Poimandres

[Poimandres]

I’d like to link you all to this book:

amazon.com/Gnostic-Bible-Mys … 1570622426

Read the chapter “Poimandres” and tell me this does not explain the Big Bang, fully, without question, and in great detail. I have read it, and from what I know of physics and the life of the universe, I see no fault. But I am not trained to see such faults, only understand the archetypes in the story (Which I understand fully, unlike the physics aspect).

Although I cannot say as to the correctness of THIS translation:

ls.poly.edu/~jbain/mms/texts/C03 … lepius.pdf

I would imagine it is still as good as the translation from the book on Amazon (I haven’t read this online version but it seems to have the correct syntax intact and not corrected/emended).

Awaiting the trial of Poimandres

[jonquil]

What I read of it is pretty general, and it does deal with the ultimate beginning as both light and Word and development of land, water, forms, and life from there. It’s like a hermetic genesis, very interesting.

If they ever make that gnostic bible available on Kindle, I’m going to get it. It includes the entire Corpus Hermeticum which was the great inspiration of the Renaissance Neoplatonists, though they never understood that it was actually derived from post-Christ era Greek gnosticism.

Especially of interest, also, would be the sections on Islamic and Cathar gnosticism. That history is just fascinating, and very very great art came out of all those eras.

[matthatter]

If you are confident the book explains the big bang “fully, without question, and in great detail”
–which implies you think you understand (according to your own knowledge) the (logical sense, and overall objective validity of the) explanations and their rationality to such an extent that you believe the overall “full”/complete explanation of the big bang is without flaw–
why don’t you try to sum it up here?

Of course it won’t be as complete, thorough and detailed as the chapter, but I don’t know many people are going to take your suggestion (or challenge?) and pick up the book, just because you claim the chapter presents a not only impeccable, but “full” explanation of the big bang. I doubt many people here will take that claim seriously, when you’ve left the subject (to simply “The Big Bang”) as open ended as you have.

I mean… consider the notorious question: “If God created the Universe, what created God?”. Or “If God caused the big bang, what caused God?” Or even “If the big bang resulted from cause X, what caused cause X”? My point is, the “fully” in “explain the big bang, fully” isn’t even close to having a clear meaning. You yourself said that:

I have read it, and from what I know of physics and the life of the universe, I see no fault. But I am not trained to see such faults, only understand the archetypes in the story (Which I understand fully, unlike the physics aspect).

So, clearly your claim (of the chapter presenting a full, unquestionable and greatly detailed explanation of the big bang) isn’t a scientific one, as in made in light of the standards of modern science and a thorough, up to date knowledge of research in the physics field. Anyone who actually has that kind of knowledge and interest in the Big Bang would be disappointed by the chapter if he was so intrigued by your claim that he sought it out and read it, assuming the “great detail” of the comprehensive explanation of the cosmological theory would be well rested on, of course, cosmology… quantum mechanics, relativity, thermodynamics, all that stuff that distinguishes cosmology as a science (the “big bang” theory was first hypothesized by, and so far has been supported by, scientific evidence and observation) from creationism as a religion (which isn’t based on evidence, but rests on intuiting unknown and incomparable causes and events–which one is utterly incapable of fathoming and “educated guessing” based on observation–according to all one has ever known: one’s own intentions).

So basically, you’re talking about creationism, to a certain extent, right? It may not contradict the big bang, but this “full, unquestionable” explanation isn’t really about the big bang, but is actually an “explanation” of (scenario in which a) god (that created the universe) that doesn’t contradict (your admittedly limited understanding of the cosmological theory of) the big bang. However, that really isn’t that accurate either; the actual meaning behind your use of “big bang” is not specifically the theory (and evidence that support it), but a general “rationality regarding the creation of the universe”.

I think it’d be more accurate if you removed

Read the chapter “Poimandres” and tell me this does not explain the Big Bang, fully, without question, and in great detail.

and replace it with “tell me this doesn’t provide an explanation of a god, and its creation of our universe, that can’t be refuted with logic of scientific evidence.”

I think that if you understood the archetypes “fully”, you wouldn’t have presented the chapter as a full, detailed explanation of the big bang.

If you are inspired by the ideas in the chapter, and they feel right for you, more power to you. I think human beings need myths to give their lives meaning and guide their behaviors to prevent psychological turmoil. But religion shouldn’t be confused with science (used to filter out subjective bias and assumption when trying to understand and predict the physical phenomenon that affects everyone in the “objective world” we all believe to exist).

[jonquil]

Here is a good online introduction to the Corpus Hermeticum, of which the “Poemandres” is the second part. http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/herm/h-intro.htm Poemandres (var. spelled Poimandres, Poemander, or Pimander) is essentially the Mind of God that the neophyte Hermes Trismegistus wished to gain knowledge from. It’s good to remember that this is a somewhat bastardized text derived from various fragments and sources ultimately originating from the Greek Gnostics and then filtering through pagan groups and sects throughout the Graeco-Roman empire during the three centuries after Christ. It is interesting to see how elements in the CH parallel many of those in the Christian Bible, which was also largely written by Greeks during the first and second centuries after Christ. The differences, however, are most significant, in that the gnostics retained an eclectic spirit using knowledge and wisdom gained from various places and religious traditions, including those of Persia and the East, along with Judaism, Stoicism, and Platonism, infusing it all with a pseudo-Egyptian framework. (ref. F. Yates, Giordano Bruno and the Hermetic Tradtion)

It wasn’t long before influential Christian writers like Lactantius and Augustine looked to the CH as a source of Christianity, treating of Hermes Trismegistus as a real person who foresaw the coming of Christianity, because he spoke of the Son of God and of the Word. Later on in the fifteenth century, when a copy of the CH came into the hands of Cosimo de’ Medici, Ficino was ordered to stop translating the Dialogues of Plato in order to translate the CH. That was essentially the birth of Neoplatonism. The philosophers and would be maguses couldn’t get enough of it, thinking it to be the ultimate ur-text from Egypt, the oldest known source of all religions, particularly Christianity, and of Greek philosophy, since it also contained traces of those schools as well.

The online intro says:

This literature came out of the same religious and philosophical ferment that produced Neoplatonism, Christianity, and the diverse collection of teachings usually lumped together under the label “Gnosticism”: a ferment which had its roots in the impact of Platonic thought on the older traditions of the Hellenized East. There are obvious connections and common themes linking each of these traditions, although each had its own answer to the major questions of the time.

The treatises we now call the Corpus Hermeticum were collected into a single volume in Byzantine times, and a copy of this volume survived to come into the hands of Lorenzo de Medici’s agents in the fifteenth century. Marsilio Ficino, the head of the Florentine Academy, was pulled off the task of translating the dialogues of Plato in order to put the Corpus Hermeticum into Latin first. His translation saw print in 1463, and was reprinted at least twenty-two times over the next century and a half.

The treatises divide up into several groups. The first (CH I), the “Poemandres”, is the account of a revelation given to Hermes Trismegistus by the being Poemandres or “Man-Shepherd”, an expression of the universal Mind. The next eight (CH II-IX), the “General Sermons”, are short dialogues or lectures discussing various basic points of Hermetic philosophy. There follows the “Key” (CH X), a summary of the General Sermons, and after this a set of four tractates - “Mind unto Hermes”, “About the Common Mind”, “The Secret Sermon on the Mountain”, and the “Letter of Hermes to Asclepius” (CH XI-XIV) - touching on the more mystical aspects of Hermeticism. The collection is rounded off by the “Definitions of Asclepius unto King Ammon” (CH XV), which may be composed of three fragments of longer works.
[…]
The Corpus Hermeticum landed like a well-aimed bomb amid the philosophical systems of late medieval Europe. Quotations from the Hermetic literature in the Church Fathers (who were never shy of leaning on pagan sources to prove a point) accepted a traditional chronology which dated “Hermes Trismegistus,” as a historical figure, to the time of Moses. As a result, the Hermetic tractates’ borrowings from Jewish scripture and Platonic philosophy were seen, in the Renaissance, as evidence that the Corpus Hermeticum had anticipated and influenced both. The Hermetic philosophy was seen as a primordial wisdom tradition, identified with the “Wisdom of the Egyptians” mentioned in Exodus and lauded in Platonic dialogues such as the Timaeus. It thus served as a useful club in the hands of intellectual rebels who sought to break the stranglehold of Aristotelian scholasticism on the universities at this time.

It also provided one of the most important weapons to another major rebellion of the age - the attempt to reestablish magic as a socially acceptable spiritual path in the Christian West. Another body of literature attributed to Hermes Trismegistus was made up of astrological, alchemical and magical texts. If, as the scholars of the Renaissance believed, Hermes was a historical person who had written all these things, and if Church Fathers had quoted his philosophical works with approval, and if those same works could be shown to be wholly in keeping with some definitions of Christianity, then the whole structure of magical Hermeticism could be given a second-hand legitimacy in a Christian context.

This didn’t work, of course; the radical redefinition of Western Christianity that took place in the Reformation and Counter-Reformation hardened doctrinal barriers to the point that people were being burned in the sixteenth century for practices that were considered evidences of devoutness in the fourteenth. The attempt, though, made the language and concepts of the Hermetic tractates central to much of post-medieval magic in the West.

The devout white magician Pico della Mirandola managed to escape the heretic burnings, but not poor Giordano Bruno, who developed an amazing system of mnemonics based on Neoplatonist magic and astrology. The whole era is just fascinating, and Neoplatonist philosophy and writing – the whole magical system – infuses all the great art. Just wonderful stuff, and all built on a huge mistake in dating and all kinds of errors and misconceptions, yet somehow it speaks to greatness in the way the mind works.

[matthatter]

Very interesting post Jonquil.

The devout white magician Pico della Mirandola managed to escape the heretic burnings, but not poor Giordano Bruno, who developed an amazing system of mnemonics based on Neoplatonist magic and astrology. The whole era is just fascinating, and Neoplatonist philosophy and writing – the whole magical system – infuses all the great art. Just wonderful stuff, and all built on a huge mistake in dating and all kinds of errors and misconceptions, yet somehow it speaks to greatness in the way the mind works.

I really want to read up on all this now!

[jonquil]

@matthatter

Very interesting post Jonquil.

The devout white magician Pico della Mirandola managed to escape the heretic burnings, but not poor Giordano Bruno, who developed an amazing system of mnemonics based on Neoplatonist magic and astrology. The whole era is just fascinating, and Neoplatonist philosophy and writing – the whole magical system – infuses all the great art. Just wonderful stuff, and all built on a huge mistake in dating and all kinds of errors and misconceptions, yet somehow it speaks to greatness in the way the mind works.

I really want to read up on all this now!

Yeah, I can’t get enough of this stuff, either. And by the way, Frances Yates is the best source, a truly great historian. She and Barbara Tuchman are in the same league. They make you love history. After you read Yates, you will never look at Renaissance art the same way again.

[Poimandres]

So I apologize for posting the horrible translation in the PDF, miserably done. You should definitely pick this book up in the library to get the proper translations by Marvin Meyer and Willis Barnstone.

As for this:

why don’t you try to sum it up here?

I’ll at least sum up the elements for you, then you can piece together the puzzle yourself. Any terminology you still have trouble comparing into real life, please feel free to mention them.

Shadowy Coiled Snake
In another book, Yaldabaoth/First Ruler was created by Sophia, or rather “Wisdom” translated from Greek. Basically, at a certain point, the Wisdom of the “Boundless Vista” could not contain itself and an anomaly occurred. Because she had not the spirit, the male energy, there was only her mind involved (Although it’s not fair at all to personify any of these deities in any shape or form, it gives good meaning in the description). Therefore, the shadowy snake was simply a mind without wisdom, and it did not represent anything, except that it was of the same substance of that Vista. We shall call it the Vista, for there is nothing there but the formlessness of creation.

The Watery Substance
This is the effect of time. Generally put, as one of the 4 elements Water is very crucial in the cyclical nature of things. Time begins because of the allowance for expansion of the universe, and the Water is representative of the blank nature of that evolution. Instead of returning to the nothingness of pure creation (It cannot, but such is the way of things), it explodes into Jealousy (The Fire, as described in the Secret Book of John) and begins to create the Earth element.

The Fire and the Screech
The Fire is the heat of the universe. Before it is separated from the Water, it is so hot the stars are still in formation, and at the moment where the Word, the “Voice of Light”, comes down, life begins, and so does death. The stars ignite (The fire shot up like a pillar, with the word suspended from it) and life begins to form in the Earth element, which is still intermingled with the Water. The screech was the sounds of the universe expanding, and steam pressure pushing molecules apart.

The Word
Anomalous events happen regularily. You just never know one until you see it, when the illogical choices of our minds form the word, for it is of one substance with boundless creation. In the case of the rulers, the mind forms the spheres, and their government is fate.

The Spheres
Understand that with Water and Earth separated from the Wind and the Fire, thus begins the age of the union of Physical and Metaphysical. Spheres of intelligence are created, and since the entire universe is one giant single cellular organism, the consciousness is shared amongst its members in the Earth as well as with the Mind. So the spheres simply reflect what is in the Earth and the Water with the power of the Word. In OUR minds, though we think we are not of one mind, we are principally the same in this manner. Cycles in the Earth begin to emerge, as to cycles in the different personas within the new Earth. The separation of Water from Earth is the symbol of the Universe finally coming to rest in that it has finished creating planets, and is now merely subject to evolution and the laws of conservation.

I think, mirroring these new definitions into the translation, you will find much wisdom there. How goes the trial now?

[Jayson]

Churro the Viscous:
If you are going to respond, respond with content or do not respond at all.

In order to produce high quality philosophical discussions we expect the posts to contain a good level of courtesy and respect.

Board rules: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=139918&p=1584013#p1584013

[Poimandres]

You don’t think, or you don’t know? Re-read and understand the archetype, my friend. I did not call water itself an element. Like I said, I understand the archetypes, not the physical nature of them.

I also agree, you don’t think.

[Poimandres]

But based around your persona, I would doubt you want anyone else to understand either.

[jonquil]

@Churro the Viscous

i’m not going to reread something that states that water is an element.
i’m not going to try to understand it.

I think an understanding of the time in which the Poimandres was written might help clarify what is meant by “element” here. We’re looking at the second part of the Corpus Hermeticum, written roughly around the second or third century after the reputed life of Christ, derived from the learnings and teachings of Greek Gnostics.

In ancient thought, in astrology and alchemy, the four elements were: earth, air, fire, and water. There was also a fifth element or quintessence (after “quint” meaning “fifth”) called Aether in ancient Greece. This view of the elements dominated natural philosophy (science) for around two thousand years, beginning with Empedocles and ending with the Age of Reason and the scientific method of the new rationalism. Nowadays the four elements are called: solid, liquid, gas and plasma, but do not carry the same magic as the original four, which even the Renaissance Neoplatonist maguses held valuable.

As I noted previously, the Poimandres reads much like a Gnostic or hermetic Genesis. You can see the way mystical and philosophical thought has spread throughout the two centuries immediately following the reign of Augustus, when there were many diverse sects and groups throughout the Graeco-Roman empire. Since both the Corpus Hermeticum and large parts of the Bible were written by Greeks, it is not surprising that there would be some striking similarities. However, what’s truly striking are the differences, particularly the idea of Poimandres as the Mind of God. The mystical influences in the Poimandres are wide and varied and most enlightening. The energetic component, however, uses rather generalized language with regard to creation, meaning that anyone could read the “Big Bang” into it but that in actuality it simply describes origin in terms of any ordinary life experience with light, water, earth, and air organized by the psyche in that order. Yes, it’s possible to consider the psyche as a holder of the great memory of creation certainly, along with other memories, and that might be the case; but I don’t think that notion could ever be proven based either on the text or through the scientific method. Even so, there are other ancient texts as well that contain creation stories and myths that seem to eerily point to scientific advances in what we know of the universe and the quantum world. These things cannot be ignored and prove very amazing.

[Poimandres]

@Churro the Viscous

i’m not going to reread something that states that water is an element.
i’m not going to try to understand it.

it’s hard to be condescending when you’ve already made a fool of yourself, so your snideness falls flat.

Yeah, but it’s retarded when you can’t understand that any given element from the periodic table of elements is a combination of Fire and Earth. The only reason you see them as different is because they’re vibrating at different speeds. You’re a little behind on the times, viscous, I’m almost positive Quantum Physics is about to break this barrier.

But let’s discuss Elements, if you wish. What IS an element to you, at the basest definition, and in what manner does one expect them to operate?

These things cannot be ignored and prove very amazing.

And they should be thoroughly investigated by Gnostic Scientists. At least they won’t say “Oh, well that’s irrational, let’s not make sense out of it, ever, even if I’M wrong.”

[jonquil]

@Poimandres

@Churro the Viscous

i’m not going to reread something that states that water is an element.
i’m not going to try to understand it.

it’s hard to be condescending when you’ve already made a fool of yourself, so your snideness falls flat.

Yeah, but it’s retarded when you can’t understand that any given element from the periodic table of elements is a combination of Fire and Earth. The only reason you see them as different is because they’re vibrating at different speeds. You’re a little behind on the times, viscous, I’m almost positive Quantum Physics is about to break this barrier.

But let’s discuss Elements, if you wish. What IS an element to you, at the basest definition, and in what manner does one expect them to operate?

Water is only an element in terms of the ancient view of the four main elements back in the time of the Graeco-Roman empire when the Poimandres was written. It is not considered an element now in that it is not listed on the periodic table of elements; only its molecular constituents are listed as elements, meaning hydrogen and oxygen.

Oldtime alchemy, astrology, and natural philosopy is considerably different from the science that replaced it once the Age of Reason started with Newton. There is an evolution in some of the terminology, but the actual science, the rational thinking around it, and the way it works has completely changed. I think that a reader of the Poimandres would be well advised to deal with that book in terms of the worldview of that time and not try to correlate it with modern scientific or cosmological discoveries and theories in any sort of specialized sense. They best you can hope for is to find some general correlation. It’s particularly important to realize that the Big Bang theory that arose fifty years ago has itself changed considerably and is even in the process of being replaced due to newer research and discoveries. Thus, it would probably be better to look on the Poimandres as an ancient artefact in the history of thought and mysticism and not as an actual source or precursor for modern scientific discoveries and theories. The real interest in the CH for me is the way it compares to other texts, like the bible, and the way it combines a variety of beliefs and sources from far and wide. There are some marvelous mystical teachings and insights that might well be correlated with theories of the mind and consciousness that have been developed up to this day, but again be warned about deriving too much in the way of science out of this.

@jonquil

These things cannot be ignored and prove very amazing.

@Poimandres

And they should be thoroughly investigated by Gnostic Scientists. At least they won’t say “Oh, well that’s irrational, let’s not make sense out of it, ever, even if I’M wrong.”

I’m not familiar with “Gnostic Scientists.” I believe that readers of some ancient texts, these readers also being knowledgeable of science and the advancements in physics and cosmology, have noticed some remarkable parallels. I expect that studying these texts along with the science would be a very fascinating and illuminating endeavor, no matter who undertook the study.

[Poimandres]

Let me explain it to you this way, churro. Life began with no real forms in it, just “information at a glance”. This is like our minds not thinking anything, just information at a glance. This is the MIND of our universe, as explained in the book of Poimandres. This is the super cell they say exploded to create the universe. It was formed to become a product of heat energy when the center of the universe collapsed on itself prior to the forming of our universe. The seed is the MIND, and KNOWLEDGE is the process of forming the seed.

So the heat energy is being pushed away from the center of the universe at this point after the explosion. The forming well of gravity pulls the heat energy (I suppose at this point I should say “The particles containing the heat energy”), which was being pushed away due to extreme forces of the explosion, back into the universe we know, and ignites giant gas clouds which expanded and took a shape after the big bang (Although this is not mentioned in Poimandres, this information can be found in many other Gnostic texts, but we’ll stick to Poimandres as closely as possible).

Life begins. The first signs of thought come forth, and as the general intelligence of the universe grows, i.e. cyclical natures begin to form around and within certain masses gathered within the universe, and structures form. Galaxies form. Stars and solar systems begin to form. The beginnings of the universe take form.

At this point, the heat energy is still flying here and there in between the forming planets, giving them life. In the spheres, or rather, the intelligent entity of the universe, radiation passes across planets and other places within the universe and interacts with the “primordial ooze”, whatever it may have been composed of at the time, perhaps the “God Particle” itself. Any way it goes, life is created, but as with all energy, as energy transfers between objects, the original stream gets messed up in the process. In this case, the “birds” are waves of energy floating across the universe, changing and evolving, and the “fish” are simply the processes of the effects of that energy, i.e. single cell organism evolution, as it is a transfer of energy in itself.

Then an odd thing happened. An anomaly came out of that energy, passing across the “primordial ooze”, and the first signs of what man would become came into life. After seeing mankinds first forefathers ever, the universe begins to mold him into what he wants to be, entering all the spheres of intelligence and receiving an attribute from each. Since these spheres, as we pointed out, are intelligent cyclical natures, it means that we evolved only because we got lucky. We had tools available to us that served our ability to survive better than the rest.

After evolving to a certain point, we see that the first questions about existence are coming into place. Obviously at the time we were well connected, whatever we actually were at the time, with the universe and its workings, and stress begins to develop over “Why?! Why?! Why?! Why!”. The first instance of self realization occurs, and the universe can be seen through simple observation. Man sees his potential future, the fairest of all forms, and dreams and dreams of having it. Eventually that stress is recorded in his genetic material, and eventually evolves into it (Possibly into what we are now, but this was a long time ago, so it’s unclear).

After this point, the universe seems to be observant of this changing of pace. What effected this cycle is unknown, but it seems to be that by cyclical nature itself, evolution seemed to deem that although “man possessed 7 natures”, it was better to break down each man into being most like one of them at a time. Time fertilized nature, and the cyclical nature of the universe developed the process. Prehistoric man continues to evolve bearing a mind as well.

With life evolving all around it (The book seems to point out that we evolved from cells repeatedly, possibly through early forms of ejaculate?), the world suddenly divides into two. Male and female are created, and understanding (The holy speech “god”, which is the mind, says after doing this) is immediately had by all creatures. The book goes on to say that we should have the capability to grow without needing intercourse, though intercourse multiplies a race, and that we are capable of controlling our mortality through love of mind rather than body, which is of course talking about reaching nirvana, the state of NO stress.

Do you see water as a crucial element in our existence? Do not confuse the words, for in the same way you understand Hydrogen as an element, being crucial to the formings of life, so is Earth/Matter itself, being crucial to the formings of life. And like planetary rotation, being crucial to the formings of life, so is Fire/Intelligence, being crucial to the formings of life. And like Heat is crucial to the formings of life, so is Air/Energy, being crucial to the formings of life. And like Cold is crucial to the formings of life, so is Water/Time, being crucial to the formings of life.

And all these things are also crucial in the formings of Death, which brings the option for Life.

If you want to reach the spheres in your mind, observe the later discourse within the book of Poimandres. It will tell you how to meditate on it properly. Hopefully my explanation helped, I was hoping not to have to dig into the back of my brain but now I show you it’s possible in all cases, to understand all. This is wisdom, which requires no knowledge.

[jonquil]

@Poimandres

Life began with no real forms in it, just “information at a glance”. This is like our minds not thinking anything, just information at a glance. This is the MIND of our universe, as explained in the book of Poimandres. This is the super cell they say exploded to create the universe. It was formed to become a product of heat energy when the center of the universe collapsed on itself prior to the forming of our universe. The seed is the MIND, and KNOWLEDGE is the process of forming the seed.

Give us some quotes from the Poimandres that show this view of how life began, this view of mind, a super cell exploding, the center of the universe collapsing on itself prior to the forming of our universe, and how the seed is the mind and knowledge is the process of forming the seed. That would be a total of six quotes. I want to see exactly how this is stated in the Poimandres and how you came to those six conclusions. Right now they are only unsubstantiated, eccentric assertions.

@Poimandres

So the heat energy is being pushed away from the center of the universe at this point after the explosion. The forming well of gravity pulls the heat energy (I suppose at this point I should say “The particles containing the heat energy”), which was being pushed away due to extreme forces of the explosion, back into the universe we know, and ignites giant gas clouds which expanded and took a shape after the big bang (Although this is not mentioned in Poimandres, this information can be found in many other Gnostic texts, but we’ll stick to Poimandres as closely as possible).

Much confusion here. What exactly IS in the Poimandres, and what is not? Provide quotes please. Substantiate your assertions.

@Poimandres

Life begins. The first signs of thought come forth, and as the general intelligence of the universe grows, i.e. cyclical natures begin to form around and within certain masses gathered within the universe, and structures form. Galaxies form. Stars and solar systems begin to form. The beginnings of the universe take form.

Is any of this in the Poimandres? If so, provide evidence. If not, then we must assume that they are just unrelated statements taken from a general knowledge gained from modern science confused and mixed in with vague notions concerning thought and whatever is meant by “cyclical natures.”

@Poimandres

At this point, the heat energy is still flying here and there in between the forming planets, giving them life. In the spheres, or rather, the intelligent entity of the universe, radiation passes across planets and other places within the universe and interacts with the “primordial ooze”, whatever it may have been composed of at the time, perhaps the “God Particle” itself. Any way it goes, life is created, but as with all energy, as energy transfers between objects, the original stream gets messed up in the process. In this case, the “birds” are waves of energy floating across the universe, changing and evolving, and the “fish” are simply the processes of the effects of that energy, i.e. single cell organism evolution, as it is a transfer of energy in itself.

One thing is true, life is created as an ongoing energetic and evolutionary process. How that happened in the far beginnings even back to the ur-time is represented very vaguely and generally in most non-scientific terms in both the Poimandres and the bible.

What you are saying here, though, has nothing to do with sacred texts per se; rather, it seems to be some sort of conglomeration put together from things you have read in popular science books or articles, mixed in with symbols from ancient texts, like “spheres,” “birds,” and “fish,” with a bizarre attempt to associate these symbols with ideas from modern science, evolution, and new-age mumbo jumbo like “intelligent entity of the universe.”

If you want us to make sense of what you are trying to say, you have to organize your thoughts logically, with evidence. So far, you haven’t even come close to doing that.

@Poimandres

Then an odd thing happened. An anomaly came out of that energy, passing across the “primordial ooze”, and the first signs of what man would become came into life. After seeing mankinds first forefathers ever, the universe begins to mold him into what he wants to be, entering all the spheres of intelligence and receiving an attribute from each. Since these spheres, as we pointed out, are intelligent cyclical natures, it means that we evolved only because we got lucky. We had tools available to us that served our ability to survive better than the rest.

One thing is true here. Odd things and anomalies do occur. Other than that, do your thoughts relate either to the Poimandres or to the way science regards evolution? Also, you seem to think of humanity as strictly male. Too bad.

@Poimandres

After evolving to a certain point, we see that the first questions about existence are coming into place. Obviously at the time we were well connected, whatever we actually were at the time, with the universe and its workings, and stress begins to develop over “Why?! Why?! Why?! Why!”. The first instance of self realization occurs, and the universe can be seen through simple observation. Man sees his potential future, the fairest of all forms, and dreams and dreams of having it. Eventually that stress is recorded in his genetic material, and eventually evolves into it (Possibly into what we are now, but this was a long time ago, so it’s unclear).

Can all humans see their “potential future,” or just men? Do you ever think to include all humans in any of your thoughts about origins and processes over time, or will you just continue to be completely sexist? In any case, all this represents is one eccentric list of groundless assertions with no basis in reality. I would be much more accessible to dealing with these thoughts as opinions. Nothing here is in the least bit obvious to me. As far as I can tell, all of it excludes women anyway.

@Poimandres

After this point, the universe seems to be observant of this changing of pace. What effected this cycle is unknown, but it seems to be that by cyclical nature itself, evolution seemed to deem that although “man possessed 7 natures”, it was better to break down each man into being most like one of them at a time. Time fertilized nature, and the cyclical nature of the universe developed the process. Prehistoric man continues to evolve bearing a mind as well.

More sexism, and more confused nonsense expressed as assertions.

@Poimandres

With life evolving all around it (The book seems to point out that we evolved from cells repeatedly, possibly through early forms of ejaculate?), the world suddenly divides into two. Male and female are created, and understanding (The holy speech “god”, which is the mind, says after doing this) is immediately had by all creatures. The book goes on to say that we should have the capability to grow without needing intercourse, though intercourse multiplies a race, and that we are capable of controlling our mortality through love of mind rather than body, which is of course talking about reaching nirvana, the state of NO stress.

Where exactly does the book point out that we evolved from cells repeatedly, possibly through early forms of ejaculate? Quote it.

In fact, give a quote for each assertion here. That would be a total of seven quotes. Introduce each quote with the assertion it would support.

@Poimandres

Do you see water as a crucial element in our existence? Do not confuse the words, for in the same way you understand Hydrogen as an element, being crucial to the formings of life, so is Earth/Matter itself, being crucial to the formings of life. And like planetary rotation, being crucial to the formings of life, so is Fire/Intelligence, being crucial to the formings of life. And like Heat is crucial to the formings of life, so is Air/Energy, being crucial to the formings of life. And like Cold is crucial to the formings of life, so is Water/Time, being crucial to the formings of life.

And all these things are also crucial in the formings of Death, which brings the option for Life.

If you want to reach the spheres in your mind, observe the later discourse within the book of Poimandres. It will tell you how to meditate on it properly. Hopefully my explanation helped, I was hoping not to have to dig into the back of my brain but now I show you it’s possible in all cases, to understand all. This is wisdom, which requires no knowledge.

Here you are using the word “element” in its more generic sense, meaning component. But that is not how you used it before, so that’s cheating. I’ve already clarified this problem, however, previously.

[Poimandres]

All I can say is that nobody really took me seriously here.

Jonquil, the only thing I did was take my understanding of the metaphors, skim through the Poimandres book, evolve my understanding on the spot so I could try to explain what the book is saying. I’m a little pre-occupied tonight, I’ll be back tomorrow to do as you asked. But in case your midnight curiosity gets to you, just go paragraph for paragraph with my text and the first texts of the Poimandres. I pretty much completely re-wrote it (Because it’s so basic) in terms I THOUGHT you guys could understand. I dunno, maybe I write wierd. Maybe I like writing weird like that. That’s sudden evolution. That’s the power of the spheres.

But you have to wait till tomorrow to understand that Understand this, no wisdom requires knowledge to exist. We strive for knowledge, but knowledge is either right or wrong, whereas wisdom is perfection in all knowledge.

[Poimandres]

Sorry for taking so long, I’ve been procrastinating This is how the post will go:

@Poimandres

What I mean by this…

@Poimandres

…Is in reference to this!

Let’s begin.

@Poimandres

@Poimandres

“If you have understood, tell me; why do they deserve death who are in death?”

“Because what first gives rise to each person’s body is the hateful darkness, from which comes the watery nature, from which the body was constituted in the sensible cosmos, from which death drinks.”

“Truly you have understood. But why is it that ‘he who has understood himself advances towards god,’ as god’s discourse has it?”

“Because,” I said, “The father of all things was constituted of light and life, and from him the man came to be.”

@Poimandres

Life began with no real forms in it, just “information at a glance”. This is like our minds not thinking anything, just information at a glance. This is the MIND of our universe, as explained in the book of Poimandres. This is the super cell they say exploded to create the universe. It was formed to become a product of heat energy when the center of the universe collapsed on itself prior to the forming of our universe. The seed is the MIND, and KNOWLEDGE is the process of forming the seed.

@Poimandres

“I saw an endless vision in which everything became light - clear and joyful - and in seeing the vision I came to love it. After a little while, darkness arose separately and descended - fearful and gloomy - coiling sinuously so that it looked to me like a snake”

@Poimandres

So the heat energy is being pushed away from the center of the universe at this point after the explosion. The forming well of gravity pulls the heat energy (I suppose at this point I should say “The particles containing the heat energy”), which was being pushed away due to extreme forces of the explosion, back into the universe we know, and ignites giant gas clouds which expanded and took a shape after the big bang (Although this is not mentioned in Poimandres, this information can be found in many other Gnostic texts, but we’ll stick to Poimandres as closely as possible).

@Poimandres

“Then the darkness changed into something of a watery nature, indescribably agitated and smoking like a fire; it produced an unspeakable wailing roar. Then an articulate cry like the voice of fire came forth from it. But from the light…A holy word mounted upon the watery nature, and untempered fire leapt up from the watery nature to the height above. The fire was nimble and piercing and active as well, and because the air was light it followed after spirit and rose up to the fire away from earth and water so that it seemed suspended from the fire.”

@Poimandres

Life begins. The first signs of thought come forth, and as the general intelligence of the universe grows, i.e. cyclical natures begin to form around and within certain masses gathered within the universe, and structures form. Galaxies form. Stars and solar systems begin to form. The beginnings of the universe take form.

@Poimandres

“Then the darkness changed into something of a watery nature, indescribably agitated and smoking like a fire; it produced an unspeakable wailing roar. Then an articulate cry like the voice of fire came forth from it. But from the light…A holy word mounted upon the watery nature, and untempered fire leapt up from the watery nature to the height above. The fire was nimble and piercing and active as well, and because the air was light it followed after spirit and rose up to the fire away from earth and water so that it seemed suspended from the fire.”

@Poimandres

At this point, the heat energy is still flying here and there in between the forming planets, giving them life. In the spheres, or rather, the intelligent entity of the universe, radiation passes across planets and other places within the universe and interacts with the “primordial ooze”, whatever it may have been composed of at the time, perhaps the “God Particle” itself. Any way it goes, life is created, but as with all energy, as energy transfers between objects, the original stream gets messed up in the process. In this case, the “birds” are waves of energy floating across the universe, changing and evolving, and the “fish” are simply the processes of the effects of that energy, i.e. single cell organism evolution, as it is a transfer of energy in itself.

@Poimandres

"From the counsel of god which, having taken in the word and having seen the beautiful cosmos through its own elements and its progeny of souls. The mind who is god, being androgyne and existing as life and light, by speaking gave birth to a second mind, a craftsman, who, as god of fire and spirit, crafted seven governors; they encompass the sensible world in circles, and their government is called fate.

From the elements that weigh downwards, the word of god leapt straight up to the pure craftwork of nature and united with the craftsman-mind (For the word was of the same substance). The weighty elements of nature were left behind, bereft of reason, so as to be mere matter. The craftsman-mind, together with the word, encompassing the circles and whirling them about with a rush, turned his craftworks about, letting them turn from an endless beginning to a limitless end, for where it starts it stops. Revolving as mind wished them to, the circles brought forth from the weighty elements living things without reason (For the no longer kept the word with them); and the air brought forth winged things; and the water things that swim. Earth and water had been separated from one another as mind wished, and Earth brought forth from herself the living things that she held within, four footed beasts and crawling things, wild animals and tame.“”

@Poimandres

Then an odd thing happened. An anomaly came out of that energy, passing across the “primordial ooze”, and the first signs of what man would become came into life. After seeing mankinds first forefathers ever, the universe begins to mold him into what he wants to be, entering all the spheres of intelligence and receiving an attribute from each. Since these spheres, as we pointed out, are intelligent cyclical natures, it means that we evolved only because we got lucky. We had tools available to us that served our ability to survive better than the rest.

@Poimandres

“Mind, the father of all, who is life and light, gave birth to a man like himself whom he loved as his own child. The man was most fair: He had the fathers image; and god, who was really in love with his own form, bestowed on him all his craftworks. And after the man had observed what the craftsman had created with the fathers help, he also wished to make some craftwork, and the father agreed to this. Entering the craftsmans sphere, where he was to have all authority, the man observed his brother’s craftworks; the governors loved the man, and each gave a share of his own order. Learning well their essence and sharing in their nature, the man wished to break through the circumference of the circles to observe the rule of the one given power over the fire.”

@Poimandres

After evolving to a certain point, we see that the first questions about existence are coming into place. Obviously at the time we were well connected, whatever we actually were at the time, with the universe and its workings, and stress begins to develop over “Why?! Why?! Why?! Why!”. The first instance of self realization occurs, and the universe can be seen through simple observation. Man sees his potential future, the fairest of all forms, and dreams and dreams of having it. Eventually that stress is recorded in his genetic material, and eventually evolves into it (Possibly into what we are now, but this was a long time ago, so it’s unclear).

@Poimandres

"Having all authority over the cosmos of mortals and unreasoning animals, the man broke through the vault and stooped to look through the cosmic framework, thus displaying to lower nature the fair form of god. Nature smiled for love when she saw him whose fairness brings no surfeit and who holds in himself all the energy of the governors and the form of god, for in the water she saw the shape of the man’s fairest form and upon the Earth its shadow. When the man saw in the water the form like himself as it was in nature, he loved it and wished to inhabit it; wish and action came in the same moment, and he inhanbited the unreasoning form. Nature took hold of her beloved, hugged him all about and embraced him, for they were lovers.

Because of this, unlike any other living thing on earth, mankind is twofold - in the body mortal but immortal in the essential man. Even though he is immortal and has authority over all things, mankind is affected by mortality because he is subject to fate; thus, although man is above the cosmic framework, he became a slave within it. He is androgyne because he comes from an androgyne father, and he never sleeps because he comes from one who is sleepless. Yet love and sleep are his masters.

@Poimandres

After this point, the universe seems to be observant of this changing of pace. What effected this cycle is unknown, but it seems to be that by cyclical nature itself, evolution seemed to deem that although “man possessed 7 natures”, it was better to break down each man into being most like one of them at a time. Time fertilized nature, and the cyclical nature of the universe developed the process. Prehistoric man continues to evolve bearing a mind as well.

@Poimandres

And after this: “…o my mind. I love the word also.” i[/i]

Poimandres said: "This is the mystery that has been kept hidden until this very day. When nature made love with the man, she bore a wonder most wondrous. In him he had the nature of the cosmic framework of the seven, who are made of fire and spirit, as I told you, and without delay nature at once gave birth to the seven men, androgyne and exalted, whose natures were like those of the seven governors.

As I said, then, the birth of the seven was as follows. Earth was the female. Water did the fertilizing. Fire was the maturing force. Nature took spirit from the Ether and brought forth bodies in the shape of the man. From life and light the man became soul and mind; From life came soul, from light came mind, and all things in the cosmos of the senses remained thus a cycle ended and kinds of things began to be."

@Poimandres

With life evolving all around it (The book seems to point out that we evolved from cells repeatedly, possibly through early forms of ejaculate?), the world suddenly divides into two. Male and female are created, and understanding (The holy speech “god”, which is the mind, says after doing this) is immediately had by all creatures. The book goes on to say that we should have the capability to grow without needing intercourse, though intercourse multiplies a race, and that we are capable of controlling our mortality through love of mind rather than body, which is of course talking about reaching nirvana, the state of NO stress.

@Poimandres

“Hear the rest, the word you yearn to hear. When the cycle was completed, the bond among all things was sundered by the counsel of god. All living things, which had been androgyne, were sundered into two parts - humans along with them - and part of them became male, part likewise female. But god immediately spoke a holy speech: ‘Increase in increasing and multiply in multitude, all you creatures and craftworks, and let him who is mindful recognize that he is immortal, that desire is the cause of death, and let him recognize all that exists,’”

Now, I will do the meditation which is described within the book. Although my interpretations may be incorrect, I WILL return to this thread to continue the discussion. Hopefully it’s still here. Please, continue to describe the incomplete thoughts within this “DOS-course”, if you will. When I come back, I will illuminate all of them.

And please, no more facepalm. You have suffered enough death in this life in this manner, do not continue to bring it upon yourself.

But of course,

[The_Paineful_Truth]

There is no science in it (Poimandres poetic expansion of Genesis).

[jonquil]

@The Paineful Truth

There is no science in it (Poimandres poetic expansion of Genesis).

There is no certainty that the Poimandres was a segue off of the biblical book of Genesis itself. It’s possible, but it’s just as likely – or even more so – that it was written as part of a much wider tradition of mysticism, including Jewish, Egyptian, Greek, and Far-eastern. I agree that there is no science in it from our modern perspective, though it does contain elements of natural philosophy and mysticism.

[Poimandres]

Oh yeah, of course. I mean, I just talk for the sake of talking all the time. There’s no logic behind it at all.