Pascals Lilith

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
1

I’ve been playing the role of Alchemist for some time now. My decision to believe in God(s) was, in retrospect, the same as Pascals. There was more statistical advantage (I figured instinctively) to free running belief than to methodical disbelief.

In retrospect things have gotten out of hand, for which I am grateful. I am glad that no God has managed to catch me in its singular law. I have tried, I’ve tried to submit my will to a higher reason.

I’ve tried to seek out The God and there is no objection in my mind against a metapersonal, affective influence can become so structurally positive that the human body is lifted from its lunar, watery, common denominator psyche into a more lighthearted and lightfooted state that gives courage and auspiciousness. But I find that God is complex - once he gives you power, he “demands” (causes) a certain development, and it is not quite clear to me what the meaning is of it all.

People believe in god. I suppose, that is the basic, real thing to account with, as a social or political thinker at least. You can’t communicate with the world without the logos of belief. Not even in the west. It is a common dependency. It’s a bit like money - indebting to be granted happiness.

Nietzsche digs his way out of this hole. Instead of debt, real suffering, instead of being granted happiness, realizing it by being ruthlessly honest. But “real people” don’t think like Nietzsche, and Nietzsche certainly didn’t exist like the beings in his visions. What it means to say “Superman” or “Beyondman” - to no longer be dependent on a God to be justified in bliss - and this does indeed mean at first glance that there is no longer any fairness in the world, and that some are not the beneficiaries of any bliss at all. But this is misunderstanding the power of context.

After some moments of considering fairness appears no longer in the power as it is experienced in isolation against extremes, but in the “place in the pyramid” that relates to what is actually in ones hands. In this way there is always room to be and to grow.

God sits on the throne without knowing of the secrets of the base. His happily bestowing bliss is complete because he is ignorant of the cruel bliss of the deprived. Jesus was his way of relating to that class without really relating to it. Magdalene would be “the truth about what happened there”, the truth that God couldn’t face, let alone have published.

Lilith is at this point the most powerful God I’ve met - too powerful and terrible to really trust with anything besides deliberate transgression of ‘divine’ law. The problem is that Jesus does exist (as a God, probably not as a real human) and that this is not enough.

2

I’m sorry that I don’t understand most of your references. Though, I wish to concern myself with a small part of your post:

You are obviously too intelligent, old enough and familiar with divergent philosophical views - seven years on ilp - to still believe - now at this moment, or in past months - in goD in a way to make you light hearted without having already considered the complexities associated with gracE. I believe you must have believed in Him for a while without solving Calvin’s riddle, then you must have become disillusioned for a while. And now, maybe years later, you are - or recently were - back to a belief in Him, but now as hiM. Though, I wonder if this is possible, to regain the light-heartiness of a belief in hiM while having full awareness of the insolvability of hiS many hypocrisies. And yet or expectedly - I don’t know which - you ask questions like this:

I don’t know the “meaning”, but I can only guess that hiS demands will have the effect on you that demands usually have on people.

Now Lilith - for whom I admittedly had to look up - transgresses divinE law or allows such, so she hardly seems to be the one making the demands. But, why is it not enough for jesuS to exist - as a god anyway - when it seems hiS demanding existence is already too much?

(Please ignore this post if so inclined.)

3

A good question:

Jesus is one of those Gods who doesn’t really demand anything. Not anything that I wasn’t already doing, anyway - love my fellow man, forgive. Maybe that’s why he is not enough. Maybe I’d need to be more naturally “evil” for God to be enough and to feel the demands justified by a gain in my morality, i.e. “happiness” or “self-knowledge”.

The problem is that, since discovering that Gods are real at least in some neural-electrical, potentiating way, I can not simply drop the whole concept. Not because of a need, but because of an honesty. Paradoxically, I have to believe in or simply consider the existence of God(s) because it would be dishonest to do otherwise.

One time I had a dream, where I had laboriously ascended to Heaven, only to find an enraged God there, who kicked me out, back to Earth and threw a golden crown after me. “Stay there and wear your crown” was all he had to offer. I liked the message, but I didn’t know how to comply.

4

I doubt you show this love and forgiveness more than anyone else. If so, it seems you have remained naïve in regards to your role on earth.

Self-knowledge must come before evil - it isn’t a quality that increases with god, happiness or “morality”.

So know your role - and then keep it up - and then I suppose you will become evil and “need” god. But, then let’s not discount willful ignorance as an attribute of “evil”.

Existentially speaking, I understand.

So innocuous jesus, and mischievous Lilith are not who is demanding to you; existentially - in the reality for which you exist and I won’t deny. Good god, in his all knowing rage, is the demanding one, and he wants you to remain as you are, like he knows how to remain as he is.

5

I don’t want to hear about Jesus. Enough already. I’d like to hear about Lilith.

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According to “Encyclopedia Judaica”, in Jewish myhology, Lilith was Adam’s first wife. She was insulted by the missionary sexual position–wanted to be on top–started Women’s lib!

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Jakob says in his OP :

“Lilith is at this point the most powerful God I’ve met …”

He must like women on top … must be a powerful God to him …

And wasn’t Lilith’s Women’s Lib fixed by Adam’s Rib?

Lilith.JPGLilith with Screech Owls (Isaiah 34:14)

8

I don’t actually. But Lilith “rapes men in their sleep”.
Gods that affect you when you’re unconscious are going to be powerful.

That was Eve. Eve is inferior inferior to Adam as she’s a mere part of him, Lilith might have been in the Garden before Adam. Metaphorically. She operates in the dark, which is what makes her so powerful, at least capable of having an effect.

I see our society since Bernays as heavily Lilithian.
There’s a lot of guys who freak out at the mere notion of a female power. But they’re no less subjected to it than I am. You can’t hope to control something if you deny it’s existence. It’s not always a matter of whether I like a power or not.

9

But you’ve met this powerful God Lilith? Have you been raped by her, while sleeping? Was she a good lay?

10

Well, sure. So have you.
There isn’t really any getting away from Gods. They’re like gravity - principles, “first causes”. But of very many different things.

How would I remember that?

11

Maybe you don’t dream like me. I would remember being raped by Lilith in my sleep.

And if you can’t remember it, how do you know you met Lilith?

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Some people don’t even remember being raped while they were awake. Lilith is usually repressed to a great degree.

Raping men in their sleep isn’t all she ever does.

Anyway I feel I should probably remind you that what is being said about Gods is necessarily metaphor.

13

Oh! Never mind then. Carry on …

14

This must be analyzed. It is obvious he is portraying goD mad that he was acting as a god on earth, who therefore threw him back to earth so that he could continue his vain, and benign life as a pretend god. There is no doubt that is the portrayal, almost anyone who’s spoken English for more than few years would understand that is what it means. I almost omitted the “almost” in the previous sentence, but I realized there is always the possibility that Jakob doesn’t know what his portrayal looks like to everyone else.

Then, everyone understands what the thoughts of that person banished back to earth would be. Maybe some unexpected anger at goD’s disapproval, or maybe he would have anticipated god’s reaction and is planning is next defiant march to heaven, as a way of mocking or challenging hiM. Assuming the former, then he may try to develop more power than god (easy enough to do when speaking of fiction) or he may “change is ways” and stop being so “wicked”.

But, Jakob said he liked the message, as if he wasn’t expecting it, but it somehow was positive for him despite goD’s anger. And then he said he didn’t know how to comply. Well, goD was either being sarcastic in that he would hope that he wouldn’t wear the crown and act like a “good, humble Christian” and then return someday with an apology or goD meant it; hE wished for him to continue to act as a false god; completely benign except maybe as a form of a test for those who would worship him rather than hiM.

But, obviously goD doesn’t really care what he does, as long as it’s not in heaven. Jakob claims to like a message of disdain and apathy by goD and not to know how to comply with towards one who has no further interest in him.

Let’s not jump to the conclusion that Jakob is using irony here, or is capable of such, but assuming he is using irony (and isn’t simply biblically obtuse towards goD’s messages and displays of power), then perhaps he is showing disdain for goD, who he wishes to challenge; using sarcasm or mockery; as in, “I don’t know what you want goD, but thank you for dragging me by my ear and throwing me out along with a dunce hat.”

Such defiance would be admirable if goD was “real”, but since goD as even a metaphor in his dream cannot be anything other than a representation of some irrelevant power struggle he’s having while awake, it’s very ludicrous.

To give him the most credit, maybe all he was doing was hoping for such a reaction as I’m giving, but even still, besides taking ten minutes to write and giving a good laugh to all, what has this accomplished?

15

As I see it, my golden crown is basically my tragic but imperishable faith that people like you will elevate themselves from their protestantism. The time of the Church is gone. Earth is no longer a place to disregard. It’s not an offense to be thrown back to Earth. Quite the opposite.

16

Wait.

17

So you do know how to comply to goD, after all. Or did you just figure it out? But, either way I’m impressed. (Except for the misassumptions about myself, but I had them coming.)

Edit: Above was a response to one of your former statements, in the above edited post.

18

But, the nerve you had! The nerve to climb up to heaven and expect goD to just let you sit around there when there was still work to be done on earth. As for people like me, your about a month to late to take credit for that. I wonder though about your earlier statement (before the edit) why you would think everyone has potential. I do, going out on a limb, maybe even you do, but surely not everyone??!

19

I was not expecting anything of God, I even had no idea if there was going to be someone up there. I just wanted to see what the fuss was all about. He gained my respect by throwing me back. Before that I never thought much of Him.

The crown signifies that He needs us, he can’t work on Earth without humans. And he can’t control them directly, they’re masters of their own fate, “kings” (given that they have my kind of “nerve”). Free to plunge themselves into doom or to construct a Kingdom.

20

I think that Lilith is the shadow of God on Earth. She represents the fact that we’re bound by our values even when we’re not aware of those values.

We’re only ready to ascend to heaven when we’ve made this whole Lilith conscious. When she no longer “rapes a man in his sleep” - enforces herself (as a value) on us without our knowing.

No man who shuns this shadow will ever ascend to God, it needs to be brought to light. What hides on Earth as “evil” is often a power of God that is still too great for a human to be valued as good.