Philosophy As Water

What is the “shape of water?” Not the molecule, but the actual thing? The answer I’m implying is that it doesn’t have one, it takes on a shape that it must.

I think of philosophy as water. In a classroom, with desks and unedited comments from fleshy objects, philosophy becomes one thing,
In a book it becomes something else. A forum something else. A child’s head something else.

It’s possible that whether we like or dislike philosophy has more to do with the shape it happens to be taking on when we first encounter it.

I can already hear your wheels churning, finding a way to find the essence of philosophy, regardless of where it’s found, the one thing that makes it philosophy in all cases. A laudable goal and a sound I don’t find objectionable. but that’s not my real goal here with this post. There’s no doubt you can do it, but that’s not the goal. And the question, “what is the shape of water” is really not the question here, although it might make a fine one, somewhere else. You might be tempted to “it doesn’t have one,” or some other pithy comment, studied and designed to make me feel stupid for asking it. That’s sometimes a quality of the shape of philo when you encounter it in a forum.

What I’m feeling when I write this is sadness over the memory of first encountering philosophy in a group setting. It was slow and painful. The teacher (or usually TA) was wordy and pompous and slow. He wasn’t merely doing philosophy. He was very much into “being” a philosopher. And the students who raised their hands to comment, usually were equally slow, or one-sided, or comments were sophomoric. And the responses to the comments were tired and telegraphed to the point that I began to wonder why such little substance had to be stretched out into such a long thing, a long, 3 dimensional thing, a theater of the pathetic, a chunk of my day spent absorbing this water through a foolish thin and leaky receptacle.

But saddest of all is how I remained silent for years, assuming my comments would be equally stupid and equally judged by a judge as harsh as myself. Making myself a small a target as possible. Never to raise my hand, only to scowl silently as others did, attempting to get closer to truth. On the very rare occasion I raised my hand, going back even to high school or before, I recall getting pounced on, people not understanding my comment, usually one obnoxious guy who wanted to be smart would interrupt and put what I said down, and that would shut me up and make me boil inside. Gamer was never confrontational. Gamer 2004 was the result of not being confrontational, not speaking up, and terrified of being like the others, slow, boring, devoid of fire and relevance, devoid of at least a new or intriguing point.

Online you can put forth your points, all of them, you can edit and massage until you are almost sure you at least won’t be misunderstood. And if someone puts you down, you can avoid the awkwardness of having a body, a face, the evolution of shame or fear and proximity and peer pressure and rejection. You are just your ideas, and if you feel worried you can vanish, or retreat a million miles away into oblivion. Or you can tactically respond, take your time and make sure you are once again giving it your best, not merely on the spot and out of desperation.

So that’s philosophy in a forum.

I also like it in a young boy’s mind. Talking to a loving dad, or a friend, one on one. Sometimes it’s confrontational. Sometimes if you’re lucky, it’s seeking and loving. That’s the best shape of philosophy, the purest, the most nourishing…most quenching as water, most hydrating to a plant.

And there’s the shape of philosophy when you read about it alone. Pure concept and system, history lesson, logic concept, language game, but usually solipsistic and soundless. A song of the neurons read and played from a manuscript written long ago. A sad solo in the dark by candlelight, it can of course spark new questions, or you might marvel simply at the beauty of it, so it’s not a bad thing necessarily.

What is the best shape of philosophy for you?

It is water… Flexible, mobile, may take the shape of anything. Anything can be questioned. The farther you question the deeper in you can fall. Some may even drown.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAxOHPmITHI[/youtube]

^ Knew it was coming.

Yeah - I felt it very apposite for this thread. Can you blame me? :sunglasses:

No, I was thinking the same thing. xD

Thanks beavis, butthead. “Huh huh, he said ‘like water’”

Exactly why I never raised my hand!
Everything I said and all that’s heard is the word water, reminding the reader of the overplayed and over-respected Bruce lee trope.

Nothing in what I wrote even remotely talks about being like water, none of it is normative or preachy.

I never said philosophy is like water in a good way. It was just that it’s neutral, shapeless. Not shapeless in a way that rips off chuck Norris chest hair. Shapeless in a way that confuses me.

And where and how you do it defines it, existence precedes essence applies to philosophy itself.

Aw forget it. Wax off.

There is actually much to learn from Bruce Lee. The video wasn’t meant to be uncouth.

In ancient scriptures, water is the metaphor for “the issues of Man and mind”. Philosophy is that very same topic.
So your comparison is “spot on” with the ancients.

Erik, not sure who but i think someone said that before BL.

Beautiful_Ocean_Wave_Surfing_8.jpg

Profound - there you see the philosopher riding the wave of philosophy.

Ah, that image! No words.

This too.jpg

More philosophy at work.

philosophy.jpg

Many faces to philosophy

Arc,

I’m not sure, either — but it’s a nice quote, nonetheless; has a Nietzschean ring to it.

Anyways, water is an interesting philosophical topic that I never really ruminated on surprisingly. It could be viewed as the most primal force. Thales, the first philosopher, believed that everything was made of water. Life began in water ( " soup " ). It can nourish you, bathe you and…destroy you. You can pierce it, but it can pierce you right back. It is formless, shapeless - it adapts to whatever circumstance. We need it more than any other form of sustenance. Water is God.

HahaFreddie and praying? I wonder if he ever did. Would one such as himself succumb to prayer?
It sounds more like what any saint might utter.

Apparently, water is quite cognizant of itself and a gentle lover or a fierce enemy. It’s a mirror which we can reflect on, reflecting self back to us. I love water. lol It’s also like a crystal flowing ball.

That’s kind of a wimpy looking wave but look - it has the power to toss that monster dangling onto the end of it into the drink. But maybe not wimpy but hauntingly gruesome.

Ha! I don’t think Bruce was being literal in regards to the praying. The Nietzschean ring, I spoke of, was more about not being a coward in regards to facing the struggles of existence, but rather embracing them, facing them head-on with a holy YES, overcoming life’s difficulties.

Lmao^^^^

I love water myself. One of my favorite quotes is: " Still waters run deep ".

Erik

Maybe he didn’t mean pray. Maybe he was thinking in terms of “fight”.

Amor Fati? Can we embrace something while at the same time overcoming it? Wouldn’t saying NO to something be more appropriate for that moment?

Best not to do that. According to you, you can’t afford to what with your fasting and all.
But there was/is something hauntingly gruesome about that image.


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The ocean or the stars? They fight over me. lol I can swim in both. (me)

jacquesyvescousteau204406.jpg

I love that image you put in. I could be lost in there alone for days.
We become as one - the sea and I.

Arc wrote:

Yeah - I think he meant it more in terms of summoning up strength from one’s self and facing life bravely.

What I meant by " embracing life " is accepting that life IS difficult, full of obstacles. Once that is done, one can say a holy YES to life and push up the stream with courage and strength.

What do you mean by that? And are you being facetious about the wave, or am I missing something? lol

I have no doubt that they do, you being the gorgeous auburn beauty you are, looking like Pier Angeli. I’d fight till the death for you myself :wink:

I hope that you don’t despise your metaphor so quickly. It is a good one. I understand that your objective was to exemplify the many ways in which philosophy can reach someone, but I like to think of philosophy as water, too, and in this shape (as quoted), the shape of an individual search.
Like water, you thirst for it, and when you do find a source that is pure and fresh, you drink it up eagerly.
When you come upon it, it has the shape of whatever container brought it to you, but immediately as it enters you, it is shapeless and permeates through you, becoming eventually a part of you that is indistinguishable from your own cells, and that is the vehicle of all your activity.
And like water, it goes everywhere. It is in the air, and it flows under the ground, and it sips through the smallest cracks.
The water that you drink is the same water that allows life to all other living things and thus links you to them, just as the philosophy that you absorb into yourself should reflect the same truths that are valid for all other living things.
And like water, it is the same that has always existed, in different shapes, different states, sometimes with more impurity than others, cycling itself over and over through the centuries.

For brewing interest, I like an entertaining and passionate and knowledgeable lecturer. This is steam. (Some of the most interesting ideas come in the dullest packages, unfortunately). For quenching thirst, a conversational discussion group without a center and many points to bounce ideas off of is best. This is formless liquid. For patching the cracks in my being, some alone time with a book will chill me out to the point that it doesn’t matter.

When it works, the heat is on, the group flows, and the lines are solid. But it’ll never change what philosophy is, even if emotional states are related to cognitive ones. The medium isn’t the message :slight_smile:

Yes that’s my point, too. It’s important we don’t mistake philosophy for the shape it inhabits. Would be like judging water as a bad thing because it’s poured in a swastika shaped ice cube tray. Or saying water hurts because at the moment it is an icicle in your eye, or a caldron you soak in for lambasting the king in a local paper.

What is pure water, the platonic ideal? Can it exist, is it only defined by its phases and molds or lack thereof? And what is philosophy in its purest form, the whole of the universe, time, space, everything, poured through a pure lens of consciousness? And what is the biggest closest thing to a lens big enough to absorb all that? Well, maybe the sum of human minds is a start, or the sum of all minds. Philosophy approaches its pure form only when considered through many or all consciousnesses. Or one, if its big enough.

We have to be careful about what we think we’re taking about when we talk about philosophy and water.

i think i like it best when i’m running for 5 miles and the sun is shining and the blood hits my brain just the right way and for a moment I realize what it’s all about, this movie playing, this swirl of senses surrounding the locus, is all about trying to ride a bull such that "I"care about something and usually that thing is a general principle or value, not a thing, and I simply care about it b/c I can, and in the way a bee cares about a flower, and when that caring is no more, the locus should close up into a point and vanish, the window should close and another one should open somewhere else.

You would have to pour the water through a filter big enough to catch everything, and small enough not to miss anything. Then you’d get pure water. Pure philosophy would be the question you ask someone who knows everything about everything, but only has a tiny bit of time—so make it good.

Who-am-i-why-am-i-here-how-should-i-behave-and-how-do-i-know-what-i-think-i-know?

It wouldn’t fit any container if it had more substance than just some questions.

Like you, I like it best when you’re so engaged in some activity that you feel the whole of the cosmos circle around and existence justifies itself. But sometimes your activity breaks down and you sit at a desk, and run your fingers through your hair with your head down and wonder about what’s missing.