Nobody says “Excuse Me” anymore. They will say “Watch yourself”; “Behind you”; “Coming through”; “Can I get at the paper towel?”, etc. They will say anything but the simple phrase “Excuse Me”. The nomenclature of politeness has become anathema. “Sir” and “Ma’am” now mean “You are old”, and not “I am trying to address your respectfully, because we are not familiar”. The ego is paramount. Nobody owes anybody anything. This is a symptom of a breakdown of society and the rise of endemic alienation.
Note: This is intended in the most general way. There will always be specific exceptions.
I’m sympathetic to your reaction, but I’d like you to know that I’m not a pessimist. I’m not saying The World is Going to Shit. I’m just pointing out something that bothers me. I guess there is enough of that kind of perspective our there that anything that anything that resembles it provokes your type of reaction. I think the reality of things is a dialectic between things getting worse and things getting better.
Our culture is probably more speedy and pragmatic than it used to be. If someone said “excuse me” to me I might just say “yes?” and not get out of the way…
Does speedy and pragmatic equate with or lead to lack of traditional manners? Probably. To more solidified ego? I’m not as sure about that.
You are making my point, synt. All of these become “empty” phrases - expedient phrases. We are not actually beging someone’s pardon when we say “pardon me” (which is the phrase that I use).
I’m sorry, but I didn’t see that point in your original response to me.
Language certainly does change, and those changes can be for the better or for the worse. It is my personal opinion that the kind of change I’m describing is a bad one.
Your point that these phrases are empty of real meaning, and merely expedite certain social interactions is a fair one. But my comment about one phrase over another was meant to counter anon’s assertion that people have stopped saying “excuse me” because there are more expeditious options. If our choice of phrases is based on which one is more expeditious, then we have no basis for choosing to say “behind you” rather than “excuse me”, and therefore there must be another explanation.
That explanation could be your suggestion that language simply changes, or it could be my explanation that language has changed in this specific way because people are less concerned about being polite to each other.
I do think that there is a meaningful difference between “excuse me” and “coming through”, even though they both have a similar form. I think the choice to say “excuse me” reflects a desire to make polite interaction explicit. I do think that the choice reflects on the speaker. All of the alternatives to “excuse me” are empty, expeditious phrases, like you say. But “excuse me” shifts the emphasis from “you are putting me out by being in my way” to “i am putting you out by asking you to move for me”.
Its is equally as likely that I might not get out of your way when you say “coming through” as you might not get out of my way when I say “excuse me”. This says nothing about one phrase being more speedy and pragmatic than the other. They are both equally pragmatic, but they carry different connotations.
Faust points out that that connotation can be lost. But I don’t think that that means that there wasn’t that connotation to begin with, and I think its important to preserve that connotation, because I think it makes society more pleasant.
Hmm, we relate to the same words in different ways. Anyways, it’s all in the intention, which is what comes through in the concrete situation anyways. I agree with you that politeness and manners are important.
I may have been just a little obscure in my first post. It has always bothered me that people will not closley study (for hours, if need be) my more aphoristic posts for the meaning hidden within.
Much american politesse is drawn from the british. While the brits may have made adjustments as their own class system changes, most american versions of british manners remained static until roughly WWII. But generations cling to their customs, and those customs change only slowly.
I don’t want to give here a Compleat Hisorie of Customs and Mores of the American Colonies, but it might be instructive to watch some English costume dramas to see just how ridiculous the original context of what passes for good manners (to some) was.
If you agree with me that politeness and manners are important, then why do you relate to the phrase “excuse me” differently? Do you really think that it doesn’t carry an important connotation separate from “coming through” that better expresses the spirit of politeness? If not, I would like to refer you back to my comment about the way that “excuse me” shifts the emphasis.
Well to me “excuse me” means somebody has gotten my attention and is about to say something to me. If someone says “coming through” behind me I know immediately what it is they want.
With all due respect, I don’t see how any amount of close study of your original post in this thread could result in any interpretation deeper than that you were reacting against what you perceived as an overly pessimistic worldview. (I admit that you were justified in this).
Fair enough, but I do think that the phrase “excuse me” carries an important connotation - that of shifting the emphasis of who is putting who out. An honest question: Do you think the “ridiculous … context of what passes for good manners” in its English origin eliminates the value of so-called polite behavior?
Ah, okay, this is a better explanation. You are right that “excuse me” can also be meant to merely get somebody’s attention, while “coming through” just means that somebody wants to get by. From this perspective, “coming through” does seem more expeditious. Suppose what we care about is being expeditious, and it doesn’t matter to us whether we are formally polite to each other; in this case you are entirely correct that we should say “coming through” instead of “excuse me”. But it is my opinion that this is the incorrect ranking of value in this situation. I don’t think that it is so unclear which meaning of “excuse me” is being used that “coming through” is significantly more expeditious. And I think that we should care about being formally polite - and you seemed to agree with me. Because of this, I think it is important to choose to say “excuse me” instead of “coming through” - and that we should be mindful of conserving the connotations present.
Tone of voice and body language are at least as important as, if not more important, than formality. But I think the ideal is to combine all three elements.
Ah, sorry, I suppose I should have picked up on that. It isn’t always easy to do so on the internet.
If it doesn’t carry an important connotation, then there is nothing to fuss about. But I think that it does carry an important connotation. The fact that it is falling out of usage is probably the results of that connotation being lost. It may be the case that these types of connotations will always be lost in the case of “expeditious phrases”. If that is the case, then it seems as though it really doesn’t matter which one you use. Why bother making a point of saying “excuse me” if the connotation is doomed to be lost? But I am not convinced that it is so doomed, and I’m not willing to give up the battle so easily. I think its possible to conserve the connotations, and I think we should make a point of doing so. I think its valuable, because I honestly think formal politeness makes society better.
Oops! I was having a serious gas attack, (or heart attack, I’m not sure which) and misread your post.
I think your premise is incorrect, though. There have always, I think, been those who value politeness, and those who don’t.
But I also think that pretending that some idiot who is just taking up space is the one put upon when someone else tries to get past them is not helpful.
You know, like the people who won’t commit to a line at the fast food joint (the source of my malady, I think). Or who, for whatever reason, stand twenty feet behing the person in front of them. (Are they in line, or not?)
That said, I tend to use the polite phrase. But my eyes say “You’re dead weight, and should actually be dead”.
I think also that there is a such a thing as informal politeness. “Coming through”, rendered correctly, seems just as polite to me.
