patriotism

is there any point? with the world cup coming up, people are placing a greater emphasis on it then usual, and i don’t really see the point. i mean in times of war, i suppose it could be useful, but because of football? do you think people should be defined by the country they were born in?

“I hate patriotism, in fact, I know how we can stop patriotism, instead of putting stars and stripes on our flags we should put pictures of our parents fucking. Gather people around that flag and see your dad hunched over your mum’s big four by four butt, see if any boot rally mentality can surface around that fucking image.”

Bill Hicks

i don’t see anything wrong with following a team through the world cup, it’s not like people are going to burn Argentinians living in Britain out of their houses if England lose. it’s just entertainment, granted some get a bit carried away but i have been to plenty of football/rugby matches and i have yet to be in a fight or riot.

Speak for yourself… the majority of Argentinians seem to have mullets so a bit of a burning spree would kill two birds with one stone, really …

On a serious note, I don’t have a problem with patriotism at all - in fact I manage to be patriotic towards both the USA and the UK - although there’s a difference between positive patriotism (thinking YAY! we’re brill! when your team wins) and negative (scalping whatever team beat you).

Obviously if you’re not a patriotic type then that’s your own choice, but I think there’s a lot of moody types out there who aren’t patriotic just to be a bit different, and personally I think that’s shite. If patriotism’s to thank for the feeling of us beating Germany 5-1, then hell, bring on patriotism.

PS … GO England!

GO TAJIKSTAN!

Personally I think football is boring to watch and promotes hooliganism, violence and racism. Professional players are paid much more money than they deserve, the fans are exploited at their expense and the media encourages young people to idolise football stars, some of whom are drunks, drug addicts and adulterers. But that’s as maybe…

The point I would like to make is that there is more sinister underlying issue with patriotism. What value is patriotism? The usual answer is that it gives people an identity. Granted, psychologically and perhaps socially, we crave an identity to be ‘part of a group’. The structure of the current world, split into it’s discrete countries, offers each of us an identity which we do not have to work for. I’ve heard people who were born in Britain and moved to America still call themselves “British”. In what way are they ‘British’? Is it just a label to define which country they were born in, or is there something more? Many would maintain that there is some sort of ‘British culture’ which people can be attatched too.

This is where, I think, the problem lies. What benefit can we gain from attatching ourselves to our nationalities? There are other groups and identities which are far more definitive. I think the only thing that nationality and patriotism does is create negative vibes. This in turn leads to segregation and hatred and violence. Most major conflicts in the history of the human race have been one “nation” against another. For some reason people believe in attacking an ENTIRE group of people based on the sentiments of a small minority or the politicians in charge. If you asked the opinions of some Israeli’s or Palestinian’s about the current intafada, I’m sure many would say they wish they could just go back to living their lives as normal.

Country divides are a misnomer because they do not say ANYTHING about the people who live in it. What defining character can you say about “the British”? They all speak english? So does half the world. We are all individuals (i’m not!). We have our own morals, our own beliefs which cannot be generalised into one national ideal just because it is easier in discussion. Yes, of course it is easier to say “America did this” and “America thinks that” but what exactly are you talking about when you say “America”. Most of the time it will be the actions of the government in charge which is definitely not a representation of 100% of the population.

Naming countries helps in geography but it does not help in social communication. Why can we not all be, first and foremost, members of the human race. Human rights are most important because we are all human. Of course you can have your own individual identity, because it would be a world where the borders were not the physical land barriers of countries, but 6 billion individual ones, which each define us as our own person. What unites us, is that we are all humans and we all wish to have the freedom to live our own lives.

What about the world cup? Well, football matches can still occur, maybe not in the same way as the world cup, but hey, I’d rather give up a few stupid football games, for the hope of a better world.

We are, so this is true. However, psychologically speaking, we all make distinctions between ‘self’ and ‘other’. Whether this is based on race, religion, nationality, political belief, musical taste…whatever…it doesn’t matter. This does not have to boil down to an innate form of racism as that Tory council-member suggested but we should not deny that we all have an instinct to divide oursleves into groups (as you have acknowledged elsewhere in your post). It doesn’t need to be painted in such a negative light though. Ultimately it is inevitable as humans are not innocent enough to live in the hippie’s idealised world. It only becomes a problem, like most things, when our other instincts take hold and things get violent.

Ultimately it is inevitable as humans are not innocent enough to live in the hippie’s idealised world.

what’s red and yellow and looks good on hippies?

fire

Believing that an artificially bounded piece of land is superior and deserves your loyalty and your taxes just because you (or your ancestors) were born in it … how is that different from any other religion ?

Stretching that logic a little, we all should probably be patriotic towards Africa :smiley:

  • Sivakami.

As much as dear Natty would like to agree w/ some by saying, “Screw Patriotism”, it’s kinda hard to do when you’re feeling it the most thse days. (Dont ask Why) :unamused:

But you know what’s sickening?.. The commercial patriotism in America sine 9/11. Sales have been up for I LOVE NY t-shirts and other accesories. higher than it’s ever been. Takin advantage of the poor ppl. and that darn stupid president Bush.

I don’t find patriotism in football to be that bad. AT least some of teh other countries take it way out of hand, but when u’re proud of your ountry and proud of it’s players, why the hell not cheer them on? :slight_smile:
Patriotism is at it’s best when one represents his country, by doing his best. Nothing’s wrong with that at all. I do agree with Ben in saying that theyre over paid, but theyre over paid whilst doing their job. Make their country proud whether theyre successful or not.

I fucking hate it, I really don’t feel like I belong to anywhere, I never feel local, and I can’t help seeing patriotism as slack ass pc mild racism.

Because there’s always the [b]against[/b] component to it. When you cheer on your favourite team, you’re cheering them on to do better against someone else. Its not a win-win, but a zero-sum game.
If there was no against component, patriotism loses all its meaning. Thats why its such a negative thing.
There’s no such thing as a harmless differentiating label. :slight_smile:

Plus its totally irrational anyway !

  • Sivakami.

I have nothing against patriotism at all, it’s all a matter of protecting your livelihood. There’s more reason that I should support people in my country cause they’re the ones who are helping to build the swimming pool down the road, keep the roads in good working order, ensure that I feel safe in my bed at night and stop 100, 000 people flooding into the country to nick my job cause they’re willing to work for half my wage.

That sound rascist? Only in the ultra-liberal insane world, the point is that it’s all true, you stop defining yourself by nationality, there’s no nation state, no point in a government for an arbitary line in the middle of a field to say, on this side you get human rights, a job, a decent education, social security, etc. etc. and on the other side you get persecution, no job, no sewer system, etc. etc.

People in the nation that have all the good things in life shouldn’t feel too guilty anyway. They (in a sense of a never dying people) at some point fought for those rights. The people in Russia fought for the right to be communist, but they were unfortunate to choose the wrong social system. The people in America fought for the right to a democracy, throwing off their colonial masters, here in England we’ve had a long line of civil wars and power overthrows to get to the great system we have today. Other countries have not done this fighting or have failed, sometimes it’s the western countries fault, sometimes it’s the people in the country themself (Germany certainly didn’t fight when it lost democracy and gained fascism, we had to beat it out of them).

I think that’s my attempt to answer ben’s question of what value is patriotism.

On a slight aside, didn’t the whole concept of nationalism only really arise 100-200 years ago with France’s revolutions? Before then it was all identification with a king, or feudal land and the like?

Life, to many , is one big game of survivor. So what if you cheer your team on by going against another?..We’re not perfect and we shouldn’t make the art of selfishness go to waste!. :imp:

Now thats a rational reason for glorifying imperfection and selfishness :laughing:

  • Sivakami.

ben - u r an old man in a young mans body (assuming from your photo)!!

u sound like a schoolteacher

yes footballers are ridicolously overpaid but wouldn’t you do the same thing in the same position?

the reason you find football boring is because u have never really watched it properly, with the right frame of mind. I watch football and think sometimes when Iwatch it that it is incredibly boring. I would stop watching at this point were i WATCHING FOR THE MATCH’S SAKE ,but its the big picture that matters. Each match is a tiny part of a whole… - if you get a picture and look at tiny individual areas of it, some areas would be fasinating and other areas would be , well boring.

well for one reason its alot easier to sort teams out buy their countries. another is that people like to represent the country that nurished their fame and sucess.patriotism is good i think because it shows respect and gives a person something to belive in, or help what has been developed.im sorry if im not looking at another view ,but if im not then that can be a symbol of what a human i am ,which makes the other person responding the same thing.which goes back again in a circle or infinity.so i hope thats right enough.

thought i’d throw in my tuppence.
i’m thinking ben is hitting the nail on the head as far as I’m concerned. I think sports are a waste of time (this is coming from a former sportsman) and watching them is even harder to bear.
granted that the world cup is a little bigger, but I still didn’t watch a game. Just a personal preference.
I personally think that patriotism is redundant and causes more trouble than it’s worth. I grew up in the UK, but am living in the US right now and the 9/11 hype was something to behold. I felt a little like I was in Orwells 1984…and they’re still milking it…what can you do but laugh?

I personally love patriotism. I’m proud of the fact I’m American, and I believe it’s everyone’s God-given right to feel and show love and compassion for one’s country.

Patriotism in my mind is good to a point, though. When you go from patriotism to jingoism, then there’s a little problem. But its not saying you’re better than anyone else. It’s saying that you love your country, and are proud to show that love. And I am still filled with pride every time I see the Star-Spangled Banner, and hear that song, because I know that I love this country, faults and all. That is what patirotism is.

I love America :slight_smile:
[/quote]

The only trouble with what you’ve said Nevir Sonat is that you’re distinguishing between people not according to their personalities but because of their country of origin. I know you wrote that you don’t believe that Americans are better people but if you show such love for them and less love for others then how can you argue that. You’re distinguishing between people according to nationality and loving one type more for no other, rational, reason. To take it to a logical conclusion - who do you rate more highly, a serial killer from your own country (because you’re a patriot) or a person with a similar moral code, personality and interests to you from elsewhere?

Before I said that we all inevitably make divisions between self and other and I still believe this but to do so according to country of origin is in my mind irrational. We all divide into groups but at least we could do so according to interests or beliefs. Having said that, some patriotism is perhaps inevitable in that we innately group ourselves with those around us.

To sum up, is your patriotism based on a greater respect for your ‘people’ because of where they are from, because you are surrounded by them or because you agree with your country’s ideals?

I am a staunch patriot of my beloved planet Earth.
I will fight against anyone who attempts to harm it.

Michael

“Nationalism is our form of incest, is our idolatry, is our insanity.”
Erich Fromm