Peace

[Ierrellus]

@monad

@Ierrellus

The warming of the seas among other things is a harbinger of impending disaster.

That has long been known but only recently started circulating among the masses when it was made clear, not by what anyone said but by demonstration, that it’s no-longer a theory.

@Ierrellus

While Auden was writing about a world in conflict, his poem fits our condition of destruction of ecosystems.

I read it a long time ago but reread it again since you mention it. Auden despised the poem almost as soon as it was written, especially its most famous line, the one you quoted. He thought it ludicrous and dishonest. Nevertheless, the poem remains popular with the masses mostly due to a line of duplicitous sentimentality. Even though there are some very good lines in it, I agree with Auden on its overall merit. He wrote much better ones. Again I’d say that fear not love is the main motivator in the human psyche…the one that forces compromise among ourselves or a total retreat realizing the war is lost if we war against nature.

@Ierrellus

In what sense is compromise not a settling for less than was wanted? Especially since the stakes are so high?

I’m not sure in what context the question is asked. Compromises are made among people and nations. All sides start out asking for more but expecting to receive less to achieve equilibrium that’s mutually beneficial or at least acceptable for the time being. Compromises with nature, as you pointed out, is not possible. A natural process forced to mutate cannot be bargained with.

It saddens me to learn that Auden chose to despise his poem. I read it in the 1960s back when hope, peace and love were considered possible for everyone. But those days are gone. The dream is dead? We will all soon be if we do not learn at least to respect each other as all being in the sinking boat. Is respect the only compromise we can make?

[Fixed_Cross]

Respect is not so much a compromise as a relatively difficult act to perform. A perfect moron cannot extend respect, and a genius of the heart can do it really well. And among humans unless one is such a genius it will have to come from both sides, otherwise it is just too hards to sustain it, not to give in. And all this said, what kind of human action do we respect and where is the limit? Where does infringing on peoples right to self-expression become disrespectful? All these issues have clouded our judgement and obscured the fact that to respect is to be rewarded with great pride and intimate wisdom of that which one respects. Respect is awesome. Come to think, awe is great, pure respect.

We all respect the lightning. Therefore Heraklitos says “lightningbolt steers all things”.

[monad]

@Ierrellus

It saddens me to learn that Auden chose to despise his poem. I read it in the 1960s back when hope, peace and love were considered possible for everyone. But those days are gone.

Those days were never really here in the first place.

@Ierrellus

The dream is dead?

It’s nice to dream but dreams never accomplish anything.

@Ierrellus

Is respect the only compromise we can make?

Respect is always a good thing to have especially when trying to expedite a compromise. Poetic sentiments on the other hand, are not in the least able to manage or cure any of our current problems. Idealism mainly connotes our hopes not realities that beg for a solution.

[Ierrellus]

How is mutual respect different from love one another? Doesn’t love imply respect?

[Ierrellus]

@Fixed Cross

Respect is not so much a compromise as a relatively difficult act to perform. A perfect moron cannot extend respect, and a genius of the heart can do it really well. And among humans unless one is such a genius it will have to come from both sides, otherwise it is just too hards to sustain it, not to give in. And all this said, what kind of human action do we respect and where is the limit? Where does infringing on peoples right to self-expression become disrespectful? All these issues have clouded our judgement and obscured the fact that to respect is to be rewarded with great pride and intimate wisdom of that which one respects. Respect is awesome. Come to think, awe is great, pure respect.

We all respect the lightning. Therefore Heraklitos says “lightningbolt steers all things”.

I can respect a rattlesnake for being what it is. But I have no love for the creature. In other words respect can be another word for fear.

[Fixed_Cross]

That is true.
If you don’t mind an analytical path, this opens two rather heady maybe boring maybe fertile questions.
Does fear automatically grant respect?
Is fear the only guarantor of respect?

In any case, if respect is a form of valuing - if - then valuing can be composed for a good deal out of fear.

[Bob]

@Ierrellus

It saddens me to learn that Auden chose to despise his poem. I read it in the 1960s back when hope, peace and love were considered possible for everyone. But those days are gone. The dream is dead? We will all soon be if we do not learn at least to respect each other as all being in the sinking boat. Is respect the only compromise we can make?

As far as I can make out, the sixties were influenced by protest movements and sentiments that grew after two world wars ending with the A-Bomb and then other conflicts including Vietnam. Being in a military environment at the time, I didn’t catch on until late. It became clear to me then, that humanity had gone through hell at the beginning of the century. A hell that, from my place in time, I couldn’t of imagined, had there not been the movies that often made the killing fields into a heroes story. There were people who saw no other way ahead than sending young men to their deaths. It was very clear to everybody then, except when soldiers lay in agony in the trenches, but they were heroes and their agony forgotten.

A strange thing happened when the peace movements became widespread. The crime rate went up, especially deaths relating to crime. The taut fabric of society, loosened by the young, started tearing and whatever imagination of peace had developed was shattered by the the deaths of protestors, of Martin Luther King, of the Kennedy’s and numerous others. In Europe, we started hoping for a different world. It was protected by the military but provided peace in countries that had regularly been at war. There was compromise made on all sides, but it held.

In the new century, things started tearing again. People had forgotten about the hell of the twentieth century. Young people became preoccupied with superficial things and thereby failed to realise that the peace in which they live must still be worked for. We have to align ourselves with the good and make an effort. But I get the feeling that peace is to many like the water that comes out of the tap, and electricity that come from the plug in the wall. Making dreams real needs an ongoing effort, without which, peace cannot survive.

[Ierrellus]

@Fixed Cross

That is true.
If you don’t mind an analytical path, this opens two rather heady maybe boring maybe fertile questions.
Does fear automatically grant respect?
Is fear the only guarantor of respect?

In any case, if respect is a form of valuing - if - then valuing can be composed for a good deal out of fear.

Good questions for which I have no ready answer. I just believe that there are some issues, such as the destruction of ecosystems that do not submit to compromise.

[Ierrellus]

@Bob

@Ierrellus

It saddens me to learn that Auden chose to despise his poem. I read it in the 1960s back when hope, peace and love were considered possible for everyone. But those days are gone. The dream is dead? We will all soon be if we do not learn at least to respect each other as all being in the sinking boat. Is respect the only compromise we can make?

As far as I can make out, the sixties were influenced by protest movements and sentiments that grew after two world wars ending with the A-Bomb and then other conflicts including Vietnam. Being in a military environment at the time, I didn’t catch on until late. It became clear to me then, that humanity had gone through hell at the beginning of the century. A hell that, from my place in time, I couldn’t of imagined, had there not been the movies that often made the killing fields into a heroes story. There were people who saw no other way ahead than sending young men to their deaths. It was very clear to everybody then, except when soldiers lay in agony in the trenches, but they were heroes and their agony forgotten.

A strange thing happened when the peace movements became widespread. The crime rate went up, especially deaths relating to crime. The taut fabric of society, loosened by the young, started tearing and whatever imagination of peace had developed was shattered by the the deaths of protestors, of Martin Luther King, of the Kennedy’s and numerous others. In Europe, we started hoping for a different world. It was protected by the military but provided peace in countries that had regularly been at war. There was compromise made on all sides, but it held.

In the new century, things started tearing again. People had forgotten about the hell of the twentieth century. Young people became preoccupied with superficial things and thereby failed to realise that the peace in which they live must still be worked for. We have to align ourselves with the good and make an effort. But I get the feeling that peace is to many like the water that comes out of the tap, and electricity that come from the plug in the wall. Making dreams real needs an ongoing effort, without which, peace cannot survive.

Good thoughts about the 60s. At the time I was ultraconservative. It took the deaths of the Kennedys, MLK, and college students to “awaken me from my dogmatic slumber”, as did studies of Blake.
The U.S. is now retreating into nationalism and isolationism ,both of which are very popular with the majority, which our last election proved was neoconservative. But we dismiss our allies at our own peril. “No man is an island”. No country is either.

[Ierrellus]

Auden’s choosing to change his poem’s line from “We must love another or die.” to ‘We must love one another and die". may have had to do with his wish to leave "an affirming flame’ without false hopes. But the original thought still resonates as “A dream deferred” by inability to compromise. I’m guessing.

[Arcturus_Descending]

Fixed Cross:

Respect is not so much a compromise as a relatively difficult act to perform.

There are moments/situations I think that respect can call for or be a type of compromise which will make it a relatively difficult act to perform, as in situations where both parties can be seen as having rights and privileges which ought not to be infringed on. Those who “see” this will attempt to find a way around it so that
there can be mutual satisfaction although I believe that one party may suffer a bit of loss over another which can be seen as giving respect and at the same time allowing for more balance in the world.

A perfect moron cannot extend respect,

Do you mean one who is just plain ignorant?

and a genius of the heart can do it really well

.
Why? Perhaps because a so-called genius of the heart has compassion, empathy and understanding?

And all this said, what kind of human action do we respect and where is the limit?

Courage under fire for a just and sustaining cause. I stand in awe of that. Perhaps I am a coward at heart. lol As William James said “The greatest use of life is to spend it for something that will outlast it.” Perhaps the limit can be seen somewhere within that quote.

Where does infringing on peoples right to self-expression become disrespectful?

Perhaps at the moment of “infringement”? Or is that too simple? Perhaps at the moment when that infringement makes another person lose face or makes him question his own self hood? As you said above,
…“a relatively difficult act to perform.” Words have great power and using them wisely does not come easy at times.

We all respect the lightning.

Yes, it is awesomely beautiful and can be lethal at the same time. Respect - to look back at something and to see it for what it is.
But where to go from there?

[Ierrellus]

Human hubris sees man as “the crown of creation” with dominion over nature. Because of this belief man exploits nature and respects the natural cycles and ecosytems only in times of natural disaster. In that instance respect is fear because no compromise is possible.

[Ierrellus]

Happy holidays—and peace and good will for all.