On Problem Solving and Creative Thinking

[Daktoria]

I wasn’t sure if this should go in society or here, but take your pick. Either one could work really.

My concern here is that bullying leads to a self-fulfilling prophecy of social alienation because bullying victims have to engage in problem solving in order to defend themselves. Otherwise, they get walked all over by bullies who brutally assert their authority (or at least they’re forced to assume the risk of it).

This encourages victims to become overanalyzing, argumentative, and basically annoying because they’re no fun to be around. The destruction of security in their environments inhibits the opportunity to become charismatic because there’s no reliability for creative thinking. Instead, their creative thinking is sabotaged, mocked for being weird, and destroyed just for fun whether it’s the thing itself that goes boom or seeing the creative thinker go boom.

In the future, the victims lack the creativity required to have fun things to do, symbolize words where they don’t belong just to fool around, nor understand how appearances can be deceiving such that they might not understand how they appear differently outside than they actually exists inside. This can lead to social alienation where people with alternative understandings of expressions (whether verbal or physical) aren’t thought about creatively, but problematically instead.

In turn, it’s even possible that the victim gets stuck with the bully, or perhaps even falls behind the bully, because the victim can’t escape. It can even get so bad that people accuse the victim of being constantly negative, and the bully oneself can even sympathize with those accusers in order to not be blamed. Bullies can even blame the victim in order to support accusers who find victims too difficult to deal with, especially since they’re boring. Victims can even be turned away from one another because they find each other boring, and it can even get so bad that they even blame each other. Heck, if a bully is really manipulative, a bully can alienate multiple victims and turn them against each other.

[Helandhighwater]

Bullies only tend to be defeated by people acting against them, just as they do in real life. This whole ignore the troll thing is a failed experiment that has only lead them to become stronger. I would say attack them report them, and hold your head up high above the sand, actually make it hard for them to do what they do. Unfortunately this is a theory that is defeated by people who live on any sphere of information, who will just tell you not to feed them, ignore, let’s hide and run, run away, run and hide, hide I am weak I Am afraid! just hide! it is the only way to help you against people.

It sickens me that trolls and bullies are now the most powerful force on the web, one that has been basically given free reign to attack anyone by people who will stick their head in the sand and hide given any opportunity… Solve, creative, thinking, just move in on them like an army and face them like a person who is not a coward. A bully is weak when faced with an army of strength they will fail. Simple strategy take them on, use the same game they do, attack in numbers, don’t act as an apologist for those, act as a champion for people who do have some nerve, you don’t even need to break forum rules, you just need to have guts. Attack them with logic and reason, get a whole slew of people on board to question and without emotion their reason. The only way you can beat anything is to take it on directly, hide in fear and all you will do is leave them to prosper. I am so disappointed with this whole internet thing where we all just cower in fear. Let’s try something new, let’s use the same tactics any one who has an army does and trolls and bullies do now. Let’s face them man to man, and make it not worth their while. Couldn’t hurt, could it? The other way has failed so badly that it’s embarrassing to even think anyone condoned it in the first place.

I chose not to choose defeat in the face of these morons. Sadly I am alone, let’s all just slowly take the morons on over time and do them in with something other than weak cowardly whining.

I do realise this has nothing to do with your post. I just thought I’d say something, about tards. It needs to be said though.

I have seen it before though people who get bullied act badly and so are chastised instead of the bullies, it’s a weakness of people, they don’t attack the root they attack the symptoms. Herding is safe, bullies herd, it’s easier to join the herd then.

Watch this: Bart the General:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbpsFCOGK3I[/youtube]

That’s how you deal with retards. The Greeks knew it now you know it.

[Moreno]

@Daktoria

My concern here is that bullying leads to a self-fulfilling prophecy of social alienation because bullying victims have to engage in problem solving in order to defend themselves. Otherwise, they get walked all over by bullies who brutally assert their authority (or at least they’re forced to assume the risk of it).

IOW the alienating themselves is a solution to the problem of the bully?

This encourages victims to become overanalyzing, argumentative, and basically annoying because they’re no fun to be around. The destruction of security in their environments inhibits the opportunity to become charismatic because there’s no reliability for creative thinking.

I couldn’t really get this part. Is it that because the victims have to problem solve they become creative - and indirect, it seems - and this is not only alienating, but makes them creative, which is also a quality that gets you shunned.

I find this all interesting, but I am not sure my interpretations are correct.

Instead, their creative thinking is sabotaged, mocked for being weird, and destroyed just for fun whether it’s the thing itself that goes boom or seeing the creative thinker go boom.

In the future, the victims lacks the creativity required to have fun things to do,

Here the victims are nto creative, so I get confused.

symbolize words where they don’t belong just to fool around, and doesn’t understand how appearances can be deceiving such that one might not understand how one appears differently outside than one actually exists inside. This can lead to social alienation where people with alternative understandings of expressions (whether verbal or physical) aren’t thought about creatively, but instead, problematically.

Those who get that there is surface and potentially another or realer self that his hidden are seen as different and a problem?

In turn, it’s even possible that the victim gets stuck with the bully, or perhaps even falls behind the bully, because the victim can’t escape. It can even get so bad that people accuse the victim of being constantly negative, and the bully oneself can even sympathize with those accusers in order to not be blamed. Bullies can even blame the victim in order to support accusers who find victims too difficult to deal with, especially since they’re boring. Victims can even be turned away from one another because they find each other boring, and it can even get so bad that they even blame each other. Heck, if a bully is really manipulative, a bully can alienate multiple victims and turn them against each other.

I’ve seen these patterns.

[Orbie]

The victim-bully system is an accepted, reified way of social interaction. It is almost a cultural style. All the to do and the complaining of victims to their moms and dads, brings on harrowing expletives and reminders by parents on how the victim is to face the music,or suffer the consequences of becoming an apprehended nerd.

Bullies and victims are seen as predictable duos in any segment of society, and exercise a psychological tendency of a repressed sado/masochism. The power plays inherent on this type of relationship, is the primal moving force, and the bully’s ego being tied to exercising dominance and power over the victim can become obvious on closer examination.

 In addition it is usually the rule and not the exception, that bullies have been victimized at some point, so it may be a vicious, unrealized cycle.

[Daktoria]

@Helandhighwater

Bullies only tend to be defeated by people acting against them, just as they do in real life. This whole ignore the troll thing is a failed experiment that has only lead them to become stronger. I would say attack them report them, and hold your head up high above the sand, actually make it hard for them to do what they do. Unfortunately this is a theory that is defeated by people who live on any sphere of information, who will just tell you not to feed them, ignore, let’s hide and run, run away, run and hide, hide I am weak I Am afraid! just hide! it is the only way to help you against people.

It sickens me that trolls and bullies are now the most powerful force on the web, one that has been basically given free reign to attack anyone by people who will stick their head in the sand and hide given any opportunity… Solve, creative, thinking, just move in on them like an army and face them like a person who is not a coward. A bully is weak when faced with an army of strength they will fail. Simple strategy take them on, use the same game they do, attack in numbers, don’t act as an apologist for those, act as a champion for people who do have some nerve, you don’t even need to break forum rules, you just need to have guts. Attack them with logic and reason, get a whole slew of people on board to question and without emotion their reason. The only way you can beat anything is to take it on directly, hide in fear and all you will do is leave them to prosper. I am so disappointed with this whole internet thing where we all just cower in fear. Let’s try something new, let’s use the same tactics any one who has an army does and trolls and bullies do now. Let’s face them man to man, and make it not worth their while. Couldn’t hurt, could it? The other way has failed so badly that it’s embarrassing to even think anyone condoned it in the first place.

To be clear, I wasn’t talking about online trolls, but I guess they apply as well.

Anyway, I agree that the problem is a lack of fraternity, but the problem then becomes bullies fraternizing among themselves and blaming the fraternal victims to be bullies. What you said about emotion is what I said about victims being blamed by fellow victims as well as bullies aligning with accusers.

I don’t know if confrontation is exactly the right approach, but it’s close. The thing is bullies like how victims spend time on them to get them fixed. This is what I said about getting stuck or falling behind. They violate you behind the excuse of circular reasoning. If you don’t prove them wrong (even though you shouldn’t have to), then they simply exist and impose their will upon you.

I chose not to choose defeat in the face of these morons. Sadly I am alone, let’s all just slowly take the morons on over time and do them in with something other than weak cowardly whining.

I do realise this has nothing to do with your post. I just thought I’d say something, about tards. It needs to be said though.

I have seen it before though people who get bullied act badly and so are chastised instead of the bullies, it’s a weakness of people, they don’t attack the root they attack the symptoms. Herding is safe, bullies herd, it’s easier to join the herd then.

Right. Sometimes, the problem is people refuse to form fraternities. Other times, the fraternities people form are twisted against themselves.

[Daktoria]

@Moreno

IOW the alienating themselves is a solution to the problem of the bully?

No. People engage in problem solving to defend themselves, not alienate themselves.

I couldn’t really get this part. Is it that because the victims have to problem solve they become creative - and indirect, it seems - and this is not only alienating, but makes them creative, which is also a quality that gets you shunned.

I find this all interesting, but I am not sure my interpretations are correct.

No. It’s because their attention spans are saturated by problem solving that their attention spans are unavailable for creative thinking.

Here the victims are nto creative, so I get confused.

Right. Their creative thinking is sabotaged.

[Daktoria]

@obe

The victim-bully system is an accepted, reified way of social interaction. It is almost a cultural style. All the to do and the complaining of victims to their moms and dads, brings on harrowing expletives and reminders by parents on how the victim is to face the music,or suffer the consequences of becoming an apprehended nerd.

Bullies and victims are seen as predictable duos in any segment of society, and exercise a psychological tendency of a repressed sado/masochism. The power plays inherent on this type of relationship, is the primal moving force, and the bully’s ego being tied to exercising dominance and power over the victim can become obvious on closer examination.

In addition it is usually the rule and not the exception, that bullies have been victimized at some point, so it may be a vicious, unrealized cycle.

Eh… I mean I’ll agree that bullies are sadistic, but victims are not necessarily masochistic. They can just be ordinary neutral independents who get victimized because someone else wants to do it.

I don’t know if I’d say bullies have been necessarily victimized either. Some just have nasty attitudes by default.

[Orbie]

@Daktoria

@obe

The victim-bully system is an accepted, reified way of social interaction. It is almost a cultural style. All the to do and the complaining of victims to their moms and dads, brings on harrowing expletives and reminders by parents on how the victim is to face the music,or suffer the consequences of becoming an apprehended nerd.

Bullies and victims are seen as predictable duos in any segment of society, and exercise a psychological tendency of a repressed sado/masochism. The power plays inherent on this type of relationship, is the primal moving force, and the bully’s ego being tied to exercising dominance and power over the victim can become obvious on closer examination.

In addition it is usually the rule and not the exception, that bullies have been victimized at some point, so it may be a vicious, unrealized cycle.

Eh… I mean I’ll agree that bullies are sadistic, but victims are not necessarily masochistic. They can just be ordinary neutral independents who get victimized because someone else wants to do it.

I don’t know if I’d say bullies have been necessarily victimized either. Some just have nasty attitudes by default.

 Let's say you are a victim.  That is a role You have gotten Yourself into.  You become known as the type that's easy pickin's.  Other bullies will pick up on it, and if they have a bad hair day, they are going to be of use to them, you will be targeted as an easy mark.  Why? So that all that hostile energy can be discharged.

 Now one stuck with such a label, if there is no getting around it, will tend to get to the point of having to live with it, with consequential progression of coping through defenses.

 Some of these defenses will develop into inversions, such as wrapping it around the brain as not only an acceptable, but a desired feeling state.

 This is why some victims will develop feelings not only of respect, gratitude(for withholding punishment) but a certain fondness toward their punishers.

 This type of inversion is very common, has an existential survival value, and becomes a masochistic trait to accommodate the bullie's sadism.  It may be open to awareness, or not.

[Moreno]

@Daktoria

No. People engage in problem solving to defend themselves, not alienate themselves.

I did get that part. There were places where the language seemed ambigious. Here I was wondering if the very fact of becoming a creative problem solver alienated them and/or made them different. Not that this was their intent, but that it was one of the outcomes.

No. It’s because their attention spans are saturated by problem solving that their attention spans are unavailable for creative thinking.

OK, though I Think the ongoing problem solving leads to certain kinds of creativity and skills. One simple example is that they may become very good readers of other people’s emotional states and from there are creative at deflecting, distracting, avoiding, controlling and sadly appeasing.

Right. Their creative thinking is sabotaged.

Though I tend to find victims more creative than bullies. I don’t mean this simply in the way I mention above - in direct relation to the bully - but also especially in art, Writing, etc.

Bullying patterns do seem to help people get famous, with or without skills, including creative ones.

But for me the victim is at a loss during the intense periods of victimhood from participating normally socially. They have less energy and also tend to bring a lot of stress to other relations.

[Daktoria]

@obe

Let’s say you are a victim. That is a role You have gotten Yourself into. You become known as the type that’s easy pickin’s. Other bullies will pick up on it, and if they have a bad hair day, they are going to be of use to them, you will be targeted as an easy mark. Why? So that all that hostile energy can be discharged.

That already doesn’t make sense. People don’t get themselves into being victims. They’re picked on in the first place.

Yes, there are reputations, but people don’t build their own reputations. Reputations are built from how others perceive someone.

Now one stuck with such a label, if there is no getting around it, will tend to get to the point of having to live with it, with consequential progression of coping through defenses.

Some of these defenses will develop into inversions, such as wrapping it around the brain as not only an acceptable, but a desired feeling state.

This is why some victims will develop feelings not only of respect, gratitude(for withholding punishment) but a certain fondness toward their punishers.

This might happen for some, but it doesn’t happen for all.

This type of inversion is very common, has an existential survival value, and becomes a masochistic trait to accommodate the bullie’s sadism. It may be open to awareness, or not.

Not really. That leads to bullying getting worse because bullies take the excuse that victims were asking for it.

[Daktoria]

@Moreno

@Daktoria

No. People engage in problem solving to defend themselves, not alienate themselves.

I did get that part. There were places where the language seemed ambigious. Here I was wondering if the very fact of becoming a creative problem solver alienated them and/or made them different. Not that this was their intent, but that it was one of the outcomes.

No. It’s because their attention spans are saturated by problem solving that their attention spans are unavailable for creative thinking.

OK, though I Think the ongoing problem solving leads to certain kinds of creativity and skills. One simple example is that they may become very good readers of other people’s emotional states and from there are creative at deflecting, distracting, avoiding, controlling and sadly appeasing.

Right. Their creative thinking is sabotaged.

Though I tend to find victims more creative than bullies. I don’t mean this simply in the way I mention above - in direct relation to the bully - but also especially in art, Writing, etc.

Bullying patterns do seem to help people get famous, with or without skills, including creative ones.

But for me the victim is at a loss during the intense periods of victimhood from participating normally socially. They have less energy and also tend to bring a lot of stress to other relations.

I’m not sure why you’re confusing creative thinking and problem solving, but bullies will take the experience gained from being “very good readers of other people’s emotional states and from there are creative at deflecting, distracting, avoiding, controlling and sadly appeasing” as an excuse to claim they’re provoked. On the other hand, if you claim a bully provoked you, they’ll claim you’re impractical.

To be clear, I’m talking about the creative thinking required to elevate oneself beyond this in cultivating a sophisticated culture so you’re fun to be around. When you’re always problem solving a defense, people get bored around you because there’s nothing created to defend.

[Stuart]

Fun to be around and creative, I have just never seen it.

[Moreno]

@Daktoria

I’m not sure why you’re confusing creative thinking and problem solving, but bullies will take the experience gained from being “very good readers of other people’s emotional states and from there are creative at deflecting, distracting, avoiding, controlling and sadly appeasing” as an excuse to claim they’re provoked. On the other hand, if you claim a bully provoked you, they’ll claim you’re impractical.

If you can’t fight a bully, then you have to be creative in avoiding them and the conflict. It’s not a juicy get your name in the Encyclopedia creativity, but it is creativity nonenless. And what I meant about Reading people, is that you can tell there will be a problem Before it arises. You know when to give a wide swath, you know when to be extra obsequious. Etc.

To be clear, I’m talking about the creative thinking required to elevate oneself beyond this in cultivating a sophisticated culture so you’re fun to be around. When you’re always problem solving a defense, people get bored around you because there’s nothing created to defend.

If the bullying utterly isolates you, sure, then it is a hard spot to move your way out of. I suppose I am working from my limited experience where there were a number of sometimes bullied, and a number of them were pretty damn interesting, if I may say so myself. But these were not people who were systematically bullied. Systematic, near constant bullying, that is a different can of beans. I Believe I have encountered people who suffered that, and I Think they also managed to be interesting, certainly more so than the bullies or the ‘cool’ people. Once the system fails to protect you, you realize that what is presented and good and true, may not be. I Think this in itself peels back the veil and give you a different set of insights into society, humans, etc.

I can imagine that the pattern you are talking about happens, it just doesn’t seem to me that it is inevitable that one cannot be creative there.