Pantheopsychic Comics #3 Conclusion Part Two entitled: If So Be The Spirit Of God Dwells In You offers a Pantheopsychic explanation of what is meant by “The Spirit of God” or “The Spirit of Christ” and concludes it is not supernatural ghostly substance, but something very obvious, given the nature of our own being.
You can read it here:
Enjoy,
Phenomenal Graffiti
Seriously epic bro. Glad to see you back here 
I really like your interpretations, but the conclusion seems off. How is it that Christ “sinned our sins for us” before we were born so that now we can only “sin what Christ already sinned”? This makes sense logically within your overall thesis of isomorphism, but on its own doesn’t make sense because Christ himself was sinless. Christ was a pure incarnation of God as holiness. It would have been impossible for him to sin, or at least we can say that by virtue of what he was, he never sinned.
Yes Christ gave himself for us, took on the weight of our sins and went to hell with that weight upon him. That makes sense in light of the fact Christ himself was sinless, yet he was punished anyway because of his choice to take responsibility and ownership of all the sins of humanity. This could only be possible metaphysically, spiritually and not because Christ actually sinned himself. More like… a debt was transferred to him, which he accepted even though he himself did not owe that debt, and by consequence of accepting that weight of sin he went into hell (separation from God) for a long enough time as to have that sin purged from him, or for as long as God wished him to be there. Most likely in hell time stops, so for Christ himself he could have been in hell for an eternity. But Christ himself was pure, which I assume would mean the process of purging “his” sins (the baggage of the world’s sin he choose to take responsibility for) would be much quicker compared to how long it would take any normal human to purge his or her sins in hell.
Equating sin with suffering is interesting, but I think slightly inaccurate. Suffering and sin are certainly related but are not the same. Sin can cause suffering, perhaps sin necessarily causes suffering, and suffering can cause us to sin or it can cause us to be purified (as Christ said we should accept our suffering and hold it up to God as our sacrifice and love for him, “take up your own cross and carry it”). One part of modern Christianity I think is often missing is the potentially redemptive quality of suffering, if we choose to accept it and hold it up before God as our offering to him. God “makes us suffer” (or by maybe the most generous reading, allows us to suffer) being that he created all this and put us here in full knowledge of the fact that we would suffer as a consequence, free will notwithstanding, so, logically speaking, even the worst possible suffering cannot be “all bad”.
HumAnIze:
Thanks for your response.
When referring to Christ committing all our sins for us before we were born, in later issue segments of Pantheopsychic Comics (most notably the upcoming issue segment Pantheopsychic Comics #3 Conclusion Part Three, Part Two entitled: The Bizarre Concept of Ersatz-Sin!), I refer to these pre-birth sins as “ersatz-sins” or phenomena that is identical to human sins, but is not actually sin qua sin but Christ’s suffering, i.e. being forced by Existence to, in a non-lucid dream while in a second, “external” dream of dying on a Cross, experiences being certain later-existing humans and “committing” these person’s “sins” for them. I usually state Christ “sinned every sin a person shall commit from birth to death” without going into the detail of placing apostrophe marks around every mention of ‘sin’ as it is tedious to do so and once one hears of the concept of “ersatz sin” or “quasi-sin” when it comes to Christ, one can mentally, in the spirit of logical non-contradiction, mentally apply “quasi-sin” to the mention of ‘sin’ when it comes to Christ. And by extension, the Undamned, as these are humans that can only replicate the “quasi-sins” of Christ in the Sacrificial Dream. I totally understand your point: but in Pantheopsychic theology Christ remains sinless as He only “quasi-sins”, and does so only in the dream-identity of another person, only does so in a dream, and simply exists (temporarily) this way through no choice of His own.
We all have our interpretations and takes on Hell and Christ’s role there, but in Pantheopsychic Theology the only “Hell” Christ entered was the Sacrificial Dream. I’ve come to the conclusion that when it comes to concepts that have nothing to do with the evidence given “now” by the senses, everyone is potentially “right” or “wrong”, as there is no point in citing someone’s extra-sensory imagination as incorrect and one’s correct, as both ideas exist outside our consciousness. One can only believe in this extra-sensory imagination and have faith it objectively exists outside anyone’s consciousness, while saving space out of courtesy for any other idea that is at least logically possible (though one has no obligation to do the latter).
It’s not that I equate suffering with sin, and I apologize if it seems I have done so. The Sacrificial Dream encompasses all suffering, including “karmic” as well as “sin” (“quasi-sin”), and they are exclusive.
Again, thank you for your reading and your thought-provoking response.
Phenomenal Graffiti
This makes sense. Christ knew us before we were born, he knew every person perfectly just as God it omniscient and omnipresent. God did give us free will and yet God himself, being outside of time, already knows exactly what we will choose to do with our free will. And he made this universe when he could have made it differently, which means or at least seems to imply that this universe is indeed the best-possible at least from the perspective of God and what he considers valuable/important (which isn’t necessarily what we want or think of as valuable/important).
Christ, in being with God and in being God, in being present since the beginning as the Word, did already “sin our sins” because Christ has access to this part of God’s overall plan. Christ may not have access to some specifics about the end times, yet even that is poetic and meaningful when you consider what it takes to sustain love and the impact absolute evil and horror can have on it. Maybe God the Father simply spares Christ from this, until the time is right. Anyway, Christ does have access to the part of God’s omniscient omnipresence that sees/knows/experiences all humans at all times, inside and out, and probably comprehends this in its entirety in what would be considered the blink of an eye by our regular human concept of time. So I agree with you, Christ already “knew and lived” (in a dream-sense) our lives. The good is no problem, even the mundane is no problem since for God himself the most boring mundane things to us are probably incredibly good, but the sinful parts are problematic. Because God/Christ are pure, holy, perfect. Sinless. Evil cannot exist in their presence. Therefore Christ would need to cleanse that. But he could only cleanse it after fully understanding/living it, secondarily through the dream-like or spiritual experience of completely knowing us before we even existed. Unless I’m totally misunderstanding something.
Yes, very well said. If only more people understood this. I’ve rarely seen even a philosopher who understood this. Usually we take our personal idea and elevate it into an absolute truth or something to be defended at all costs, associated it with our ego, when in fact the idea itself if you were to examine it objectively and logically is a speculation beyond proving at this point. Oh well. I suppose this child-like over-zealousness is something about humanity we can learn to appreciate in an aesthetic sense, beyond truth but beautiful nonetheless.
Yes I understand your points now, thanks for the clarifications. Hope you keep up the amazing work =D> =D> =D>
HumAnIze wrote,
You used the phrase " sin our sins". You are not literally saying this, right, sense Christ was not capable of 'sinning" being that He is the Son of God. A better way of putting this would be from…
1 Peter 2:24
“He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed". In other words, He did not sin, he took our sins upon Himself, He took the blame and responsibility by suffering and dying on the cross.
By access, you mean that Christ was a part of God, the Father’s, plan - no more nor less than He Himself.
Access is kind of a strange word to use in this regard, but maybe I am wrong.
Why wouldn’t He? Christ is God, equal to God.
So the Father is withholding information from Him? Christ said in John 10:30 that "I and My Father are one”.
.
What time are you speaking about - The Second Coming?
I do not think that it is an easy thing trying to understand The Holy Trinity.
As Christ said, He and the Father are One. As such, I do not think that it is a question of access. I have access to ILP. All I have to do is sign in and I have access. It is just not the same.
God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are One complete, equal and undivided God. There is no question of having access. Maybe a better word for what you are trying to say is SHARE.
They share the same attributes and experiences at the same time…total awareness of One Another at the same time…if you can even use that terminology - at the same time.
I think that in God’s time there would not be even any blink of an eye. There would not even be an “in God’s time”. Eternity is out of time. We cannot even begin to grasp what that means.
But a dream is not real so you seem to be saying that Christ actually did not have an experience of it.
But are you speaking of when Christ walked the Earth both human and divine?
HumAnIze:
Two things are key:
God’s omnscient foreknowledge of all events
The "just so " shape of Existence
Evil did not in principle necessarily exist, it simply autonomously existed, as one of the things that exist for no other reason than out of everything that could or might have existed in lieu of evil, evil was one of the things that exist.
If God (and Christ being God) is omniscient, in order for God to be omniscient in a perfectly symmetrical reality in which the only things that exist and can exist are persons and their experiences, God knows of the existence of every person that shall and can exist prior to each person’s experiences, and the existence of every sin that shall be committed by every person that shall commit it. Omniscience also means that in order for God to have perfect, infallible knowledge of the future, the external world outside God’s mind must be forced to replicate, to the most perfect degree, that which God envisioned or imagined.
In regard to sin.
Sin is defined as “the transgression of the Law”. It is usually believed that sin or “transgression of the Law” is only physical or only occurs if one physically acted out in a way God considers “transgression of the Law”, but Jesus nips that in the bud in Mark 7:21-23 with His statement that sin can also be purely mental and psychological even if it invisibly remains hidden as it is not expressed in outward behavior.
God defines what is sin. Humans do not. Given this, even if Christ mimics, to the letter, what in a human God considers sin, God can (and does) have the option to observe the same thing in Christ and determine it is not sin. This is what powers Pantheopsychic theology in regard to Christ’s sacrifice: that Christ can “sin” as a future human will, with the “sin” not considered by God (who is the only authority that declares whether x or y is sin) to be sin qua sin given it is in the mind of Christ.
A. In the Sacrificial Dream Christ “sins” the “sins” of the Undamned in the sense that He dreams of Himself in the form and consciousness of the saved person, and
B. He never commits the “sin” in His indigenous form or consciousness, but in the shape of the form and consciousness of another.
Thus Christ remains, throughout, both behaviorally and apparitionally sinless.
By right of the Pantheopsychic saved being thrown into existence being unable to do anything but mimic in their “sins” the “sins” of Christ in the Sacrificial Dream, they are sinless themselves as they do nothing but mimic Christ’s “sins” and have no original “sin” of themselves. As the verse states:
Blessed is the man
whose sins are covered,
whose sins are forgiven.
Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord
will never count
against Him.
-Romans 4:8
Thanks for your response and critical thinking!
PG
Arcturus Descending:
That’s one way of looking at it, but it does not logically “jibe”. Christ took our sins upon Himself, which means literally…the sins themselves. It does not translate to “taking the blame or responsibiity for sins” upon Himself, but the literal sins. Given, even if one believes in the usual belief in regard to time Christ was a human crucified 2000 plus years ago or the Pantheopsychic “reboot” wherein Christ was crucified in His mind in a dream eons before the first human, unless one wants to believe in time-traveling sin wherein sins committed by people before Christ’s crucified travelled into the future to land within His body as He died upon the cross or the sins of people living after the crucifixion (such as, say, the year 2023) time-travelled to the past to land inside Christ’s body (and how does the sin of a person reside in a physical body?)…it remains more logical that our sins (actually “sins” if they are in Christ) resided in Christ’s mind, as even if Christ took only the responsibility for a sin committed by someone born thousands of years after His crucifixion, He would have to envision what it is He is taking responsibility for.
So either way, Christ had to bear who committed the sin before He was born as a human and crucified or years after His crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension (according to common Christian belief) or each sin and who will commit it eons before the existence of the first human being (Pantheopsychic Theology), He had to have an image, if not the actual first-person experience of, each human who will be saved as Christ must have envisioned knowledge of who the person is and what they do/think/ and feel prior to the person’s existence (according to Pantheopsychic Theology).
Eh, one can rigidly define experience by saying one only experiences something if one experiences it awake, with the senses. But it follows we experience things in dreams, thus dreaming counts, imo, as actual experience. And really, in order for Christ to even know of our sins and who it is that did the sinning, as stated before in terms of sinners (non-Pantheopsychically) existing before and after the crucifixion, Christ would need to imagine or have a mental image of a sinner that did not yet exist/no longer humanly or biologically existed in either temporal direction, so having a mental image is itself the experience of doing so, with dreaming of being the person committing the sin (actually “sin”) being a more intimate manner which more closely binds God and man in the same circle of shared fate than the more standoffish manner of non-Pantheopsychic theology.
PG