patriotism

Polemarchus stated:

Many writers, philosophers, directors, and great thinkers have had the concept dawn on them, most unfortunately, that human beings are a disease or a virus of the world. I could easily propose to you that you as a human being are poison in comparison to any animal or plant life on the planet earth. Anything from the household products you use, to the clothes you wear, you as a human being produce more harm than good no matter what kind of a good samaritan or saint you are. For a simple creature like a squirrel does more good for the world than a sophisticated, self-realizing human being. Remember, this argument can be taken both individually and generally to our species.

So my question to you is, how do you fight yourself?

Magius,

You’ve brought up a good point. We humans are surely guilty of fouling our own nest. You asked how I fight myself?

For the past 16 years I’ve made all my domestic electricity from a tiny hydroelectric turbine on my brook, that is; I don’t have commercial power lines running to my house. I grow roughly a quarter of all the food I eat in my organic garden. I use a composting toilet. I’ve not eaten at a fast-food restaurant in many years and have been a vegetarian for nearly 25 years. I’ve never placed a foot inside a Walmart (or other Box-type) store, and can’t remember when I last visited a shopping mall. I have no debts. I walk or ride a bicycle whenever possible instead of driving a car. My wife and I have voluntarily decided not to have any children. I live in a tiny house built with my own hands, and voluntarily own very few personal possessions. For example, I love to read, but only own eleven books. I gernerally borrow books from the library, rather than buy them (it’s only ideas that I hoard). I don’t own a television, and never read a newspaper. I’m neither a Samaritan nor a saint, however, I believe that a world of people living in a like manner would be entirely sustainable. Of course not all of us are content with a life of mathematics, garden flowers, and hiking in the forest. I’m afraid I haven’t been able to devise a general antidote for greed and a lust for power. My life is by no means a perfect life, but my hope is to one day live as close as possible to Shakespeare’s shepherd, Corin, from As You Like It, when he declares:

”I earn that I eat, get that I wear, owe no man hate, envy no man’s happiness, glad of other men’s good, content with my harm.”

Ah, finally Magius, a point on which we might disagree! :slight_smile:

It’s my contention that a wise (as opposed to merely sophisticated) human would settle into a life on this planet that is entirely sustainable and benign. The problem is not that we are more intelligent than the squirrel, the problem is that we are not wise enough. An old theme of mine is that nearly all of us already know how we should live.

”We know the good but do not practice it.” Hippolytus

The problem is not in getting people to understand how their life is ruining the planet for everyone, the problem is getting people to care enough to live in the way that they already know they should. Wisdom isn’t something that only resides your head, it’s something that constantly exudes from both your heart and mind. It’s something that shines forth in your day-to-day life. It’s there when you’re bored, there when you’re angry, and certainly there when you love. It permeates one’s life. (Wisdom isn’t actually the word I’m looking for, the ancient Greeks had a better word for it, though this word escapes me at the moment.)

Do you think squirrels are morally better than men? I say that animals are amoral, while men alone are moral beings. The physical world contains only “is” and not “ought.” Men create the notion of “ought.” Lions don’t bother culling the oldest or the weakest members of the herd if there is a chance of ripping apart a more easily caught new-born Thompson gazelle, for example. I recently jotted into my journal this quote from a book titled, Demonic Males: Apes and the Origins of Human Violence, by Richard Wrangham and Dale Peterson:

Chimpanzee gang assault and murder is marked by a gratuitous cruelty – tearing off pieces of skin, for example, twisting limbs until they break, or drinking a victim’s blood – reminiscent of acts that among humans are regarded as unspeakable crimes during peacetime and atrocities during war.”

Chimpanzee males spend most of their adult life in the quest to become the Alpha male. They employ any means at their disposal to achieve this: trickery, intimidation, conspiracy and murder are commonly practiced. I suspect that if I could teach a Chimp to use a handgun, he would think nothing of using it on his enemies. If one could teach the Chimp to fly an F-16 he would have no compunction about using this attack aircraft to strike the neighboring tribe of Chimps. Ditto for chemical weaponry. The reason that Chimps are not a threat to our survival on Earth is not that Chimps lack the will, they merely lack the means to nuke and pollute us to death. High technology to a Chimp comes in the form of a broken tree branch used as a temporary weapon.

Men, rather than Chimps possess F-16 attack jets because they are more intelligent than Chimps. At the same time, men possess F-16 attack jets because they lack a ubiquitous wisdom (oh, where is that Greek word?!). We have unfortunately acquired the intelligence to invent the means to inflict great suffering, in fact our own extermination, before we acquired the wisdom to produce a culture where such things would be superfluous. Despite the fact that it’s all come to us backwards, that’s just the way it happened. We will deal with it or perish. We’re presently on a precarious and exposed slope of the human learning curve.

That human upstarts came to this place on the curve at all is a fluke of nature; a mere chance. Had the climate not changed such that we were forced out of the trees and on to the savannas, where we gradually assumed an upright posture, then perhaps the planet would still be the mythical “Garden of Eden,” before Adam so rudely turned up. On the other hand, chance might have favored or cursed (your choice) Giraffes or Ravens with the ability to make oil refineries for petrol and napalm. Perhaps this has already happened in at least one universe in our hypothetical Multiverse? In any case, it didn’t happen that way in this Universe. In this one, it was the men on Earth that first obtained higher intelligence, and men will either profit or suffer the consequences for this intelligence. For good or for bad, the other higher life forms on this planet have no choice but to go along for the ride. Men are not going back into the caves voluntarily, and the other animals can’t get off the planet. Our fates are necessarily intertwined. The question is whether “wisdom” (to be replaced with that forgotten Greek word) will arrive before extinction.

Nature set large asteroids on course with the Earth’s orbit as surely as it elevated men among other animals to acquire advanced technology. Will an asteroid hit the planet or miss? Will men continue their destruction of this world, or will we suddenly acquire a paradigm shift great enough to set us on a new course of benign co-evolution? It’s still too early to tell if mankind will be a catastrophe or a blessing to the other life on this planet. For the moment, the Squirrels can only watch and wait.

Michael

“Chimpanzee males spend most of their adult life in the quest to become the Alpha male. They employ any means at their disposal to achieve this: trickery, intimidation, conspiracy and murder are commonly practiced”

To be honest, the same could be true of humans, and usually is

Which reminds me of my post. Males strive for dominance but we are moving away from a male dominated society. So what do females strive for?

Polemarchus,
I must admit I am inspired by what you have done and how you live your life. Although, I don’t believe the majority of people would share my view. We need more believers like yourself.

Polemarchus stated:

My statement about the squirrel was directed to show that an animal with a very limited IQ is capable of doing more good than a human being with a high IQ. Whether we are smart enough or not, is not the case, but that this IQ that we do have is working against us and more importantly, the world.

Polemarchus stated:

People don’t know how to live so that they help the world and themselves. If they did, intelligent people like Buckminster Fuller would not have spent their lives trying to understand this very concept, and more importantly, doing something about it. I agree about the caring, you have a point there. I believe that making people realize just how their lives are ruining the planet will also make people want to learn if there is anything that can be done to stop it. This will entice people to create gadgets, change their lifestyles, look at the world in a different light, and most importantly it will bring people to the realization that information is the most powerful thing in the universe. The more they learn the more they will be able to do for the earth, and the more they do for the earth the happier they will be.

You were saying something about a word that you were looking for, but in greek, ‘Sophia’ is the greek word for wisdom.

Polemarchus stated:

My statement is not in reference to ‘morality’, but to the well being of our planet. I agree, and have stated many times before, that morality is something created by humans - it really doesn’t exist. But to me, destroying ones own species and many others is wrong, therefore, it is wrong for humans to be doing the things we are, and to be on the planet in the shear numbers that there are of us. These numbers in themselves hurt the planet more and more each day. In this way, a squirrel does more good than any human can hope or dream of today (maybe not in the future).

Polemarchus stated:

In a way I agree and in another my view turns away. Your statement makes me out to sound like it’s either one way or another, no inbetween. My view is that man has lately (about 200 years) been a catastrophe, but my view is not that he necessarily always was, nor am I saying that he always will.

What’s your take?

but humans make the most excellent cheese!!!

would the genius squirrel, steal an already gathered stash of nuts? does the inability to devise systematic ways of making life easier (which humans do, making life hell for everything else) make something more moral or noble? i know it was wrong to equate this to a thieving squirrel, but i think it still got my point accross…

i think the use of tools period (which seperates us from almost all species) is the essential undoing. the ability to compound tools, and improve them makes it only worse. but there is an equilibrium of sorts, it maybe that our catastrophic bahavior may be needed…

Back on the topic of patriotism and the whole 9-11 terrorism thing in the US… The day after I swear everyone had an american flag on their car driven by gas supporting the same people who want us all to die! Kinda reminds me of a funny WWII propaganda poster I saw that had a picture of a guy driving alone with hitler’s ‘spirit’ with him, the caption read: “When your ride alone you ride with Hitler.”

So is an american flag patriotism? NO! Action is patriotism… Everyone can go buy a flag at the corner shop to help support the economy but only some can actually go do something to make a difference. Now, ill be this first to say that I didn;t do anything and I feel shitty for it, but at least I can realize my faults and the problem as a whole. The flags still are a daily sight and it really bugs me that people think that will pass as some sort of action supporting the US… I just wanna yell “we all know you feel bad but fucking go do something!”

I’m done.

-Marc

Locke_Key,
you expressed some good and interesting points. But I seem to fail and recognize that given what you said, what have we learned, or what is the point? Saying maybe there is a point to all our destruction, is a good open minded statement, especially for those hard headed, close minded, individuals that are set in thinking that things are either one way or another. For instance, most people think that industrialization is good despite pollution and the loss of fertile natural land. While others will say that industrialization is not good for anything. Maybe, you are right. Maybe, I am right. Maybe, neither one of us is right. Maybe, someone else is right. Maybe, no one else is right. What am I really saying? Rhetorical question. I hope I got the point across.

What’s your take?

ahem so i take it you’re assuming that everybody from arabic countries wishes death to yourself, your family and your fellow countrymen. and you think that they are prejudiced.

All arabs do not wish us to die. All rich arabs do not want us do die, but some do. Of those few rich arabs who want us to die, some have oil. Of those few, some sell oil to th west. Of that oil some is used in petrol. So he wasnt entirely wrong, we do support terror by driving. So really, the US should sigh the Kyoto Treaty, as part of the War on (some) Terror. HAH! Caught you out Bush.

right…hmm… that was typed in a way that made it sound different than I wanted it to. What I mean is that we, the U.S., buy TONS of oil from Iraq and Saddam Hussein is the ruler of Irag. I do not mean to say that the people in Iraq want us dead, hell, most of em are probably as nice as the guy next door to me, but their leader is not. He does want us dead. He supports the Al-Quaeda movememnt and Bin Laden, both against the U.S. Hope this clears that up… im not as judgemental as I may seem after that post. :wink:

-M

It is actually highly unlikely that saddam does actually support Al Qaeda, considering that he has been violently suppressing the Muslim Brotherhood, a closely related group, in Iraq for years. However, he is very anti-American, but in no way an Islamist. If anything, he’s a communist/socialist.

it’s fine to be proud of what country you come from, but when it gets to your head, when you’ll do anything for that country with out question you hide behind that country and ignore it’s problems then it goes a bit to far.

When that country becomes very much like a God to you then thats not right. Why? because then it leads to the mentality of my country is better then yours, your not from my country thus your sub-human.
that mentality can lead to lots of blood shed and grief.
Personally I have no favorite country. Earth is earth to me. we’re all human beings.

But I still don’t understand this idea of being “proud” of a piece of dirt. Be proud of it’s principles and culture maybe, but to swear loyalty to a flag, (idol worship, surely?) and area of land just seems ludicrous

I think it is important to distinguish between creative patriotism (the love of one’s country) and destructive patriotism (the hatred of one’s neighbors).

I see nothing wrong with creative patriotism. When we grant ourselves the right to love our country, we can grant others the right to love theirs.

Well it’s supposed to be what the flag stands for. And people love to bring up the point that people died for that flag when in reality they died for various other reasons that probably had nothing to do with the flag. Unless they were one of those stupid people that charge into the fray to get themselves shot. But actually I was talking to my friend about the flag while I spun it and smacked it against things. I told him that I was going to burn the flag. He went on to say that if I burned the flag then he would kick my ass. Now when you start putting a flag before your friendship with someone then that’s just sad. I found it funny how much respect for friendship was worth when a piece of cloth was put between us.

‘i claim this country in the name of britain’

‘you can’t claim it - we live here - 29 million of us’

‘well, have you got a flag?’

‘we don’t need a flag we live here!’

‘no flag no country; it’s in the rules that i’ve just made up. and i’m going to back it up with this rifle.’

I wish everyone on earth could use such reasoning and then we’d be much better off. Instead of hating each other for our differences we could maybe love each other for them. Also, that last sentence… nice.

And about Saddam Hussein; Whether he directly supports Al Quaida a/o bin Laden really makes no difference to me. I think, though, that the guy gives people like bin Laden the thumbs up when no one is looking. The fact that he is very anti-american is what I was getting at in my original post. The fact that patriotic pro-americans go around in their flag-toting cars buying billions of dollars of crude oil from Iraq just makes me laugh. It’s just a huge irony that no one gets!

-m

HVD stated:

I tend to agree somewhat. I agree in principle of it being absurd that one is proud of their country, what is a country? A thing we made up that contains borders. We border ourselves! And we wonder why it’s in our nature to destroy ourselves. I believe in respecting the world in general, not a piece of it. I am thankful for being able to live, life began only because of the conditions of the planet Earth (well some other interstellar conditions as well but I wish not to get technical). I cherish the ground I walk on, the air I breath, and the nature that surrounds me - I also can’t help but feel anger and pain for my own kind that is destroying everything around them, and inadvertantly as well as blindly, destroying ourselves.

I too believe it ludicrous to worship a flag.

What’s your take?

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