People who claim to prove/disprove God's exsistence

Such people generally just annoy me. I mean, you can provide evidence for sure, (though whether it trully qualifies as ‘evidence’ can be debated…) but how the hell could we prove/disprove a being/beings on another plain of exsistence totally differant and unobservable from our own? When it comes right down to it, whether you believe in God(s) or not relies on a matter of faith, either on faith it exsists, or faith it doesn’t. Solid facts can’t create that faith, but it comes rather from your own personal feelings about what God should be and his presense/absence.

So there.

Amen.

W.C.

we can disprove (mostly) by showing that god is an incoherent idea, or is incoherent with the observable universe. Or simply maintain a default state of nonbelief due to lack of evidence (this is the opposite of faith; you cant have faith in the lack of something).

we can prove in lots of ways, mostly showing that the arrangement of the universe or life suggests intelligence, that god’s nature entails existence, etc.

To dismiss these all these (occasionally quite complex) arguments as powerless without considering them is rubbish.
Nicholas Everitt in Non-existence of God makes the following complaints about this line of thinking (summarised).

a. It’s based on faith which is incompatible to reason.
Saying this is the same as saying “it is based on nothing”. If there were some supernatural reasons for believing in God, then it would be reasonable to take account of them. If faith and reason are incompatible then this approach leaves the theist open to the very obvious complaint, “then how do you choose which god to worship if they’re all equally based on nothing?”. Faith must arise from somewhere in any case.

b. There are no reasons.
This is simply false. All the official and secondary sources list lots and lots of reasons, religious and areligious texts alike.

c. Reasons are inconclusive.
This is ludicrous. Given the sheer number of arguments from both sides from our brightest minds, it is silly to say that none of them have any force without even considering them.

d. Belief in God can be explained through social causes.
This may be the case, but that just determines whether or not the bulk of people SHOULD believe in God, not whether there are good reasons to think God actually exists.

No look, both the arguments for and against God’s exsistence are FEELINGS about the universe, not facts. For instance, in purely logical terms, I am an agnostic. But in the way I feel about humanity and its ability to rise to a higher power/calling/whatever I am a theist. My point is that there is NO absolute proof that he exsists or doesn’t, and frankly there’s alot of evidence on both sides.

TheQuestion,

I agree that arguments about the existence of god are based on feelings about the universe and not facts. But so is everything else that we argue about the way things are. And once you realize that, you can reconsider the arguments for god’s existence based on how they make you feel rather than on how ironclad logical the proofs are. Nothing worthwhile is completely logical.

Not at all, in my opinion. From my point of view, solid philosophy is rooted in fact, (they may be very abstract facts, often involving feelings, but seperate and dinstinct from them.)

Actually, something just struck me. Perhaps there are two philosophies, one based around solid facts and another, more poetical one based around one’s feelings. From the former we are observers and from the latter we are participators…

It’s not possible to logically prove the non-existance of God. But it is pretty easy to prove that theism is an unreasonable position. It’s unreasonable but not irrational. There is no good reason to let faith enter into it.

It’s never possible for humans to grasp God’s existence, unless God Himself reveals to us that He is God.

If the revelation is ignored, then there’s no point in arguing about the possibilty of God’s existence.

Dear oreso,

You say :

Could you, please, proove me that someting exist without any kind of faith ? According to Popper, it’s just impossible… If you can do better, I am interested…

Marc

Ah! There’s where you went wrong. :stuck_out_tongue: :smiley: :slight_smile:

Dear MRM etc.,

Explain, I am trully interested… If you’re with loosing time with me…

Marc

marc, as for something existing without faith, I’m not all that familiar with Popper, but it seems as if you are abusing him by bringing up faith at all. Besides which, my point which you quoted is not a position i hold, but a position that is often held by others.

Righty, with that out the way i can give you a layman’s answer. :slight_smile:
Dispute at your leisure.

  1. To define ‘faith’ I’m going with, “to believe a state of affairs independant of and despite evidence.”

  2. Existence is not something decided by the object, but by an observation. So, its the observer who experiences the existence of the object, and any observation at all is evidence for the existence of something, though of course you can be mistaken as to its nature by misinterpreting your perception.

  3. You say ‘prove’, but i think you are abusing the term. I dont subscribe that all knowledge requires a completely unnassailable foundation; much like Popper, i think that the best we can do is say that we have the best explanation available.

As this process is completely dependant on the evidence as it is perceived, I fail to see how you can disregard it when determining the existence of something, but what i think you have done is:
Popper says the evidence can never prove something beyond all doubt.
Thus, faith is required.

While i say:
Popper says the evidence can never prove something beyond all doubt.
Thus, proving beyond all doubt is a silly idea.

Oreso,

No, I was thinking of “objective knowledge”, where Popper says - roughly - there is no way you can prove idealism or realism, i.e. that something exist at all, and that everything is not just illusion. He said, if someone does not believe that sun exists… let just him go and touch it… it’ll be too late when he’ll “discover”. But there is no “proof” of the universe objectivity.
Anyway, the two alternatives statements you propose are also interesting and - indeed - I recognize myself in the firt one : I am an easy-going guy ;=).

if those are the only options, then i reject the question. I think you (or Popper) are setting a straw man of idealism here though.

By my reckoning an Idealist would say:
Its undeniable that im experiencing a sun-like-object, and so if i deny the existence of a sun independant of my experience, thats not to say i dont believe the sun-like-object in my experience will burn me, only that the experience-dependant-sun-like-object cannot be related to an experience-independant-sun.

In other words, guessing the properties of something is an entirely different action to guessing the existence of something. Existence is not a predicate.

Looking at the wikipedia Popper page, I cant say I’m too fond of this idea of objective knowledge. Sounds kinda hifallutin to me, but I’ll look into it proper, or you can explain some more if you like.

Oreso,

Oh ! I am no philosopher, I am one of those damn scientists… I red Popper by accident and liked it, but I am not able to explain much more (it goes back to a couple of years, now, and I didn’t try to dig much more : I have to many objective piece of metals to work on).
Anyway, I think I tend to be a Realist, it’s the simpler attitude, after all, and it has worked fine for me untill today…

Marc

thats odd, depending on your branch of science of course.

realism is no simpler, it just happens to be popular.
For physicists, i have the understanding that believing in something independant of observation is kinda out of fashion since Shroedinger and Einstein. I can explain why if you like. :slight_smile:

Oreso,

Try to explain… but I am very down to earth kind of scientist : materials science… I can’t imagine that my cristals change their shape when I don’t look at them, or that disclocations appear just for the pleasure of my electronic eyes… Somewhere along the road, decoherency will save me, I guess… ?

alrighty, try this. Ill attempt to convert you to the celestial light of idealism rather than the dark brown earthy slump of nieve realism. Down to earth indeed. :slight_smile:

when you look at the universe through more refined instruments than your eyes, you see it as completely different as you are recording properties completely incompatible with the senses you were born with.

This cannot be because the universe has changed significantly in the time it takes to turn the machine on, but because one set of properties is dependant on the other. But which ones?

Is a table actually red, or is it actually just emitting photons of a particular wavelength? If you are a realist, which set of properties is more real?

If you accept the problem above, you must ask, how do you know you have access to the properties that actually make up the universe? Maybe its not photon wavelength or redness that matters, but something entirely different which causes both those phenomena, and maybe that thing which is entirely different is unknowable.

Realism is the assumption that our experience is related to something independant of that experience in a “like” way. This thing which is independant cannot be talked about (if it could, then it wouldnt be independant now would it?). Also, if redness and photon wavelength are related, but not in a “like” way (they are completely different in form) then why would this independant universe and our perception be related in a “like” way? Why assume the universe is as you perceive it to be when scientific evidence already shows it isnt quite so simple?

There are many more problems closely linked with physics, but they’ll take more time to explain (look up the Heisenburg uncertainty principle for instance).

The idealist says, this situation is silly. There is experience, and we shouldnt even bother to consider what lies beyond it because the whole idea is rubbish. The universe and our experience are one and the same thing.
Would redness exist if there was nothing to see it? Id say no, as redness is a phenomena ONLY encountered in direct experience.
What about photon wavelength if the photon never interact with a another particle? Id say no, as photon wavelength is a phenomena ONLY encountered in indirect experience of particle interaction.

When you stop looking at a crystal, you still experience it (as does everything within a radius expanding at the speed of light) but indirectly though its effect on other things.
The more effect it has on your experience, the sharper it is determined and the more you can know about it, but there is no sense in which you can ever “experience” an object completely. This being the case, why asume that the object has ‘knowledge’ independant of your knowing it?

Gah, getting tired. :slight_smile:
Ask for clarification for the more incoherant parts if you like, or Im sure someone else will deconstruct. Ill try and answer tomorrow.

In summary:
Idealism: All that is encountered in experience exists. Nothing else exists.

Realism: Lots of stuff exists (no idea what though), but some of it is unknowable, some of it can only be inferred, some of it can be directly experienced, some of it is necessarily the case, some of it is a combination of the above.

Cheers!

Oreso,

Yes, well… I am still realist… I do think matter is not conitnuum, but made out of small stuff called atoms, even if I can’t seem them directly… The idea that I can not know everything about matter and reality is not particularly frightening : it’s also the case with people : I can’t know everything about someone, which does not mean that he does not feel anything. On the other side, there are obviously some parts of myself I don’t know perfectly either… So I really don’t see the point to consider that, in reality, the only stuff that exist are the one we “experience”, in a way or another… Acttually, I think that point does not make much sense… or does-it ?

Marc

Q, generally God is proven in considering His attributes as necessitated by a contingent world. (The world is the evidence.)

I recommend you read here, and then we will have a foundation for discussion: newadvent.org/summa/100200.htm

Kierkegaard speaks of the need for philosophy to be subjective. May I suggest our poetic philosophising should be based on our objective philosophising?

As ILP’s self-proclaimed theist, I would like to hear this proof that theism is “unreasonable” but not “irrational”…whatever that apparent dichotomy means.

kvn_m, I think you’re right on that.

marc, lauds from the realist cheering section.

,
mrn