Physique and Character - revisited.

The current geopolitical realities have forced any ideas concerning disparity and individual limits down to the status of marginal, non-politically-correct and outdated absurdities.
We have to merely label an opinion racist or sexist or cynical or fascist or prejudiced to deny it, these days.

We find support in our struggles to exclude anything creating rifts in those who, like us, seek total inclusion and the shielding of their right to participation and belonging within the whole.

The need for inclusion, so as to achieve social harmony, demands that all should be offered the illusion of equality and unlimited personal potential.
Beauty, intelligence, strength, talent are all spun in ways which makes them irrelevant or ambiguous and accessible to all indiscriminately.

Often the terms are reinterpreted to become more accommodating and less demanding.

We lower our standards, when they cannot be wholly done away with or labeled prejudiced and outdated, so that more can measure up and not feel outcasts or inadequate.
Total discipline to the whole and complete devotion to it is accomplished by nurturing the myth of equal potential.
This process is called leveling.

For this reason any hypothesis concerning the connection between outward appearance and character or psychology are deemed counterproductive, prejudiced or primitive.
Psychologists are now taught, as gatekeepers of normalcy, to consider any hypothesis which creates social disharmony as diseased.
The healthy mind is now the one which wants to completely disappear and be assimilated within fold. It wants to be a carbon copy of an average ideal.

Even beauty is now considered skin-deep or a chance occurrence with no deeper implications or it is diluted in significance by making it a matter of taste and perspective, ignoring the evolutionary implications of physical symmetry and the part it plays in natural selection.
Perspectivism, in general, is often recruited as a method of making all opinions and judgments equal and insignificant.
The prevailing ‘truth’ is that we all have a right to our own truth.
What’s ‘truth’ when any truth will do?

The idea that things are more than they appear, a Kantian outgrowth, and that we can only perceive the world superficially leads us to the wrong conclusion that there is more there than meets the eye.
Wherever an unknown exists man places a deity there.
So it has been with the thing-in-itself. Its very inaccessibility makes it a perfect place to plant a comforting myth forever protected from our curiosity.

Yet, others have proposed the idea that there is nothing underneath appearances. Reality exhibits itself completely and uninhibited and it is only our lack of perception or our misinterpretations that cause the error which results in us comforting ourselves with the idea that there is more there hidden and inaccessible to the human mind.
Of course what is “hidden” is always given a positive hue.
Man escapes reality into hope.

I’m more inclined to support the second proposition where reality is there entirely and it hides nothing, that it is our emotions and human limitations that cause disparity in understanding it and that success is determined by how closely we’ve managed to interpret our limited perceptions of it.
We live in an approximation of something actual.

Thusly the concept that physique is indicative of character cannot, in my mind, be entirely dismissed.
One could confront many of the suppositions concerning some of the opinions of what each individual physical trait means but not that it participates in a pattern that exhibits something real.

If we take the opinion that the physical and the mental are different manifestations of the same thing in a different context then we are lead to the conclusion that physical traits, inherited from our past or mutated due to present conditions, say something directly and honestly about us.

Ernst Kretschmer separates the physical types into schizophrenes and pyknics with the analogous psychological types.
He, furthermore, subcategorizes these groups into schizophrene athletic, schizophrene asthenic types and circular types, and admits to a hazy delineating line between the types with many intermingling and exceptions.
He also proposes psychological predispositions corresponding to each physical type.

The accuracy of his interpretations and generalizations aside, he opens up a subject which makes many, raised with western social sensibilities, uncomfortable.
Racism, sexism raise their uninvited heads and we feel threatened by the implications.
But our discomforts alone are not arguments against the hypothesis and can only point to our own prejudices concerning certain possibilities.

Nevertheless if we can distinguish ourselves as belonging to the same species using physical markers then we cannot deny the specific implications of each physical marker.

In my opinion physical characteristics expose psychological dispositions, as we can intuitively recognize them even if we rationally deny them, and they do affect our judgment concerning individuals.

Of course physical appearances affect our judgement concerning individuals. What is new here?

Similarly, physical appearances do say something about the psychological state of the individual, but only those physical traits which are readily manipulated.

White vs. not-white does not say anything about the psychological make-up of an individual. However, buff vs. lean vs. fat vs. obese says a great deal about their psychological make-up.

It’s about seperating volitional appearances vs. non-volitional appearances and understanding that one leads to incorrect prejudice, while the other allows us a window into the mind of someone.

I’m referring also to inherited traits.

A large nose, a high forehead, skin pigmentation included.

In the case of skin pigmentation it reveals a past environmental condition that has resulted in physical alterations.

These conditions cannot be said to have had no psychological or mental effects, even if these effects may be diluted through interbreeding or masked by cultural behavioral standards which force a feigned norm.

While I do believe we are ultimately controlled by our genes and am quite suspicious about the whole free will thing . . . I’m going to have to ask you to support your argument with examples.

While what you say may be true, the question remains: is it useful?

Since, at present, there is no definative assay for elucidating this inner nature, where does this take us?

Also, for your hypothesis to be true, the genes which determine skin pigmentation would have to be linked to genes associated with neuronal function. To my knowledge, these gene groupings are distinct from one another. I suppose some HOX genes could be involved, but neuronal architecture is a fairly distinctly regulated process.

You are the house you live in, you are the paint on the walls, you are the contents of your wallet and clothes do make the man. What’s new pussycat…?

Not really - genes for high melanination tendencies suitable for desert life or whatever, would cluster with genes for ‘desert-mentality’, as both are mutually beneficial to eachother.

Information is simply information.
What one does with it is a matter of individual preference and will.

If nothing else all information is useful in shaping and understanding self and the human condition.

If I say the universe is infinite, of what possible use is this information to you?
None, unless you choose to use it in some way to create a living experience.

There is no definite way to elucidate anything.
This is why we debate and discuss and share information and interpretations of reality.

I didn’t say they were “linked”.
I said that if we assume that skin pigmentation is a consequence of previous environmental conditions which have left a lasting effect even if the environmental conditions alter or the individual is placed in different environments where the original characteristic is unnecessary then why do we assume that these same environmental conditions had no psychological or mental long lasting effect?

We can imagine that a less challenging environment would result in a slower mental development.
Given multiple generations of this same environment why do we deny that these mental traits will not be ingrained in the gene and passed down to offspring?

My understanding is that an infinite universe vs. a finite universe has a fair amount of reprecussions wrt universal constants and GU-theories. What impact do those have on our lives? Not much yet, but TVs would not be possible without quantum theory, so I think it is fair to say that the nature of the universe will have a great impact on our day-to-day lives.

As for the impossibility of knowing, I’m gonna have to argue that such a philosophy is fairly worthless in terms of producing useful ideas. Show me an invention that relies on induction. Show me a morality based upon induction. Show me a human being improved through induction.

As for a definate way to elucidate something – if you are arguing that, are you arguing that science has not progressed? While science has not created any definative answers, they have definately shown that many, many things are not-true. This is progress.

Now, not to say corrolation equals causation, but do you have any circumstantial evidence for what you are proposing?

If we look at it from a sociobiology standpoint, one of the advantages that humans outside of Africa had was that they were part of a much more limited gene pool. From this smaller genetic population, it was easier to breed certain phenotypes, to distinguish ‘my tribe’ from ‘not my tribe’, largely due to a build up of recessive mutations.

However, given the commonality of life for Paleolithic man, I have a hard time believing that there would be strong selective pressures for mental traits. Especially since the major selective advantage these traits could infer would be ingenuity in tool design. The problem with that is the fact that humans are very good at copying one another, so it isn’t the toolmaker who reproduces the most, but the one who can use the tool best.

So, I guess what I’m saying is: what are the selective pressures from these environments?

How about strong belief in causality. Tendency to associate successive events as cause/effect. Tendency toward syntax - Storytelling in strict order…?

As for ‘desert mentality’ perhaps a reduced capacity for empathy and compassion. They certainly never understood Laurence’s 'bring ‘em back alive’ credo. (From the film I saw at least) :laughing:

One of the major differences between humans and other primates, actually, is that we are in some ways much, much dumber.

If you wave your hands over a box, tap it three times, and then open it in front of a monkey, when the monkey wants to open the box, it will just open it.

If you do the same demonstration to a human child, when they want to open it they will wave their hands over the box, tap it three times, and then open it.

It is thought that this degree of mimickry is, by-and-large, what allows for the foundations of education as humans understand it.

While there are, undeniably, strong pressures for mental traits (it is how we got here, after all), what I find hard to believe is that between the paleolithic and present, that such traits were active to such a degree as to cause a significant divergence within populations.

Come on Xunzian - that’s complete balls and you know it. The other primates don’t even know how to point for God’s sake.

I got a bit lost there - do you mean Desert mentality again…? Or something else…?

If the former - then I’d say that as soon as the basics for complex speech were in place, memetics took over as the adaptive force, and if there was time, and enough generations, then a genetic tendency to hold those particular beliefs strongly could arise.

I said in some ways, and then I qualified it.

Humans are prone to mimicry to the point of absurdity. It ends up working in our favour, but when it comes to learning how to perform certain activities, we can be pretty freakin’ dumb.

As for the desert mentality . . . forgive my ignorance, but would you mind clarifying that a bit?

I am using Ernst Kretschmer’s research in his book ‘Physique and Character’ as a template upon which I place my own observations to deduce a truth which mainstream science would be reluctant in pursuing.
Is it inconceivable to you that science would be political or that scientists would be products of their social environments, shaping their results by the questions they ask and the way they ask them?
A statistic can be shaped by simply changing the grammar used or the words selected.

In disciplines where reality is the final arbitrator of what is accurate and what is not, the success determines if a question has been asked correctly and that the information has been interpreted correctly.
We, for instance, cannot deny physical differences between individuals of any species because they are there readily accessible to our senses.
What we can deny are what they mean.
What we can deny is that these physical differences correspond to psychological or mental ones because here we can interpret our observations in accordance with the prevailing moral system.

In disciplines where the outcomes are not as clear speculations about what they mean abound.

It seems logical to me that physical characteristics have psychological correlations, sometimes inherited from the parent and at other times formed through personal experiences which mutate the inherited forms.
It is absurd to me to believe that an environment can have such profound genetic effects upon the physical form, often to the point of splintering off a new species, and that it has absolutely no affect on the mind or on psychology.

The fact that certain looks create certain reactions to them is not accidental nor is it completely cultural.
(Culture itself is an extension of nature)

For example, gender isn’t a cultural invention no matter how much many would like to think so.
It is a product of an evolved reproductive strategy and survival necessity within a particular environment which, given enough time, is ingrained in the psychology as a predisposition.
Is this predisposition uncontrollable?
No more than overeating or being attracted to fats and sugars.
Is this predisposition irreversible?
No. Given enough time and sexual selection a trait can be filtered out of a gene pool.

For instance masculinity and femininity can be filtered out of a gene pool when sex becomes irrelevant.

Man didn’t just drop out of the ether upon the earth, he evolved through millennia to react and to be attracted and repelled by certain markers for certain reasons.
Our preferences are not a matter of taste. Our taste is a matter of selective breeding which offers a survival advantage.

Beauty, symmetry and its opposite all indicate a constitution of being. They are relevant from a biological standpoint, even if reasonably they mean nothing, as nothing means nothing, really.

Certain colors attract for specific reasons and not by chance.
Certain forms persist for certain reasons.
Certain psychologies persist for certain reasons.

What these reasons are is up for debate.

And are not all racial markers the product of a period of reproductive isolation and a “limited gene pool”?

Given enough time a new species can emerge from the accumulation of mutations and inter-breeding.

All of science is based on induction and deduction.
General rules are induced and deduced through specific instances.
We do not only speak about individual members of a herd, we speak about species behavior.
We do not only speak about our sun but about stars.
We do not have specific psychological branches for every individual born. We create general rules, based on patterns of behavior.

All our conception of reality is a deduction and induction.
Logic is the persistent, repetitive predictability of phenomena over a prolonged period of time.
We say “What goes up must come down” is a logical assumption because in our environment and within our experiential frontier it has always occurred in this way.
We say it is logical that 2+2= 4 because we have never experienced a single instance when this was not true.
We forget that the concept of 1 or 2 is a generalization and has no real meaning.
There is no 1. If there were we would have an absolute.
We have a general concept insinuating an imagined specificity and unity in relation to the environment.

One apple.
One rock.
One man.

What apple?
What rock?
What man?

We cannot know the universe at birth.
We speculate and approximate it’s totality from specific everyday instances and from the heritage passed down to us as the accumulated experiential data of generations.

Similarly a Japanese person looks the way he does due to the accumulated data passed down to him in the form of a genetic code.
Specific physical characteristics can be indicative of prolonged environmental effects upon the accumulated heritage.
They are markers of something that may or may not be environmentally relevant presently.

Really.
Then how would you explain intelligence and self-awareness?

What about creativity?

Are not mental traits instances of genetic fitness within a specific environment?
Why do mental traits persist when they offer no survival advantage?

How does social behavior become possible if not for the selective exclusion of antagonistic and intolerant mental traits?

Domestication consists in breeding our physical and behavioral traits which are detrimental to harvesting or production or communal living.

Wrong.
You are thinking after-the-fact.

The tool maker gains an advantage, even if momentarily, and it is because of this gain that others imitate and copy him.
An ineffective or incapable tool-maker would create ineffective tools and nobody would pay attention.

Are you saying there are no selective pressures for intelligence, ingenuity and psychology?

Well - I suppose you could equally say - ‘urban mentality’ or ‘mountain mentality’ or ‘Whatever you like mentality’. What I mean is just as geographic isolation can lend a group of people a distinct physiological ‘look’ - that isolation, or even simple social segregation, can lend a group a distinct set of beliefs/ideology, that is adaptive in that it complements their survival within that physical or social habitat.

And I’m proposing that over enough time, and enough generations, those with a genetic tendency to hold these beliefs more strongly than others may become more numerous. Not an actual ideological hardwiring - only a certain neurological bent that is conducive to a certain type of belief.

My how you’ve changed… =D>

I think that there were selective pressures, what I am arguing is that:

  1. These selective pressures were not strong enough on paleolithic man for there to be a strong divergence within the phenotypic groups which we presently aknowledge.

  2. Within the limited gene pools, where such differences could arise, the foundations were already such that intelligence was not a strong selective factor.

This does not mean that some people are not born smarter or more capable than others. That is, in my opinion and experience, quite true. However, I do not believe that the conditions that our ancestors were exposed to were sufficient to create a phenotype for these intelligences.

In order for, say nose size, and intelligence to be linked either a) a gene that encodes for intelligence in one situation also encodes for big nosed-ness, or the gene for intelligence is linked to big nosed-ness or b) a population of paleolithic humans whose tribe selected for big nosed-ness as a racial phenotype was also significantly more intelligent than other tribes and the big nosed-ness of this tribe was unique to this tribe and this tribe was successful enough to make an impact on the modern population, from a genetic standpoint.

Gotta hit the sack - two words: Ainu and Aborigine…?

Maybe not relevant - but legends of the “white long beards” in polynesia and south america…? a race of very architecturally advanced people who taught them pyramid building and rafting…? And who stay in the pop. as a recessive gene… I’m a bit hazy on this one.

Satyr - It would seem we all have to wake up eventually. :laughing:

But we aren’t talking about great differences.
We still belong to the same species which means the divergence is minimal and the isolation not long enough to cause a genetic rift.

We are talking about minute differences exhibiting themselves through details such as cranium shape and size, nose and ear shape and size, skin tone and texture, symmetry and form.

These minute mental and psychological differences become further indistinguishable through social indoctrination and domestication or training.

From childbirth a child is taught correct and incorrect expressions of individuality.

The larger the group the less divergence is allowed.
Larger groups create more pressure to conform into an average behavioral pattern which may hide internal pressures to repress and suppress pre-existing, genetic inclinations.

Person X and persona Y both relate and behave in similar, “civil” ways, forced to from birth as a necessary stage before assimilation and participation.
But person X cannot be said to be exerted the same level of control over himself as person Y.

How they act is determined by how they are allowed to act and how they can control their natural inclinations to act.

How they want to act cannot be said to be the same or that it is experienced with the same intensity.
For instance: Person X has a more active libido and is sexually driven more than person Y.
Both outwardly adhere to social and cultural norms but each exerts more control over himself to conform than the other - this because each has different psychological and mental predispositions exhibiting themselves through physical traits.
They both seem the same, but are they?

This phenomenon is more pronounced among social animals.
Forced to unite and become social by survival and procreative pressures their success is determined by how well they integrate within the whole by repressing or suppressing their individual traits which would make their integration more problematic.

A few interesting articles:

pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/99/15/10221

bio.ilstu.edu/sakaluk/BSC%20 … mmetry.pdf

unm.edu/~hebs/pubs/ProkoschY … mmetry.pdf

So, it seems like symmetry plays more of a role in indicating intelligence than other physical features and that symmetry provides a mechanism whereby intelligence could be sexually selected.

So, it does seem as though there is a physical indicator.

Thanks for the links.
I’ve downloaded them and I am certainly going to read them.

Interesting stuff, visual and olfactory indicators of (male) intelligence/general genetic fitness - and most effective during a woman’s fertile period.

Good find Xunzian.