Philosophy - THE NEXT PHASE!!

I would like to open an invitation to some of the members of this forum.

I truly love philosophy, science, learning, and furthering my understanding of this reality. And while I’m certain a great majority of the forum users that post here also enjoy life in the same way, it seems progress is being impeded by fruitless discussions in which one group of posters is trying to convince another group that an idea or concept is correct, and standing behind it with no intention of backing down, regardless of the evidence presented. And while it might seem that both groups are taking the same approach, there is one drastic difference: one group is actually correct, or at least more accurate, than the other group.

It seems that many are convinced that philosophy doesn’t really lead to answers, or that it isn’t really possible for anybody to be “right” or “wrong,” but I beg to differ. I’ll cite some examples.

In the religion forums, there was recently a post that was started regarding the historical existence of Jesus. After what seems a thorough discussion of the topic, I’m certain there are still some who are convinced that there is a 100% chance that he existed, or that he probably did (in a historical sense), some who are convinced that there is a 100% chance he did not exist or probably did not, and then some who remain agnostic about his existence. Only one of these groups is most accurate in their thinking, and it is those who remain agnostic about his existence, or think he probably didn’t exist. Now let’s examine the evidence:

  • Unlike other historical figures, Jesus doesn’t have a documented date of birth, date of death, and none of the details of his life are very clear.

  • The only writings that we have that talk about Jesus are not only strikingly similar to other fictional characters of the time, but were also written many years after Jesus had supposedly died (assuming we can guess an accurate date of birth and death).

Taking these into consideration, the most that could be said about a historical Jesus is that he might have existed. Again I’ll cite the example of a sliding scale of probability, where historical figures with a lot of evidence for their existence (a definite date of birth, date of death, details of their life documented in various places by different authors at the time they were alive, works written by the person, etc.) would be much closer to 100%, whereas “historical figures” such as Jesus would be much closer to 0%, or easily under 50%. It seems safe to say that this is the most accurate conclusion to reach, and it doesn’t seem there should be any disagreement with this conclusion, unless one is really trying to find a conclusion that lies past the evidence, which wouldn’t be an unfair accusation for Christian forum users.

Another example is the abortion debate. Many users on the forum have spent countless hours trying to convince another group of users that abortion is wrong due to some inherent right to live from the moment of conception, or that abortion should be considered murder.

Obviously, the burden of proof rests upon those who actually believe this to prove that it is true, but the unfortunate fact remains that it’s simply not. The reasons a conclusion cannot be reached for this subject are as follows:

  • One cannot state as a fact that a “human being” becomes a “human being” at the moment of conception, regardless of how many chromosomes the zygote or blastocyst possesses.

  • There is no way to nail down, as a scientific fact, when life begins. Even if scientists did define when life began, it would simply be a way of categorizing. A similar example is the declassification of Pluto as a planet. That doesn’t change, in any way, what Pluto is, but for conventional purposes, it was necessary to define a planet to organize facts, and this definition removed Pluto as a planet.

  • Trying to argue when life begins is a slippery slope that can be argued all the way back to pre-conception. Preventing people from having sex could be considered murder, or a condom could be considered murder, etc. etc.

  • When one is arguing for the morality and ethic of abortion, or stem cell research, it is clear that the “greater good” would undoubtedly be curing the millions alive currently that suffer with devastating diseases through stem-cell research, and preventing children who would normally be born into a torturous environment.

As previously mentioned, countless hours are wasted debated these topics over and over, and it’s usually those who believe abortion or stem-cell research is “wrong,” or those who believe Jesus as a fact existed historically, and who are trying to convince everybody else of these assumptive beliefs, when those who are truly interested in truth do not wish to make the assumptions necessary to believe such things as “fact” or “truth.”

I’m not insisting that these topics never be discussed when new evidence comes to light. It obviously impedes the progress of discovery, however, when the same topics have to be debated, and re-debated, every time it is brought up again. When such a topic arises, it should be immediately brought to attention that the answer is “abortion isn’t wrong,” and that “historical Jesus most likely didn’t exist, or one must at least be agnostic (completely unsure one way or the other) about it.”

To use an analogy, it would be similar to a student running into a physics classroom trying to debate the currently established laws of physics, and receiving equal time in that classroom to do so, instead of being politely informed and taught the currently established laws and theories. It would make sense that the student is first shown why it is an established fact or theory, and if the student still doesn’t think this is correct, they’d better have a fact or theory that makes a lot of sense. If this fact or theory doesn’t convince the teachers and professors of physics, then it should be discarded as superfluous, false, or incorrect.

I have no doubts that there are many great philosophical discussions that are just waiting to be uncovered, but aren’t being found due to the time effort spent trying to get everybody on the same page, because so many are convinced that everybody’s own page is equally correct, or is equally true. My invitation is to those who are ready to move on to the next phase of philosophy, who are ready and willing to begin building a foundation of philosophical truths, many of which it seems have been partially revealed by science and our understanding of reality and the universe. Now is the ideal time to begin building a foundation, one that is as strong as that science has laid down for us, for the philosophical truths that have been and can be revealed through discussion, discourse, and unbiased consideration of evidence, facts, sound reason, and logic.

d,
Great OP!!!
I believe the next phase of philosophy could be a reconciliation of the mind/matter controversy in which physical information as precursors of mental information can be acknowledged. Philosophy cannot lag behind scientific discoveries, nor can it ignore them in search of some abstract absolutes. It must deal with what we are, what we know, what we can know. We could quibble forever about determinism vs. free will, etc. without ever getting to insights that can improve our knowledge of the human condition. We must begin with the given. Then we can move on. The book “Philosophy: End or Transition” takes up this matter nicely.

This is hardly a “great” opening post. :unamused:

This is simply another way in which D0rkyd00d needs to irrationalize away his feelings of fear and shame, typical of utilitarian moral relativists.

He cites that those who think Jesus existed are 100% wrong. What he really means is that he wants to put as much distance from his fear of going to Hell as he possibly can. He has been abused by Christians and he has “rebelled” from their “attacks” in equal but opposite reaction, polarizing to the other side of the extreme where he denies even the existence of the historical Jesus for “safety’s sake”, an existence which isn’t really in historical doubt, even though Jesus most certainly wasn’t God.

And he next cites his denial that a human being begins at conception, saying also that it’s 100% certain that a human being doesn’t begin at conception, ludicrously denying the high school textbook reality that’s over thirty years old that states clearly, based on DNA and life science, that a human being begins to live that person’s live at conception. Here, his shame of thinking himself an advocate of killing people (the newly conceived) conflicts with his utilitarian compulsion to fuk-and-kill to thereby never be “economically enslaved” to childsupport, his underlying fear. Since that compulsion overrides his facing the truth of reality, he hides from his shame by running into his mind and laughably denying the most obvious of truths: that a human being, a person, begins to live at conception, as his beloved science itself has made unconjecturably evident.

There’s no need to continue citing more of his egoistic examples.

This thread’s “theme” is all about his and his cohort’s rationalization of denial of reality, denial which he tries to “legitimize” in his mind by creating an entire thread “shrine” to it. :unamused:

This is a very sad thread, indeed.

It only honors mental masturbation.

I was under the impression that Philosophy was attempting to tackle ‘open questions’. You post implies that there is a solution to all questions and further that you have it or that someone somewhere has it. Abortion and Jesus… You might be right that they do not belong to philosophical scrutiny any longer. But to say in all these philosophical arguments you have lumped together, the truth is there and it is apparent, seems unreasonable simply because there are counter arguments for everything you have brought up, and for the most part they appear reasonable aswell. You appear to use skepticism, just untill its about to take a global step, then you drop skepticism quickly and rely on ‘fact’.

Your definately right, when we are talking about abortion in terms of science we are wasting time. But in terms of philosophy, where is the clear answer? I would stick my neck out and say its still and an open question and you have not and as far as I’ve seen no one has provide an argument for/against abortion that is sound. You seem to contradict yourself in that you present " It seems that many are convinced that philosophy doesn’t really lead to answers…" In the original context you gave I would agree with that statement. But do you drop this belief of others temporarily and apply it yourself when stateing that You said “Trying to argue when life begins is a slippery slope that can be argued all the way back to pre-conception…” This then implies we should drop it? and what allow abortion or not allow abortion?

What appears to me through your post, is that you use science/history as your backing for philosophy. Whereas philosophy is dealing with questions explicitly that science/history has no abiltiy dealing with, for now anyway.

You have chosen here to engage the people not the arguments at hand, whatever they might be. This action does not appear to be philosophical in nature, and your arguments (simply that there is a truth and you, or others have presented it) at first glance seems powerfull and persuasive. However looking deeper , at all these philosophical notions we again see counter arguments.

Thank you for your responses.

If any interpreted my post to imply that all answers can be found, then it was either written poorly, or interpreted incorrectly, so I will make clear now that I certainly don’t think all questions have answers, or that all answers can be found. Looking through many of the posts on this forum, however, it is evident that even on subjects where we should have a concensus amongst everybody, there are stragglers who refuse to accept the concensus. For many topics, this isn’t acceptable.

Sabrina brings up a good example: moral relativity. The concensus on this subject should be that moral relativity is a fact: it is a reality. While one might argue that there is nothing conclusive to categorize this as fact, with our knowledge and understanding of the world, it couldn’t be anything else.

Morals are relative not only amongst species, but also amongst human beings. The list of examples is extensive: homosexuality, the death penalty, abortion, cannabalism, etc. etc. While some would argue that there are some things that aren’t acceptable in any society, such as freely murdering whoever you please, there are explanations as to why we agree on this being “wrong,” most of which have roots in evolutionary pscyhology, neurology, biology, etc. It isn’t because an “objective” moral system is in place that more and more strive to adhere to; rather, it’s explanations lie within the workings of the human mind, and our evolutionary trajectory.

We should be at a consensus as a race with such realizations so we may continue with our knowledge and understanding of the world. Many would argue against moral relativity, but when considering all of the arguments and evidence for or against, we should agree as a race to concede upon the idea that makes the most sense, that is the most accurate, and that has the most evidence, is the most reasonable, logical, etc.

Could we all agree that in reality, “right” and “wrong” only exist because we have created them? Could we all agree that every concept we’ve ever thought of or considered only exists because we’ve created them? If it were my choice, such topics would be taught in school as fact. Many would disagree, but perhaps those who do agree would be able to put into words more eloquently than I have why it should be this way.

And Ierrellus, I’ll definitely take a look at that book. =)

Is this the one you’re talking about?

amazon.com/After-Philosophy- … 026252113X

02.02.07.1894

An interesting proposition… a philosophical doctrine that teaches that the understanding of this reality can be found through logical analysis of the physical world through science and reason, yes?

I can’t put my finger on it right now, but I believe such a foundation has already existed for quite some time.

There was one thing on this thread so far that amused me…

[i]I know your comment was directed at a single person, but I am amused that you’ve said such things, and at the same time, curious about the nature of your convictions in this matter. Do you have proof to show that dorkydood believes in such a place as Hell? Even better, can you prove that such a place as Hell even exists, otherwise? I am very interested in seeing how you’ve managed to make such assumptions without evidence.

I could argue that you’ve made this comment against him out of your own fear. Assuming you to be a Christian, this comment would go to show that you are afraid of facing the reality that your belief has been shielding you from. Perhaps you are even afraid of losing the comfort value to which you so willingly apply to your belief. I cannot confirm any of this of course, unless you admit to it.[/i]

It’s not what evidence there is that exists in this world, it’s what we choose to do with it.

The interesting thing is that when I was a Christian, I didn’t believe hell to be fire and brimstone, but rather just eternal death and nothingness…

My transformation to atheism did nothing to calm that fear, as small as it may be.

There was a time the concensus was the world was flat. In that we then may believe at least that concensus is questionable. You add some eloquence however that 'for many topics, this isnt acceptable" Are we talking about philosophical topics? Such as Ethical Relativism.

Its note worthy that you say that the concenus should be. But is it? And if it is not, but rather against, would you then be wrong?

If ethical relativism is a ‘fact’ or precisely truth, you should expect that people will always disagree, and that in truth what you say morally will always be right by your very saying/believing it. The same applies to everyone else. At which point there would be no concensus.

Interesting enough you also make a plea to be heard:

This might be true, but your clear that that has nothing to do with it. It would suit you, so therefor it, in your world would be called fact.
You appear to move from we cant have the truth and we should just make a general concensus to

[quote]
…so we may continue with our knowledge and understanding of the world[…/quote]? This doesnt appear to be logically consistant.

the-brights.net/

Modern secular cult. Nothing to do with philosophy, but it’ll keep people like Dorkydood happy…

I’m not a Christian.

I’m not of any religion.

There is no afterlife.

There is no such place as Hell.

My comment about D00rkyd00d’s underlying fear that Hell might be real “afterall” was gleaned by reading his many posts in the religion forum of this board.

His “atheistic” ego may deny in certain forms of presentation that this is even an issue for him, as part of its distancing efforts.

But I know what he said.

And his obviously unresolved past remains a part of him.

Cleverly cute diversion. :unamused:

Now for the part you don’t want to hear.

It’s not the fear of what you “thought”.

What you fear is what they think – the fire and brimstone people.

From your many postings in the religion section, you are obsessed with it, that what if they … are right.

No wonder, suddenly, “there is no right or wrong” for you.

If there is no right or wrong, no true or false, then you can just as easily wish away your greatest fear: that you, no longer being a Christian, will one day die … and burn in horrendous agony in Hell forever.

Tell me, straight faced, that this fear never enters … your soul.

No, it honestly doesn’t. I find the entire idea so ludicrous that it’s clear the only way a person could believe it as fact would be through indoctrination as a child, at a time when deciding if something your parents tell you is actually true isn’t an option, because believing the opposite of what they tell you wasn’t very good for survival on the evolutionary timeline.

AHHHHH! A group of people that doesn’t believe in supernatural or mystical explanations and conclusions! Run for your lives!

Absolutely phenomenal post. I couldn’t agree more.

A few things before we tackle the more worthy ideas:

Sabrina: Your posts are exactly the sort of thing that DD is against. I don’t say this to be insulting, but rather to point out that, because of this, this particular thread may not be the best place for those comments, as they are contrary to the rather difficult and esoteric sort of contemplation that DD is trying to foster. It would be more respectful to let him try to pursue that avenue of thinking, and if you wish to show him what you consider “the error of his ways”, start another thread, or do so via PM. Just a suggestion.

Zara:

Of course. For peoples living not near the ocean with ships (so that you can see the sail appear before the ship), this consensus makes perfect sense. 3000 years ago, any philosophers debating the shape of the world should have replied to the round-Earther just as DD is replying to the moral absolutists: “based on the best available evidence, your stance is incorrect”.

The point is this: there is a “most reasonable” stance for MANY issues that are still considered “open” in Philosophy. This most reasonable stance SHOULD be the one that everyone has - but, everyone should always be willing to reconsider old beliefs in light of new evidence.

In general:

Surely we’ve all had this experience: arguing something that seems so obviously correct to us that it’s inconceivable our opponent disagrees. Surely just as DD and I feel that way about moral absolutists, they feel that way about us. What creates this difference?

  1. Stupidity, poor thinking, bias, or refusing to honestly consider an opposing viewpoint. That’s the obvious one, and the one a lot of people will claim to be true of their opponent.

  2. Axiomatic differences. You could theoretically have a very intelligent Christian who rejects the basic axioms of logic and empiricism in favor of the axioms of biblical faith. This person would believe - quite correctly, given his axioms - in moral objectivity. It would be fruitless to try to convince this person of his error, because he simply isn’t making an error. He’s just using different axioms.

It’s difficult to resolve issues with those in category 1. The best you can do is to ignore them, or try to create an atmosphere in which they cannot or would not enter. But the resolution for those in category 2 is much easier. Philosophy, no more than science, is not meant to be an exploration of truth from contradictory axiomatic viewpoints. Philosophy has, as a fundamental axiom, logic. A belief that is logically self-contradictory, such as a belief in a classically omnipotent god, must be philosophically rejected outright. The intelligent morally objective Christian has no place arguing from his own personal axioms, because they are simply irrelevant.

This is true in many other areas as well. The Pennsylvania court correctly ruled that Intelligent Design has no place in school science classes, because it is not based on science at all. The axioms of science and of ID fundamentally conflict. And so on.

So from this stance, how do we develop a more unified philosophy, where we can agree on obvious things like moral relativism, atheism, free will vs. determinism, and move on to more interesting concepts? I think the answer is simple - establish the Axioms of Philosophy, and go from there.

I would propose these as the basic axioms of Philosophy:

  1. Logic
  2. Pragmatism. This is a biggie, and I’d divide its main components up like so:

2a) Modified Logical Positivism, where those topics that cannot be logically or empirically analyzed must be dismissed.
2b) A healthy level of empiricism
2c) The conscious awareness of the importance of definitions. Understanding this is what makes the free will debate a trivial one, and also frowns upon the Kantian practice of taking an already well-defined term and using it to mean something entirely different.

Thoughts? Modifications or additions to the axioms?

There’s an old saying: “Let your answer be yea or nay – anything more comes from the Devil”.

What this means here, D0rkyd00d, is that you aren’t telling the truth.

If it didn’t bother you, you’d simply say “No.”.

That you rambled on in qualification of what was supposed to be your feelings, only shows that you aren’t being honest with them, and that the fire and brimstone people still carry weight with you.

It doesn’t matter whether one was “indoctrinated” in childhood on the matter.

What matters is how suggestible one remains.

And seekers … are still susceptible … to suggestion.

I’ll pass on your “suggestion” to self-censor, Twiffy.

D00rkyd00d’s post was an obvious shrine to denial from the onset.

And you continue in collaboration with him along that line.

That isn’t “philosophy”. :unamused:

That’s simply co-conspiring in a lie. :imp:

Oh well, I tried. Now for the active ignoring! Who’s with me?

I’m with you Twiffy. She gets a real kick out of “debates”. I say we just ignore her (she doesn’t contribute anything anyways) until she wanders somewhere else for stimulation.

d0rkyd00d, I get the feeling that you’re a little confused. Mind you, I am too - when I read this thread I’m not entirely sure what your position is, or even if you have one, and what you’re getting at.

OK, so there is such a thing as relativism. We get that. It’s not new and nobody here invented it.

There’s also the idea that there’s questions we don’t know the answer to and (as Wittgenstein intimated) we probably shouldn’t indulge in too much dialogue about what we don’t understand.

There’s definition simply by category, as you’ve said, and a whole lot of doubts as to whether we can know the truth of anything.

Can we agree, though, that there is a mind-independent truth about the existence of god, jesus, infantile life, whatever?

Can we also agree that there is more than one kind of question?

The existence of Jesus is, at best, a historical question. It doesn’t even indicate God’s existence, nor anything else. There is an answer. We don’t know it. We can argue, but we don’t need the answer to do anything with.

As for the whole fetus/abortion issue - that’s an ethics question. Anyone who’s ever read anything on ethics knows there’s no definitive, provable, dialogue-ending absolute answer (sorry to steal your thunder on that one). But we do need to come up with an answer about what to do with it, even if our answer might not correlate to a mind-independent truth. The issue is in our face and even doing nothing is taking a position.

You seem to advocate or justify not having a position, but having the discussion anyway. I’d go the other way and say that the discussion (did Jesus exist) is inconsequential… but we need to adopt a position about the issues that are with us.

AlternateParallelReality:

It sounds like you aren’t getting DD’s gist. He’s saying that there are clear answers for a lot of philosophical questions, and that everyone should agree on them (at least until new evidence presents itself), so that we can go on to more interesting questions.

Also, regarding abortion, he’s aware that statements like “abortion is right” or “abortion is wrong” are dependent on a person’s subjective moral system. However, statements like “life begins at conception” are NOT moral questions, and so can be analyzed using logic and science. If the idea that “life begins at conception” is what is used to argue that abortion is wrong, then presumably refuting that idea nullifies that particular argument.