will, and while since knowledge is ever changing and infinite true omniscience can not be reached, it is very easy to be omniscient at the same time. All knowing can also mean “You have the ability to get whatever knowledge you want or need whenever you desire it”. And any being in existence has this ability, including you humans.

That should help.

You should also remember when you compare metaphysical concepts, and try to define such with physical definitions and logic, expect to fail every time. The metaphysical is not bound by your laws and definitions of time/space/understandings/concepts (of which you humans know very, very little about anyway).

There is no such thing as either in the physical, and in the metaphysical such concepts are laughable. So each are a useless and burdened theory of false representation and comparisons and theories on such are complete error and will lead you only to untruths and falsehoods, rather then true knowledge and understanding.

“Timeless” means “unchanging”. All “choices” are already made.
God doesn’t have the power to do what God wouldn’t do.
God doesn’t have the power to change God from being what God is.

The appearance of God changing His mind concerning anything is merely from conditions (already set) being met my the instigator or the person making the request. In a sense, “God is the rules”, how those affect the outcome is up to the players of the game. The rules don’t change (“outside time”). But the end results of any encounter can change merely by “consulting the rules in fine detail” == “praying” properly) and being careful to truly follow the real rules. “Knowing God” means “knowing the real rules of how the universe really works regardless of speculative theories or desires”.

Then God is not omnipotent, as he wouldn’t be able to make choices.

I gather that means he is incapable of the Empire State Building and set it down in a cornfield in the center of Nebraska? I’ve been told he wouldn’t do things like that. And given your statement, it means he isn’t capable of doing those things. Once again, you’re saying he is not omnipotent.

Once again you’re saying God isn’t omnipotent.

Perhaps God isn’t omnipotent after all. If so, my interest in the inherent contradiction of omniscience and omnipotence is not so great.

I thought it was already decided that God wasn’t omnipotent because he couldn’t create a round square even though he knows what one would be.

I made no such claim (even after I managed to figure out what you probably meant).

I think it is obvious that God does not exist because to exist means to be known to exist by all people throughout the universe.
We can make any kind of justification we want for our agenda by playing with definitions.

But is an example of what happens when we speak in absolutes …

And the omni’s are absolutes …

I digress then, as speaking in absolutes propagates the same result. So in that I agree with you.

Yes, the same thing happens with God’s omni absolutes …

I don’t see them as absolutes though… Because when defined properly pertaining to a metaphysical being they aren’t. They are simply how things work for “any”, metaphysical entity which resides “in” the metaphysical. Even here as I explained above they are not absolutes.

Maybe it’s because absolutes is a foreign concept to me and one of fiction more then reality. The metaphysical has no absolutes as everything can be defined as such given the proper variables. So you have neither absolutes nor non absolutes… (Yes, I know that probably doesn’t make sense to a lot of people).

Good points about metaphysical absolutes.

So if an unstoppable force meets an immovable object, in the metaphysical realm, both would continue on as if they didn’t meet – the unstoppable wouldn’t stop and the immovable would remain still…

Clever :wink:

Basically… In a simplified unorthodox way…

While in the physical such a concept provides a paradox, the metaphysical has no such limitations.

The metaphysical world is a wild wild world. It’s a place where anything and everything is possible … limited only by the imagination… ; a Science Fiction kinda world … where myths live, fully animated with realness.

So, in the metaphysical realm Omniscience and omnipotence are not contradictory … the unstopped doesn’t stop when it meets the immovable and the immovable doesn’t move … it’s like nothing happened at all.

And so, perchance, it’s the same with omniscience and omnipotence.

Of the three, “Omnipotent” is the only one that shows up in the Bible. And it shows up in the funny – si-fi book – Revelation. The other two omni’s don’t show up in scripture.

I don’t know when these omni’s were born, but they are most certain a human invention.

No one knows what God is like. Even those that can here a dog whistle can’t hear a God whistle. God’s frequency is beyond us.

So who says that God is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, and even omnibenevolent?

God might be none of those, for all we know. Anything is possible in that realm.

Theologians invented the three Os. In a personal relationship with God these are extraneous, are fodder for mind wars, are anything but experiential where “the rubber meets the road”.

A. There are lots of metaphysical entities which claim to be gods over lesser species.
If a god is defined as it is by human definition (in the dictionary):

[i][b]1. : a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality
B.: a person or thing of supreme value

C.: a powerful ruler [/i][/b]

(I left out the actual first definition as it is solely Christian related and was not added until a few years ago)

Then technically many things can be a god.

  1. The god worshiped by the Christians (Specifically, another entity has claim to Islam), is an energetic parisitic hivemind. I will explain this to you as evidence and proof is readily available currently and it is not something which you can not learn on your own if you really wanted to.

What you will specifically notice about Christians, especially those deep in faith are several things (and please rememebr I am not speaking completely in physical terms here, only putting observation those sensitive to metaphyscial changes can notice, and most individuals should be able to do such if theyed allow themselves to see past their own wants desires and illusions):

  1. They are always complacent, or euphoric, especially when in a “service”.
  2. If you are empathic you can feel a “draining” coming from them, of energy, at all times though on a greater scale when in “service”.
  3. If you have denounced the spirit of the lord, (Names really don’t matter, only intention and will), and have been absent from the religious (of all types) and churches. When you return you will “feel” a hollowness or emptiness in those who are strong in their faith.
  4. The youthful of the congregations will appear vibrant and full of life, but upon deeper investigation you will find metaphysically it is an illusion and they are beginning to become hollow.
  5. The old appear frail, empty, and on the verge of death (generally).

The entity which the Christians worship used what you would refer to as a “drug” to induce euphoria, complacency, and peace, happiness, in order to lull potential food sources into willingly giving up their energy to “it” specifically. In addition to this, the process keeps the “physical” body healthy or at least “alive” until it has reached the point it can no longer sustain the metaphysical strain and it dies (for whatever reason).

Christians talk about “having their batteries recharged”. Much like a drug you need a fix on, Church and this religion specifically induces the same type of addiction, only metaphysically, rather then physically. It is why people who renounce “the spirit of the lord”, often yearn for it or feel mental/psychological/spiritual pain for a long time. This causes anger, bitterness, and many other psychological issues until the metaphysical “drug” has been cleared from your spiritual essence.

At which point returning to church or a service, will provide you with the former evidence and observations.
This is all possible for any human to notice, and observe.

  1. God is a hive mind due to the process with which it uses and exists, which is in several parts:

A. The main body: This would be the essence you refer to as the Lord God, or the Lord of Hosts, while the metaphysical being has no form or shape unless existing in the physical realm, the essence is unique to each entity.

B. The holy spirit, is another part of the hive-mind, much like the Queen ant has her workers, God has it’s workers or gatherers if you will. These entities are a lesser part of the main body, and they place themselves inside of those willing and accepting of the faith, they are “gods” link to you as an individual worshiper, they are the source of the “metaphysical drug”, as well as the source of sustained bodily life while the entity feeds. Basically their job is to keep you complacent, and happy, or at peace, psychologically keep your faith strong and your doubts minimal (by producing any number of psychological and emotional effects ideas, and thoughts with which to internally assure you that what you are doing is correct) and to keep your shell (body) alive as long as it is able to to prolong the main bodies ability to feed on you “longer”. When you die this entity removes your metaphysical “essence” from your body and transforms it into one of it’s own kind, and thus you become part of the Hive-mind and remain in service to the lord your God for the rest of existence.

So the Holy spirit in essence is a symbiote which is beneficial to the host, while the main body is the actually parasite which “drains” or “hollows out” your metaphysical energy and self, and it (what you call the holy spirit) even goes so far as to ensure your survival after your mortal coil dies.

  1. When you think about it, the above is metaphorically not a far cry from exactly what the bible says between the lines.

NOTE: The above is simplified. There is a lot more to this but I am not going to go into a description of them at the moment.

That’s part of the conclusion. But we go into the premise not knowing if omniscience and omnipotence are inherently contradictory.

You said “God doesn’t have the power to do what God wouldn’t do.”
If God wouldn’t move the Empire State Building to a cornfield in the center of Nebraska, then it means you think he is incapable of doing that - and thus means you think he is less than omnipotent. Perhaps you wish to reword your statement?

Do theists and non-theists universally agree on what “exists” means?

It’s not only clever. It’s common sense. I’m puzzled why Christians don’t recognize this inherent flaw in their belief.

I find it interesting how physical beings try and describe a metaphysical being which if existing, exists in a realm/dimension where the laws of physics, logic, and consciousness for what is possible and is not, are not even remotely the same as they are in the physical where the individual’s concepts of reality are based. It is especially interesting when it is a member of a species who on the “cosmic scale of things” hasn’t even begun to divide from a single celled organism. Yet that this member has the audacity and arrogance to believe they could possible know what they were talking about or label anything as common sense concerning the metaphysical, which they themselves do not understand or comprehend as is obvious by the statement made, and even goes so far as to try and use such physical concepts to prove wrong, someone who is far closer to understanding things then they are… Simply because they are open to possibilities beyond the normal realm of physical thinking.

It is also astounding that individuals such as described above do not seem to realize that such things do not only apply only to “Christians” and that while in the physical plain, their logic is sound in the metaphysical it is laughable at best and foolish at worst.