Philosophy ILP style

I feel your pain.

This, from someone who has already stated that he sees no reason to learn the first two postulates of special relativity, on which the whole edifice of the discussion is erected. Naturally, not knowing anything about the theory, you ask questions like this.

If a twin travels six years by his ship clock and returns to find that 40,000 years have passed on earth, does that mean that the traveling twin has aged 40,000 years?

If the twin returns and finds that the sun has blown up and swallowed the earth, and that as a consequence of this the earth no longer travels around the sun, does that mean that the passage of time stops, and the twin is frozen?

Since you don’t know about the founding postulates of SR, you don’t know this: When the traveling twin is in an inertial frame and looks at the earth, he sees the earth moving away from him, since he is at rest with respect to it and the solar system, and notices that everything in the solar system has slowed down, including the ticking of earth clocks.

There you go again, hijacking the term “year.” Six years means the Earth went around the Sun 6 times.

If your clock did six of something while the Earth went around the Sun 40,000 times, it sure as hell wasn’t 6 years your clock measured, it’s six different units that you are calling “years.” It wasn’t 6 years, it was 40,000 years.

If the Earth and Sun mysteriously blew up, then the clock broke, just like if your clock on the ship mysteriously died. Find a new clock!

Yes, it does.

No, it doesn’t. It merely means that the twin can no longer measure time by counting how many laps the Earth has made around the Sun. That’s why I told you that you can pick any vantage point you want. There’s an infinite number of ways to measure time. Counting how many times the Earth has orbited around the Sun is only one of them (and historically the most common one.) You are free to measure time using whatever you want (Earth rotating around the Sun, Earth rotating around its axis, Saturn orbiting around the Sun, atomic clock on Earth, atomic clock on Mars, etc), just make sure you don’t mix different units of time.

A twin travelled 6 years, but 40,000 years passed?

If it is going down hill - yes.

It takes a lot of acceleration to keep those pistons going up and down.

No it doesn’t. To “age” refers to a bodies condition - how much time passage it reflects. If a person - by any magic - maintains perfect youthful health - they have not aged - regardless of how much time has passed.

No it isn’t. The Sun doesn’t force anything to do anything - it just provides radiation and a field of gravity - what you do with it is up to you. :smiley:

No one is talking about time dilation. They are arguing over the words - ILP style philosophy.

And for the record - time dilation is a necessary consequence of light having a maximum limit - whether anyone ever demonstrated it or not.

Change does not directly reference time. Change directly references difference. How “long it took” to make a change/difference is what time is about. But how long it took must have a reference so that a measure can be determined - “this clock hand turned 60 times while this other clock hand turned only once”.

If there was only one thing that changed - there would still be no time - because there would be nothing to compare the change to - no memory of what it was. A measurement is a comparison.

The same is true for length - if there is only one object - you cannot say how long it is - there must be something to compare it to and the units are formed from that comparison. And if there is only one change - you cannot say how fast it occurred - there must be something to compare it to - how fast something else was changing (such as a clock) - and the units of time are born from that comparison.

I think what is fundamental for some is superficial to others.

And no - “change” is not defined by time. Change is defined by a difference that implies an object or situation is different - in another setting (not necessary a setting in time). If you have a long string of 1’s but then a 0 pops up - that is a “change” in the “pattern” - nothing to do with time. At a certain point on your finger the “skin” becomes very hard - a “fingernail” - a “change” in “hardness”.

To measure how much change requires a reference to a smaller or larger possible change.

To measure time (since we are supposed to be discussion time dilation) - there must be not merely a change - but many changes and of different things. Time is the measure of how much one changed relative to how much the other changed - 60 revolutions versus one - a measure of “rate” (of the changing).

If for some reason everything just stopped throughout the entire universe - then started up again - for how long did it stop? Not only is there no way to know - but there was no time - no relative measure of changing - so “how long” becomes a nonsense question “how long compared to what?”

40,000 years on Earth - 6 years of aging on his ship.

Down hill has nothing to do with it. The car is maintaining a constant speed of 50 MPH, and the crankshaft is spinning 4,000 RPM with a torque of 50 lb-ft on it.

The engine is doing work at the rate of 1,256,640 ft-lbs per minute. That is 38.08 HP.

Pistons have nothing to do with it. The crankshaft is spinning a constant 4,000 RPM with a constant 50 lb-ft of torque. That is doing work at the rate of 1,256,640 ft-lbs per minute.

“You have much to learn, Grasshopper!” :wink:

That has nothing to do with it.

After you, mate. :smiley:

Then why does my age add an additional year on my Birthday every year?

Why do the leaves start falling off the trees every year when my age increases by 1 year. Why do I know that in the year 2021 I will be the age of 58 years old. Why did my age turn to 57 years old on my birthday in the year 2020?

If age is all about wrinkles, and I have no wrinkles, then my age must be 38 years old now, even though I was born in the year 1963, and it’s 2021 now.

Is it just a coincidence that the year 1963 will be 58 years ago on my birthday this year? Why does my age agree with the calendar and not some skin assessment or physical at the doctor’s office??

Let me set you straight:
Age is simply time since birth, as measured by the unit “years”, which means that being 57 years old means I have traveled 57 times around the Sun! Period!

That is exactly what it is. Look it up!

What I said is exactly what it is. Loop it up!

Because you count by one’s. Try counting by 3’s and see what you get.

Be kind - they are trying to save you from your destiny.

Farts age - what can I say.

What you said was gibberish! It was nonsense that spewed from between your lips because you have no clue what you are talking about.

Tell us - Is ignorance really as blissful as they say? 8-[

:wink:

Right, I count the times the Earth has orbited the Sun, and every time it completes another lap I add 1 more year to my age on my birthday.

I definitely do not count wrinkles to verify my age, I look at my birth certificate and compare the year to the calendar and do the math. The math works perfect every time I try it. I never even have to consider how many wrinkles I have, can you believe it??

If you don’t like the outcome - change the way you’re doing it - get your move - on. :smiley:

The sky is blue and the grass is green. That’s an example of difference. But that’s not change. What follows from that, I think both of us will agree, is that not every difference is change. Thus, change is a type of difference. But what kind of difference? Change is difference through time. To say that something changed is to say that the state it existed in at some previous point in time is different from the state it exists at present.

How long it took for some process to complete is an instance of duration. Although the word “time” can be, and often is, used to refer to the same thing – that which we uniquely identify with the word “duration” – it also refers to something else. Time is also used to mean “space” within which things that have duration exist.

I still don’t know whether you think that time is a type of description or not. In other words, I still don’t know whether you think that “5 minutes” written down on a piece of paper in order to describe how long it took someone to do something is an instance of time. Is time something we measure or is it a result of measurement?

I would say that length, like time, exists whether or not we can measure it. Obviously, that implies that length and time are things that we measure and not the results of our measurements. And that’s what English language seems to reflect. You measure time. You measure length. You measure height. You measure strength. You measure intelligence. All of these are objects of measurement. They are not results.

That’s a figurative use of the word. Your skin didn’t change. Rather, it is your perception that changed. At an earlier point in time, before you saw your fingernail, your opinion was that your skin at that particular place (where our fingernails rest) is soft. At a later point in time, when you saw your fingernail, your opinion changed to “It is hard”.

Is that how pood used the word? If so, then the answer is no. But in that case, I have no idea why he’s asking me that question. Seems rather irrelevant.

The ppoint I was making is that clocks have a regular output. They do not move slower within their own timeframe.
When time dilation occurs time is different in that the faster you go, the slower you age from the perspective of the earth, but clocks do not slow down. THey always move at the rate of the time frame.

Not if you are travelling in a space ship going 99% of the speed of light.

You you are the one that is confused.
If you don’t like the universe you are living in , then I suggest you run along and find another one to your own liking.
You look like you don’t beling here.