Perceived Primacy of Western Spirituality et al

I posted the following in another OP a couple of hours ago.

[b][i]"My … My … My … the sense of Western superiority … exceptionalism … God’s chosen people … is alive and well this morning.Seems to me this sense of superiority (Western) has prevailed for more than 2 millenium … virtually unthreatened until about 100 years ago when the Bolshevik revolution was hijacked and the fire of Communism took hold. Exacerbated by Mao Zedong’s victory October 1, 1949.

Since the “conflict” rages on … one might assume the threat is real eh ???"[/i][/b]

Is this a topic worthy of discussion/debate/argument?

Given the most popular best selling book in Russia is by a Russian Orthodox monk, no. The oldest Christian churches have already embraced openly eastern practices and philosophies that don’t conflict with Christ’s message, reasoning we did it with Platonism, Stoicism, Cynicism, Aristotelian and Neo-Platonic philosophy.

Catholic church has ashrams, Eastern Orthodox investigate Taoism openly, and gave had a order of meditative ascetics every match of Zen monks for a thousand years. This is to be expected. Question is, how adaptable is eastern religion. Swami Vivekananda gave a formula for combining the two, but how successful has it been? Tibetian Buddhism still absorbs Buddhist works discovered in India, but how likely are they to adopt western positions? Japanese and Chinese have temples all over America, but outside if quoting Whitehead and Wittgenstein, how much are they willing to adopt? Are they nearly as pioneering? In India, they bombed Bodi Gaya last year, Sri Lanka is torn on religious lines, Chinese government is desperately trying to stem growth of Christianity (more Christians than Communist party members now in China)… I really don’t think Asia is on the verge of a spiritual awakening, probably just more violence and division.

Ferguson … I’ve read a few of your posts … only a few. Nonetheless, I have the impression you are a walking encyclopedia with a short fuse.

Respecting your considerable investment of time and energy to load all this data into your prodigious memory, I will make an extra effort to avoid needlessly lighting your fuse. For clarification … I would like to ask 2 questions.

  1. Is it correct to interpret your above comment as follows … paraphrasing … a spiritual awakening in Asia is a prerequisite to the worldwide harmony/unity Swami Vivekananda spent much of his short adult life promoting?

  2. You were silent … at least I didn’t get a clear indication of your views vis a vis the current status of the notion of spiritual awakening in the West. Are you willing to elaborate on this point?

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/et_al.

What do you mean by “et al” in the heading of this thread? :confused:

oops!

I have the audacity to ask others for additional clarity and here I am guilty of the clumsy use of a legal term outside its’ conventional intention. I apologize.

Here’s my intention … I’m inclined to believe all human activity follows from the notion of ‘spirituality’ … the premise of the title suggesting … primacy in spirituality infers primacy in all other matters.

Does this help?

I mostly recall vol. 8 of Vivekananda’s works, as it was the first I bought, so had it the longest.

If I recall properly, he paralleled aspects (prior to Jung) of a recognition India had more introspective individualist traits to religious experience, while the west was more communal.

Europe is currently in the process of a reset, it’s earlier Protestant efforts over the last 500 years have failed, but they remail committed to a socialist outlook. They claim to be spiritualist and interested in eastern religion, but it hasn’t taken firm root anywhere. Hawaii is filled half with Buddhist temples, half Christian churches, it’s evidence the two have taken root there, but neither in Europe… what Europe does has is a mass migration of Islamic and African Evangelicals. They will take root, and push the atheists out… as we see in Russia and China currently, Athiesm doesn’t long last once it loses it’s governmental backing, and rapidly loses ground as the population becomes more educated and becomes increasingly aware of competing theories not backed by the state. China has taken a more nationalistic approach, having given up on enforcing atheism Marxist style, instead encouraging any older Chinese religion in the place of Christianity, as the party doesn’t feel nearly as threatened by Taoism, Confucian or Buddhism as it does by Christianity and Islam. Christianity is okay as long as it doesn’t gain super majorities in the cities… which is happening in places, Islam is okay as long as it is pacified and largely ignorant of world wide Islamic practices (Islam in China significantly devolved over time in China since it’s original introduction).

Atheism is at best a abberation, it’s enforced by the failure of enforcing state religions. When the state religion dies, it’s not seen as a issue as long as the state is stable, no external threat, the mores seem stable, and economy is stable with growth at moderate gains. Once this is set off balanced, the whole house of cards is set off balanced. We’ve seen this equivelency pop up repeatedly in religion through history.

US has had the advantage of free markets coinciding for a few centuries with religious freedoms, so the large religious groups we have are here by virtue of popular concent, not state enforcement. There wasn’t a significant battle between science and religion like in Europe, or scientific theories battling it out to the death like under Stalin and Krushev. Perestroika wouldn’t collapse our investigations or our faith save on issues. Its more identity and willingness to show up at church in a modern media era, where everyone has Facebook in their pocket.

I think Swami Vivekananda would be the first to point out the communal, Christian west would be the first to rebound out of this technological hurdle, as the internet encourages interconnectivdness. Our churches and monasteries in the old churches continue to grow rapidly, I know a few monasteries about to open are are successfully fund raising. We produce a lot of missionaries, internally and overseas, and the churches we build emulate us. Every time I buy something on Amazon.com, The Angles of East Africa get a donation (The Machine Gun Preacher from Circleville, Pa runs it in Africa, when he ain’t preaching, he is killing. When I saw his movie, I said damn, this guy needs more ammo, so signed up for his charity).

I do see some evidence in Asia of Unitarian proclivity, especially in Vietnam… Baha’i doing okay world round. Its rare that I see a intellectual in India try to match western outlooks in how we present ourselves. I’ll see if I can dig up a email in a bit I recall of a impressive attempt.

And I usually go very easy in the religious forum, as I don’t like to enforce my views, and most views here tend to be rather wacky. Half the website abscribes to Dionysian beliefs, and the fucked up thing is… nobody knows anything about that cult here on this forum save what Nietzsche told them, so I gotta hold my breathe usually to keep from bursting out laughing.

It seems like most spiritualities are considered primary by their followers.
Hindus will fight Muslims. Buddhists go to war.
You fall in love with the models and metaphors. Walking around thinking I could just as well be doing
what those guys are doing in their temple, grove, church…
and the gleam in your eye dulls. Not that I am saying it is OK, I set that aside.
A Buddhist is likely to think a Christian is a bit confused about Jesus, however much that Buddhist likes a few of the things Jesus said, if he knows them.
A Confucian disagrees about the fundamental nature of humans that Christians have. (and by the way, the Confucians were, at least early on, pantheists, IOW pretty much panspychists, which does not sit well with the transcendental Western religions).

If you religion has basic fundamental disagreements with another religion or spirituality, you are going to think your ontology or whatever is superior, more right, correct, not lacking or wrong like theirs is.

Not that this is restricted to religons and spiritualities. Physicalists are like this also, iow scientists and their groupies.

I thought this was a good attempt at rationalizing both western religion and modern philosophy toe to toe on eastern standards. I’m not seeing a whole lot of this, and have my fingers in many, many pies. I was also very active in international pen pal groups looking for foreign philosophy pen pals. Asia has been rather the weakest link, stagnant. It is still religious, just not thinking anymore. They get really offended when their religion comes over and becomes westernized, and twice as bad when we start sending people back to the “holy lands” in the east. Its a two way culture shock, and Christianity doesn’t tolerate this. It more or less enforces inclusivity 99% of the time when setting up a community. So do Baha’i (on a muninciple level, based on 10, with elected hierarchies all the way to the top), Muslims sorta… they claim yo, but there are obvious racial rifts. Arabs and Blacks really don’t get along, despite the propaganda of unity andvracial blindness.

Angelican Christians best at closing the rift, Catholic and Orthodox try to adapt by making adjustments to local needs, such as national churches or rites, local saints ASAP on the flimsiest of evidence, tolerating unofficial folk saints, etc. They do bring a mass of ecumunical educational structure and medical access, as well as social concepts evangelicals can’t easily communicate on short missionary tours, or are even aware of the need to do so.

I think China will be the first to force a radical merger. We are starting to see biases against the Tibetian Buddhists leave Communist circles… it was Tibetian Lamas who more or less ran Buddhism in China under the last empire, and the Chinese hated their authority. After the Communist took over, they invaded Tibet and took a certain level of revenge. Its starting to lighten up on tibetian affiliation to practices, but still demonizes the Dalai Lama and his Brother. I think Christianity likewise will be tolerated once the party realizes it has the highest population of any country of Christians on the planet, and it has missionaries in Africa and vice versa, giving it hugh diplomatic and economic clout, much higher than it’s banking monopoly and construction companies can pull off alone. It would be something to be prideful of.

India… it’s just gonna suck for a while. Population is narrow minded, set in it’s ways, still embraces Marxism, and sucks at implementing it. Caste system has been abolished, still in force in too many areas. The Muslim-Hindu divide still drives everything, and the nationalist reply is it’s not a issue internally, just externally, and they give some Marxist excuse for economic motivations. Its why India has so many insurgencies and wars. Its a powder keg in perpetual denial. They are a highly intolerant people, always ready to kill one another.

Turkey and Iran have another set of issues, won’t get into that here.

wow!

This OP has sprouted with the odour of an earnest(nice word Phyllo) discussion, debate, argument … versus … the all too common … in my view … dart games with egos as the targets.

Moreno … your comment … to me … feels like a manifestation of our innate survival instinct … if one permits our attachment to an ideology as a basic human need like air, food,water, shelter and so on

Ferguson … lots of “food for thought” … I need time to digest some of it.

Two notions that seem to stand out on first reading were “violence” and “innocence”

My mind immediately made a connection to the notions “yang” and “yin” respectively. Hmmm

Ying and Yang dualism didn’t evolve till rather late, it was originally a psychological theory, I had some 9th century fascimilies with translations on the subject, but gave it to a Taoist in Hawaii. You should be looking into Proto-Daoist thinkers before Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu. They we’re the intellectuals who pioneered the concepts the best, and it’s easier for a Westerner to grasp with parallels in our tradition.

And don’t become scared when egoism, conflict, scrutiny and skepticism arises in religion, or even the critique of religion, it’s natural, and belongs as it’s a inevitability of how the mind us hardwired, the intellectual thought of any long lasting movement must drift into the challenging horizons of it’s thought eventually. Doesn’t mean synchrotism, doesn’t mean impurity, just means the natural range of differing personality types born into every religious movement will ask specialized questions, and it’s best intellectuals will respond intuitively and logically over time. Parallels will occur, but not necessarily sapping at the core vitality of the original system.

Moreno is a pagan, his stance was as open, tolerant, and liberal as can be expected. Monotheism has been threatening to them in their literature and rhetoric since the 19th Century, so expect defensiveness. Outside of being a incoherent dirty commie bastard incapable of delivering a sober, he isnt too bad of a guy… and thats the best compliment Ive ever delivered to anyone before on this site.

Expect everything to become egotistical, heated, etc… it’s a philosophy site, and the history of religious debate has never exactly been without it, anywhere, prior, so don’t be expecting high expectations of ascetic harmony on this site, or any, or in your real walking life. Its unrealistic and doesn’t prepare you for the inevitable experiences you’ll be bound to face.

Here, a better example of a eastern source not intimidated, but rather embracing, of the western philosophical tradition:

Kishido

amazon.com/KISHIDO-First-Last/dp/1890772313

More emerging thoughts from your posts …

I’m thrilled to read your comment … “he paralleled aspects(prior to Jung)”

For me it refutes the notion of “God’s chosen people”

Much like the almost concurrent entry into humanity of Siddhartha Gautarma, Lao Tsu, Confucius, Socrates, Plato, Isaiah … with considerable overlap … in my view … in their world views.

Moreno here are some second thoughts on my above reaction to your post.

Perhaps ideology(s) are simply a bonding agent that enables social bonding among humans … which seems to be a primal need.

Here is a concrete experience with the corresponding emerging thoughts … about 20 years old now … seems some thoughts have a rather long gestation period … yet … perhaps like red wine … they improve with age.

[i]The specific experience that is now ‘top of mind’ was the day I lie on my bed in the Maples Inn … staring at the wall. Looking at four walls is a common pass time for lonely people … seems I was no exception.

This wall was no ordinary wall … it was not painted drywall … bland and empty. This wall was painted bricks … the large ones … 8" by 14". The wall served to divide the rooms and support the structure at the same time. Seems the owner was content not to ‘dress up’ the cement block supporting wall with drywall … good thing … or I would not have had the contemplation I am about to share!

1,000’s of years ago man learned that if you stack stones in a staggered pattern … the result is a strong and sturdy wall … capable of holding up tremendous loads … the walled cities of Europe and the middle east … Jerusalem. In times past they didn’t use mortar to cement a bond between the stones … a tight fit was all they used and 1,000’s of years ago the ‘stone arch’ was discovered … by placing stones in a certain pattern … each stone pressing against its’ neighbors. They built an arch which was used to join two walls … and soon large and complex buildings … Parthenon … Greek Temples etc

Back to the wall in my room at the Maple’s Inn … as I looked at the cement blocks … neatly piled in a staggered pattern … and evenly bonded to each other with mortar. It occurred to me that this same structure symbolizes ‘civilization’ with each cement block representing an individual … the mortar symbolizes the bond that holds individuals together in a ‘collective’ … a tribe … a clan … a village … a family … a culture … a society etc

The strength of the bond manifests the strength of the unity of the tribe … clan … culture. A wonderful example is the 12 tribes of Judaism … and equally impressive are the local tribes … clans of Inuit. The Inuit camp or village was never more than an ‘extended’ family and seems as they roamed around members of one clan would be given in marriage to members of another clan and so on and so on … avoiding the obvious threat of ‘in-breeding’ … amazing … profound … wow!! Contrast this with 'marriage used as a ‘tool’ to gain more property and consolidate power! … the ancient … and perhaps still current custom.

Back to the ‘bond’ mentioned above … as I stared at the wall and contemplated this analogy … I thought of the bond as ‘love’ … when ‘love’ between individuals … first in a single family … and simultaneously … among families who share a common bond … eg a tribe … as long as this bond …‘love’ remains strong the ‘collectives’ remain strong … seems it is directly proportional. The ‘bond’ …‘love’ … is intangible … the alchemist gold … what is the recipe for a solid bond …‘love’ … a mortar that will not disintegrate … crack …erode.

Seems to me if we could measure the 'holding strength’ or power of the ‘bond’ between individuals today … be it individuals within a family … among families … within a village … among villages within a province etc. We would find that the strength has diminished profoundly … corroded … disintegrated … melted … whatever!!

[/i]

I would be hesitant to abscribe a deep lineage in high antiquity to this, I’ve been systematically launching counter strikes of the Four Hoursemen, such as Dennent, who abscribe to a evolutionary ear of sages in antiquity during “The Axial Age”, nothing really follows their timetable… their theory is crap, a hiccup left over from the Roman/Byzantine philosopher Psellos dating the Chaldean Oracles (a late Neo-Platomist text) to a remote antiquity, then the later Roman philosopher Plethon after his conversion to Paganism had a very corrupt manuscript of it, and thought Zoroaster of all people wrote it…

Its now to the point esoteric pagans claim their secret knowledge comes from the most remote hidden points of Antiquity, passed from teacher to disciple, which isn’t true… we found enough Cuneiform and Papyrus texts to know ancient wisdom texts were not structured after the Golden Dawn crap. That stuff dates later… old, but not THAT old.

Read “The Chaldean Oracles Of Zoroaster, Hekate’s Couch, And Platonic Orientalism in Psellos and Plethon” by Dylan Burns, it’s 22 pages long, uses Martin Buber’s Existentialist theories for narrating his account of the “exotic other”.

I more or less attribute the speed and organization of philosophy due to the urbanization process that kicked in around 4000 BC, having fortified cities force on humans hundreds of bizarre paradoxes purely nomadic, uncivilized people don’t have to logically think through… such as water management, sewage removal, defense, taxation, market on supply and demand issues, constructing treasuries, creation and preservation of technology, architecture, writing, ect.

A lot of variability is possible, but the instinct to not just come together, but also stay is from the pleasures of economic advantages and fear of external threats, in going it alone. Eventually, this delineated most civilized societies to push philosophers into directions of trying to rationalize their needs in novel ways. In a trinitarian concept, Id say it’s the Holy Ghost, but I’m not much of a theologian. You can attribute this all to a lot of causal influences, but mostly tied to city-state development, and expansion.

Yeah … I like Moreno too … IMO … he likes to drive from the back of the bus … Wu Wei ??

Yeah again … the challenge(s) is all mine … I’m one of those hyper-sensitive types

sounds like a good read … can’t get at it from here … no kindle :frowning:

Ferguson … you think and write like Bugs Bunny … my speed is more like that of a snail … need time to digest

Interesting perspective … if I understand you correctly, you’re suggesting hedonism is more innate than the need to belong. ??

No, hendonism is not more innate. The need to get along or be alone is controlled by rewards and punishments, we have multiple areas of the mind that govern this. For me, it gets painful if I’m around people too much but few would say a solitary guy on a walk or studying is a hendonist.

Hendonist, they typically aim at maximizing the pleasure while minimizing pain, without long term betterment or considerations beyond this.

Logic operations under a single expectation, that it will cease once satiated. Its why we’re not one thought, one mindset, obsessive compulsion extremists from birth to death. Different aspects of mind can take over at any time, and we learn to accept these changes. Its part nature, part nurture.

Hendonists want to enforce a continuation if certain preferred, highlighted experiences. A month long orgasm would be the ideal.

But not all pleasure seeking is hendonist, in fact, many philosophies similar to hendonism frown upon such extremes, on pragmatic and practical grounds. Its a anti-ascetic philosophy. But since we are all wired to be pleasure seekers, it’s argueable we are all hendonists, or selfish… but at the same time it can be argued that argument is inherently selfless and altruistic, as no pleasure or gain is often expected from such advice… obviously you can dance all over the place with these arguments, which is fine, cause no single human has conscious control over ever pleasure and pain center in the mind, and some will always be in the unconscious of each person… just some people’s personality types overlap and don’t cover each other, so we have different states of awareness. Bishop Berkeley has a stable, well documented personality type, where the things he said makes sense, but it comes off as gibberish to someone like me on a intuitive level, from my own experiences… but many agree with him. Just how life is, we all specialize brainwise differently, and so all have somewhat different unconscious functions.

And I believe if you just Google that text, you’ll find it, I see a few links, but my data has already been garnished this month on my phone, and is taking too long to upload.

I’m quickly approaching information overload … I really do have an aversion to detail :slight_smile:

Read some Berkeley stuff … certainly all gibberish to me … not being schooled in philosophy.

A few words popped off the page/screen

  1. The word “Spirit”. I was reminded of St Augustine’s conversion. As I understand it his acceptance that ‘spirit’ has substance was a significant factor … not substance as associated with matter … yet substance all the same. Seems ‘spirit’ influences our mind … on occasion taking over control of some of our mental processes … yet we are unable to know or influence spirit.

  2. Holy Ghost … I understand the root of the word ‘holy’ is ‘good’ and the word ‘ghost’ in some ways is a synonym for the word ‘spirit’. The Catholic church has replaced the word ‘ghost’ with ‘spirit’ in its rituals and doctrine. Perhaps the good spirit … an arm of “Higher Consciousness” has provided stuff like hedonism, need to belong, survival instinct and so on as devices to enable human beings to climb the ladder to Higher Consciousness across time and space. The ritual of baptism in the Catholic church is viewed by some as an almost useless practice … the biggy is the baptism in the Holy Spirit and in fire. I think it’s the fire one that sends us into a dancing frenzy. :slight_smile:

I like Carol Stuhhmueller’s comments on Spirit …
How do we know when the Spirit is speaking to us? Two rules … First, the thought you surface at that moment can’t come from a process of reasoning. It has to burst into your mind like an insight. Second, if you carry out what the thought demands, it’ll cost you big time. The cost is almost always the element which stops us from carrying out the Spirit’s wishes. We simply don’t want to be that “disturbed.”

  1. I’m amused at how the name Leibniz keeps popping up in some of my random readings.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_ … de_Chardin

Yeah, you should probably look into him. He was a theologian who dealt with that, I wouldn’t necessarily say the holy ghost was all survival instinct, cause we have martyrs. Nor was it hendonism, cause… we have martyrs.

It isn’t likely to be a purely cognitive phenomena either, or even phenomena for that matter. Its supposed to be something akin to a identifiable behavior undivided from the overall substance of God.

But the exactitude is all over the place, from a hip hopping spirit to a Neoplatonic Third Baseman telling everyone when to run for the home plate.

Some classical branches of Christianity take a different, non trimitarian take, and they have a legitimate priesthood too, so I’m unwilling to take a stand on 3rd and 4th century terminology for the nature’s of Christ, or even really care to know really. I don’t even know my own nature, hard to guess God’s.