St. Augustine was a Neo-Platonist Christian, who followed his spiritual father St. Ambrose, who was likewise a Neo-Platonist Christian Philosopher. The reason why so many Christians were Neo-Platonists, is because the Pagan Neoplatonists took heavily after Numenius of Apamea, what we call a “Neo-Pythagorean” who was likewise heavily influenced by Jusiasm and Christianity… so Pagan and Christian philosophers knew one another’s arguments and theologies, and possessed some (*only some) similarities.
In regards to Augustine, many don’t like him in the Catholic church, and I can’t say yes or no regarding materiality of the soul, this contradicts aspects of what I know of Numenius of Apamea, his opinion how the soul rose to heaven ratifying itself of mundane elements step by step… I’ve never gotten enough fragments of his work to assertain the whole system, so can’t say yeah or nay in regards to what they believed. I know the Greek Orthodox “mostly” still lean in this direction, but at least one Bishop has looked into it, realizing it wasn’t a Christian belief, but he got shot down as a schismatist, so despite being technically 100% correct, he has to go along with thus scheme. In the Catholic church, a lot of variations. In regards to how Augustine would of known it, it’s calked “Discursive Reasoning”, I just got a email on a call for doing papers on this… if you sit back quietly as Iambigious lectures me in the Zinnati History thread you’ll see over time (very long time, I’m taking it very slow) how it works. Here is the email, feel free to research it and write on it:
I wouldn’t write off baptism. Its a essential rite, dictated by Jesus and John the Baptist, as essential. If Catholics are rejecting baptism, then they are not Catholic.
Christianity’s sister religion, started by John the Baptist, the Mandeaens, baptize a few times a year. Hindus sorta go through baptisms every time the jump into a holy river, Muslims have special cleansing pools, the Assyrians had a form if baptism as well. If your going to be a "Christ"ian, you need to pay attention to Jesus, he wrote on the importance of it, it was central to his ministry. I have looked into theories regarding its origins, may very well stretch back to Thales, or even Ur. Its important to thebrekigion, so you do it, if you dont grasp it, take it as a mystery. If you dont want to be a christian, you dont have to do it, nobody is going to force you to do it. Byt yeah, its a essential requirement.
An example… exorcisms, the rites are nothing more than the baptism rites. Thats it… I dont know where hollywood got off with the chicks running on ceilings, skin green, shooting peas out of their mouths, tgrowing priests across the room. Its just the baptismal rite. We do it to babies and people on their death beds, very safe as long as your not allergic to water.
Good point. I’ve seen this happen. Someone let 'the voice’in the door, given the power and flash of insight (or ‘insight’) it gave. In fact it involved sacrifice of various kinds and discipline and hardship to live up to the voice’s wishes. The guy told me about it and I said to him that I had to say the voice sounded rather brutal. He ignored me. Three months later, after following more and more of the ‘suggestions’ he was in near psychotic break. He came up and said I had been right. [I presented my concerns as skeptical about the voice, not certain]. He then got various diagonoses, but later decided it had been some kind of not kind external entity. He then went off both self-meds and psychiatric meds that he and they used to help him deal with the results of listening to the voice and managed to be OK.
Some would interpret it as a psychotic break coupled with physical interpretations of his ‘symptoms.’
Some would have a more spiritual explanation, in this case a negative one.
Either way, you have to be cautious listening to voices, even if they seem or are magical.
The tough thing is, you have to use your intuition, not the thinky mind, unless you are sure only good things can be amazing.
I would recommend a experienced spiritual father actually, over your intuition, cause you may just be experiencing a psychotic break and really need those meds.
Best place, if your a guy, to go to is Mt. Athos in Greece, they have a lot of experience in this, if your debating getting off your meds and want the spiritual route.
Christianity isn’t anti-medicine. Jesus was a healer, competed with other healing religions, but we’ve always put a emphasis on good health and reason. That thinking mind is a part of you too, and useful. Medicine may be very necessary, it’s a case by case basis… it’s not a competition of science vs religion, they can be quite compatible.
There are other places other than Mt. Athos of course, but that’s my best suggestion, as it’s the top monastic complex in all of Christianity, has been since the Roman era. The rite in and of itself is the baptism rite, it can be done anywhere, but they are skilled at spiritual guidance and listening you out too, gearing your needs.
I suppose that what you are saying here is what I felt was present in the OP. An oversimplification. A blaming finger. An attack. There is an us them in the OP. You wish to humble or defuse the dominance of Western philosophy and in relation to Eastern. It comes off as if Eastern and Western are the options. Certain traits are implicitly attributed to Western, but they seem to be in Eastern also. And Eastern and Western are not the options. So there is a Perceived choice and primacy of East/West, and anything else is not real or important.
This isn’t clear. Perhaps you mean something else. The post is gestural. I respond to what I think are assumptions that are problematic, to see.
Thank you Turd. I am dirty and certainly often incoherent. However I hate communism even more than modern neo-liberalism and my father was married to my mother. But it is true, I am incapable of delivering a sober.
My question is, is the OP attacking?
I probed as if it did and as if it was a false dichotomy, but I don’t know. Perhaps you could deliver a sober on that.
I agree, and if I may say so, one could say your Confucianism is showing. I mean that descriptively, not judgmentally either way.
Taking the analogy, it seems to me the bonds are stronger if they are not too linear, as you point out. Linear like the seating in school classrooms. Of course with humans we can get stability through much more complex patterns than, simply moving the next row so bricks are half a brick over. Traditional kinship set ups could be incredibly complicated and that doesn’t begin to account for more individual nuances. I see both left and right movements towards lining the human bricks up in ways that are less stable, but seem the definition of stable to those that like rigid lines and repetition. I am wary of lack of nuance from on high, however noble people think they are being.
To jump to the side, I am skeptical about the coming genetic modification technologies when they will be used on humans.
Certainly Western imperialism has seen any alternative as wrong per se. Being good at technical things, the West has seen technical solutions and technical problems and technical criteria justify the treatment of other cultures. I see parallels in the East, though there, in general, the pattern was a little less aimed at other nations than in the West, perhaps due to not so advanced technology. Perhaps due to Eastern thought, which tend to emphasize the long term more than the West. But still, aimed internally Eastern thought also does not deal well with alternatives. And we can see in the East how much conformism has been damaging.
The examples you cite point to the temporary … albeit beneficial … psychological effect of baptism with water. On the other hand … in my personal experience … the notion of “baptism by fire” is a much more continuous and long lasting experience … extending over many years … perhaps a lifetime.
I like St John of the Cross … in particular his book “Dark Night of the Soul” … I see reflections of ‘baptism by fire’ in his thoughts … maybe I’m only seeing what I want to see.
Agreed … in my experience, responding to ‘inner voices’ can indeed be dangerous.
I’ll share another personal experience … the time I first heard the word synchronicity … I still don’t really understand what it means.
This story starts at Kibbutz Erez in Israel … a few hundred metres from the Gaza border. I met a young Frenchman(30 ish) and we hung around together despite our age difference (I was 46 at the time) He didn’t speak any English … my elementary French conversational skills seemed adequate to support the mutual curiosity we shared.
After a few months on the kibbutz we headed for Medugorje (Bosnia Herzegovina) … my initiative and it came up unexpectedly. He got kicked off the train somewhere north of Greece … maybe Macedonia. As a French citizen he was not allowed to transit the country at the time. I continued on to Medugorje … another story.
Around 2 years later I found myself in Medugorje again … first 3 weeks of the visit were quite peaceful and enjoyable. Suddenly and unexpectedly a serious anxiety set in … serious restlessness … a feeling that I must get out of this place … now!
My problem … no money at the time. I ran here and there and everywhere looking for a way to get out. After several days I ended up getting a free bus ride to the airport in Split (Croatia) and from there a free flight to Lille France. (It was a package deal received in Medugorje)
I walked from the airport in Lille to the village where my French friend from the kibbutz lived … no prior knowledge that he lived near Lille. I eventually found him … in his coffin … he had committed suicide the day before or so of my arrival.
In reciting my story I left out lots of details.
When I returned to Guelph I shared my story with a Jesuit spiritual director ( a stranger to me at the time) He gave me a one word answer … synchronicity.
3 questions I wrestle with from time to time:
Was my French acquaintance trying to send me a message … telepathically … that I was unable to decode … and therefore unable to respond?
Was the highly unusual way in which I arrived at his coffin meant to tell me something?
Was it simply a weird experience with no lingering value?
Moreno … isn’t your gut reaction to the OP simply a typical Western psyche reaction. I get the same reaction from many of the responses to my posts … the responses being attacks on me or my thoughts. Fortunately … you have convinced me that my perception of … ‘attacks’ … are not always a true/complete reflection of the author’s intention.
I still don’t know either … I am happy to see the OP has achieved some momentum.
The Western axiom … shoot first ask questions later
Moreno … your post brings to mind images of a Spanish bull … you see red when I post some of my affinity for Chinese thought/philosophy … your anger boils and you charge at me.
Moreno … you seem blind … or at least certainly less attentive to the Western content in my posts.
Yesterday I wrote that a sample size of one is statistically insignificant … according to mathematicians.
This morning this feels counter intuitive. My understanding of statistical math may be whacky … I’m confident some readers will get my point.
For example … a single human experience that reflects absolute Truth would easily overturn an almost infinite number of human experiences that reflected only a degree of Truth … IOW partial Truth
The Gordian Knot is there is no way to know if any human experience reflects absolute Truth.
More Lao Tzu … paraphrasing … he who speaks of the Dao doesn’t know the Dao … he who knows the Dao can’t speak of it … it is simply impossible for a finite entity(human being) to emanate anything concerning the infinite.
My staring at the wall experience and the thoughts that popped into my head as result happened shortly after I was “forced off the grid” … “pushed off the treadmill of life” … “pushed out of the fast moving train of life” … plucked out of the “flock of humanity” … so to speak.
Before that I was too damn busy with everyday life I had no time to think about anything.
Shortly after my staring at the wall experience I had what might have been a “kundalini” experience … and shortly after that I went on a thrilling roller coaster ride.
