Pavlovian Dancing

[size=150]Pavlovian Dancing[/size]

Here I do not know that I take exactly what is of the ideas around Pavlovian Conditioning. Rather I use the term “pavlovian” to signify the formulation of many behaviors so as to indicate the solution to the nature of both personal and societal habits of the unnecessary and detrimental types. I believe this may be all extendable to almost anything involving interaction between anything thinking and perhaps simply anything living.

First I will discuss what I will call a Pavlovian Vice. A pavlovian vice is when someone has associated a thing with negativity for a long time, and then when that thing is not permeating negativity that person continues to associate that thing with negativity. An example of this might be if I were to always smell bad and have bad armpit odor because I do not as frequently wash and do not as frequently wear deodorant if at all. Over time a fellow used to your company may associate negativity to your smell, consider that it is bad to smell of BO be that for whatever reason (I suspect a bit of Pavolvian conditioning having lead to that in the first place, on a social level), nonetheless that person begins to think you smell bad. Then one day after I shower and also put on deodorant right before going out to lunch with this person, that person insists that I not hold my arm up because I have bad body odor. Now that would be simple enough as considered a logical fallacy; assuming that most of the time means all of the time. But then that same person actually insists that you do smell of body odor. When you point out such is not possible they continue to insist and might say such as, “what do you think I am hallucinating.” In which case you might could say they are, but not quite, rather they are experiencing a Pavlovian Vice, wherein they have negatively associated with an action, that of a raised arm pit, significant negativity long enough to then actually experience that negativity and disorientation and even feel the negative smell simply as a result of conditioning. Think of it as a natural survival instinct to a degree, an instinct though that can have its positive aspects retained and the rest discarded such as to further civilizing people. The natural instinct is the same as to why, for example, an animal might develop harder skin in conditions wherein there is more penetrating and harsh skin conditions; likewise as one abused learns to recoil so does the nose learn to recoil in the previous case and therein this recoiling is that of the sensation of smell. This is a case I saw in a friend. One might wonder why I would call such a vice, I do so because it can lead to social complication; as in one might dislike and thus fight someone over a silly negative association to something actually in a positive state. These vices are such as well because they lead to expenditure on fixing what does not need to be fixed rather than fixing the reaction of the self. However, Pavlovian Vices can occur elsewhere; across an entire society not just for a single person. For example the association of body with negativity has pervaded beyond necessity. Personally I would think that body odor was once acceptable and that it was largely the association with positive scents that thin in contrast lead to the relative association of negativity to the absence of those scents and thus another sort of Pavlovian Vice. Surely a vice in that there is no need to have a negative association with “normal” body odor in so far as it is not indicative of a lack of cleanliness. In other words a person can go around with what might, in this day and age, be considered “stinky” arm pits for maybe two weeks before they were really of a level of dirtiness where cleaning was needed, at least of the arm pits. Though I am not certain of the time frame but I imagine one can have smelly armpits for quite some time and not really be detrimentally dirty, in fact I might say that being a little less obsessively clean can aid the immune system, whereas obsessive washing for example can lead to the atrophy of the immune system to at least a small degree.(Every little bit adds up over time, thus I do not believe in insignificance of such things that can aid the prevention of waste.) An example of the nature of the pavolvian vice further can be in the evidence of where I had just taken a shower, and someone thought that I smelled. Surely I did, all things have smell, but the matter is that the smell was associated with negativity when it did not need to be, clearly I was clean as I had just taken a shower, and I had even used scented soap as well. What this may further suggest is that there are particular smells associated with deodorant that then when not smelled lead to assumptions of negativity in there being a lack of what was the expected positivity.

Ultimately the above mentioned should be classified as Negative Pavlovian Vices. There can also be Positive Pavolovian Vices. This is where one associates positivity with something and then when it becomes negative they continue to associate positivity to it. These are those less easily expected, less easily seen, and less easily accepted. Though a more common example of where a Positive Pavlovian Vice can occur might be drugs, specifically one like marijuana which is not physically addictive. (I would say that physical alteration can be included in pavlovian conditioning but many will find such a stretch, I find it a unific metaphor such as to signify interrelation between behavioral tendencies…) Marijuana is not typically even very psychologically addictive in my opinion, I would refer though to what many rather accurately call psychological addiction as a Positive Pavlovian Vice, wherein one experiences quite often pleasure and happiness from the drug, not in so far as a literal physical increase in happy-chemicals (at least of significance beyond that of a the good taste of a soft drink), but just that it makes things more enjoyable and it is fun. As a result smoking marijuana becomes continuously associated with fun, thus pleasure, and then when a situation comes around where it is not so good then the positive association can be continued by some, clearly not all; many in this case have the will to overcome. But then I have seen in others as well as in myself, the condition of smoking marijuana when one could have otherwise done something more beneficial, such as go to work or school, or study or learn, rather than consume entertainment. Of course many do not merely consume when on marijuana, rather I am pointing out wherein the use of the thing can actually be negative as a result of associating the thing with positivity to too high of a degree. This one many say is largely avoidable on the conscious level, to that I would say that more and more pavlovian conditioning is avoidable the more conscious you are. A more drastic Positive Pavlovian Vice might be associating a particular form of joke with laughing and thus hilarity and then when in a situation where laughing at such would result in ostracizing one can’t help but laugh. The first example of this that comes to mind on a societal scale is that of the ancient Christian church wherein it began to do the more negative things but people had always associated it with positivity and thus continued to even when it became negative. Again this could have been consciously avoided but such is the case with most Pavlovian Vices.

Finally there is what I would call Pavlovian Dancing. Pavlovian Dancing is where a person is aware of the nature of positive and negative pavlovian vices and constantly growing there capacity to recognize and avoid all forms of pavlovian vices. This of course is done by being aware of things on a more logical level so as to avoid falling into a pattern of definitive association rather than having associative shifting capacity. It is one thing to avoid pavlovian vices, but one of the keys is recognizing using this such as to associate pleasure or positivity to things less likely to result in negativity and associating negativity only with things less likely to be positive. All for the sake of what is best. That is to say that one should for example learn to associate water with pleasure rather than overly sugar filled drinks as such would then be healthier and as water is already a necessity one might as well associate positivity to a higher degree, and take pleasure in drinking it because of its nature as to allow benefit more frequently and thus overall more benefit over more time.(such one could metaphorically call; turning water into wine) Yet at the same time it is important to maintain balance and not force the mind into a state of what I would call Pavlovain Muddle wherein one over associates things in their Pavlovian Dancing. For example one might associate too much pleasure with drinking water and drown themselves, or drink so much their kidneys fail, yet fortunately a wise person might associate pleasure with this in the first place due to the low likely hood that someone is going to ‘overdo it’. Also it would seem important not to attempt a state of limitless euphoria wherein one associates all things with pleasure and goodness, as then one might, say, jump off a cliff thinking it would be pleasure or do something that would otherwise be reductive to the overall capacity to receive benefit. Keep in mind that I would extenuate the benefit of one as requiring the benefit of as many as possible due to interconnection of the environment in all its forms social and the more physical. So this shows that it is important to associate things that are not beneficial with negativity, this does not mean they have to be associated with agitation, as such is in itself detrimental, rather one should associate the things not beneficial with negativity but remain aware of the benefit of doing such so as to then recognize contented pleasure in respect to balance.

One of the largest problems with this though is wherein there are Societal Pavlovian Vices. These are very hard to lead to being overcome for the more that do it the more others think it is right. If it is thought good the more the people will think for sure that it must be good, the more it is thought bad the more people will think it is bad. Many, even when shown such, disregard it as being inconsequential often thinking that it is not significantly wasteful often not seeing how when done on such a broad scale it is. Just as recycling fixes a problem and it was said to be important that every little bit counts so too is it that the little bit of energy, both of time, of labor, and actual electricity put into the building of such things as deodorant; is while a small waste in the instance, a large waste on the scale of the greater population. The problem then, as many might find, is that if you go around not wearing deodorant people will associate you with negativity and think you are an unclean and bad person, then if you attempt to argue with them it will take a dissertation, which will be too long for their willing attention. As a result people might see that in many cases one has to submit to the will of the mob so as to keep from being trampled. However there is then the too common problem of people just offering no resistance whatsoever, not realizing that to slow the mob all one has to do is offer just that little bit of resistance that is not too much. And over time given more and more resistance and the spreading of the thought the Societal Pavlovian Vice, the vice can be overcome. Just as gayness become prevalent over time as a result of the will of the few to stand up against the mob and offer resistance. So for example, in this rather menial seeming case of deodorant; one does not need to stop wearing it all together as of instantly but can rather wear less, allow themselves to smell every now and then, not care as much, mention the silliness of it all when it comes up, and then when it becomes evident one must comply so as to keep from being run over then so be it. But then it is important to apply this to many things, and realize that the reason one needs to keep from being run over the mob is greatly important in that it allows for them to resist further down the road, and help in the long run more effectively. With regards to any alteration to society: It would then seem that one might be wise to strike with shock the mob by allowing there death when life is evident to no longer be of the capacity to be productive, to then use that death to force the point, or it does not have to be death, but rather allow the social death of ostracizing when social mingling is no longer important so as then to stand up and make room for others, For the more that stand up the more expected becomes standing up and the more expected thus the more accepted.

It’s called immunization, and that’s what meditation is based on.
Everything that you just described is in Buddhism by other terms.
So, yes.

I would hope these terms might be accessible to certain sorts…
And people might start considering this more and using it rather than…

I think that’s been the general hope of all such pursuits.

Abstract, you sent me a pm asking me to comment on your op with regard to my thread about Marketing. I’m still pondering, so please forgive me if I don’t reply tonight, other than to say the first part of your thread doesn’t follow your usual style of writing or thinking.

And I’m very glad you said early on that what you wanted to talk about was Ivan Pavlov’s conditioning rather than Anna Pavlova’s ballet technique. :smiley:

Excuse me, I just had a thought. (Be kind, it does happen!) Conditioning plays a large part in Marketing and PR, yes–I’m just not sure yet how to relate your ideas with mine. Perhaps your usual responses, written in unpunctuated sentences often full of either typos or misspellings have ‘conditioned’ me to ‘gloss’ over your real thoughts. IDK…

Whatever, I’ve been working on it, because I think, behind all the distractions your writing ‘style’ present to me, you obviously have thought.

I am a shape-shifter. I am water.

I don’t hold to a shape but I am still a single thing…I do not think i am ever perfectly certain of anything…But then i wrote this originally with the intent of having the more empirically oriented readers…(I did not write it originally for the philosophy forum)

i have always use ellipses… I discovered they probably mean I am un-100%-certain and signify that i do not believe any thought ends…

My first concern is that some of what you have said has indicated that you feel it is too hard to change things…(isn;t that why we discuss the problems in Marketing?) I would think it is complex but can be understood and things can be changed… Part of the key is getting people to actually understand what is going on…people listen they do not hear…people know but they do not understand…

Secondly this is all known to a degree by various people and to marketers, but they do not understand it they merely know it, they are like children toting a gun…it would seem… except it isn’t instant kill and they are pointing it at themselves…a lot of people think “they” are just evil doing manipulators…but it seems to me that really they are all just rather ignorant of what they are doing… they genuinely think it is good and is lending to good…albeit some are concerned only with profit but they think that profit is what makes the world go round…some may think it is for just themselves but they are just silly enough to think that it is only the “self” that matters. Most though are trying to help…as they say “the road to hell is paved with good intentions” so I say it can be important to simply speak their language…

I really don’t care if you’re water, wind, fire, or ice, Abstract, nor do I care if you use ellipses–I use dashes.

Do I feel things are too difficult to change–I’m not sure. The consumer is certainly conditioned by the methods used by both marketing and PR. My thread was an attempt to raise awareness of that fact. I would say, based on the number of responses, most people here, at least, are aware–but have no more suggestions than do either you or I as to how to change anything based on that awareness. I’ve found the same to be true in posts I’ve written that pose questions about the obvious facts of our current lives in the face of rampant consumerism. You and I and everyone here may know (that oats, peas, beans and barley grow–Sorry, that just popped out of my head–) that consumerism is driven by marketing and PR, but are we willing to stop buying ‘stuff?’ Are we willing, given our knowledge of how the "campaign ‘experts’ and ‘planners’ use their psychology to plan their methods in order to sway voting, to use our very good minds and our abilities to draw on our critical thinking in order to get beyond what the ‘experts’ want us to think?

Remember, no matter what they call themselves, they are highly trained, non-clinical psychologists. They’ve been trained to twang a string to get people to respond the way their employers want people to respond. Believe me, please, if I say, imo, this has nothing to do with what’s best for the country.

Now that I’ve answered you, I hope, I think I’ll look at the answers people have posted under “Marketing.” Danke.

it was a metaphor…

raising awareness is important but then it isn’t a matter of figuring out exactly what to do there is no standardized exact thing that should be done beyond simply going out in the world discussing it with as many people you can, not just philosophers, but ‘average-joes’ and without being rude or forceful but polite and suggestive. (in other words don’t get worked up) talk to people as to what little things what little goals might help the big one, and work on those things. and then work to get into a position where one can change things ultimately (that doesn’t mean you have to become a pollution, it can be as simple as being an adviser to one, or working with one, or even being a good teacher for students…spreading the word, encouraging people to vote on a thing, writing a book, there are all kinds of ways to make some change, one just has to avoid thinking it must be some sudden change…or one can work on as many of these things as possible not just one…every movement starts somehwere, the first step is taking action…don’t just think what might be or this or that, go out and find out…but then maybe that is what you are doing Lizbeth…how is this not an explanation of what can be done?

just because one is talking on a forum does not mean that is all they do by any means…

Maybe people should start looking into who these psychologists are and start talking to them… convince them… so lets me and you figure this out then… how do we find these people and get in contact with them! I’m completely serious! there may be many but isn’t there a top domino? How do we find that one how do we contact it can we contact it, lets not assume we can’t… maybe we just have to start talking to a certain number of them. doesn’t have to be the top domino either that is…

In this country, the way to get the biggest domino is to become the biggest domino. And the way to become the biggest capitalist psychology domino is to display how the model of human behavioral encouragement that you propose is best suited for human satisfaction is better at generating sustainable fiscally responsible returns at the least amount of changing effort than the current philosophy.

One doesn’t need to influence a country alone to influence a country. However you are right to a degree, in dso far that the most can be done is by those who are ‘popular’ though often those who are do not do much with their popularity. The key is not necessarily introducing a form of specific thing such as you suggested, but rather one need only prove benefit period, though many are hard to acsept that a thing can be beneficial if it does not involve money being saved… When the funny thing is that in reality if it is truly beneficial then it would seem the enrgy which is waht is represented by money, is most saved if it is benefical, though at times it requires more sudden expenditure than some are willing to partake in, and again it may be a lack of expenditure that seems to indicate reduction in profits…which amounts to the same thing and can then be said that a loss of profits for a time can be a bursted expenditure for more longterm and overall increased return.