I think the bible speaks for itself:
Why would god need to be jealous, if he were the only god?
God isn’t jealous of another god, but the possibility that there could be one. Have you read/seen Othello? Othello becomes so jealous of an affair that his wife might be having that he kills her. Even though there is no affair, and Othello has no real evidence, the idea makes him do reckless and cruel things. This is saying that god will get mad if someone suggests that another god could exist.
You’ve got yourself trapped in a logic circle though, if god is all knowing, he knows that there is no other god, and that a belief in other gods is futile.
But, god is none of the “omni-” things, god is based on human traits, much like any other society of this time. “god” would be jealous if you left the tribe to worship the asherah poles.
God is jealous for the attention and worship of his people. Jealousy by itself does not say anything about the object of that jealousy. Many women are jealous of the attention their husband pays to his car/bike/boat. This does not mean that the car/bike/boat is another woman does it?
It would if I implied that those other boats exist.
Verse 14:
Do not worship any other god.
If I told you not to waste your life studying little green men from mars, does my statement mean that I personally believe they exist? I think not.
If I’m a venutian and tell you not to believe in martians, does that not imply the possibility of existence at least?
No, it doesn’t actually.
ok ned… let’s take this one step further.
God is a martian. He tells you to believe in ONE martian, but no other martians. We have no ability to tell if he’s telling the truth as to whether there are other martians, just “his word”.
So let’s look at the verses in that light:
11 Obey what I command you today. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 12 Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. 13 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles. [a] 14 Do not worship any other martian, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous Martian.
If you look at in that light, the other tribes are simply worshipping other martians. And here comes the “jealous” one, telling us that all of our attention should only go to him. He doesn’t imply their non-existence, he implies that all our faith belongs to him.
15 "Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their martians and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. 16 And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their martians, they will lead your sons to do the same.
So god is telling us that we should only sacrifice ourselves to him… The Martian. He tells us he is greater than the other martians, but … the other martians claim they are also the greatest.
(we just don’t have their “holy book”.)
I think it’s saying that god wants all the attention, and he doesn’t want it wasted on other false “martians” The other “martians” are just imitations of the real deal, and god doesn’t want them to get praise that only god deserves. I guess Othello was a bad example cuz he wasn’t omnipotent…
Scythekain
I don't know if you can read that kind of 'implication' into something that's not in it's first language. For the ancient Jews, was it gramatically correct to refer to other tribes idols as 'gods', even if you recognize they are lumps of wood or stone with no spiritual significance? I think there's good reason to believe so. Check out Exodus 32:1-4
Exd 32:1 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for [as for] this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
Exd 32:2 And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which [are] in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring [them] unto me.
Exd 32:3 And all the people brake off the golden earrings which [were] in their ears, and brought [them] unto Aaron.
Exd 32:4 And he received [them] at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These [be] thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
So, here you see the Israelites referring to an idol as a 'god' before it's even been fashioned- it seems clear to me that for them, the word 'god' was perfectly acceptable as a reference to a man-made figure with no real existence or spiritual significance. So Ned is right, in those times, saying "Have no other gods before me," would not carry an implication that those other gods are real.
While the biblical verses may refer to other 'gods" common in the region these verses were written, could it be that those statements were saying, “don’t anthrpomorphize that which is.” Creating a mental image, base on words like “father”, is idolatry of the worst sort, because it is in the mind. I need a scholar here, but wasn’t one of the ancient Hebrew words for God, “He who has no name”? Is naming and creating a mental image of the old bearded gentleman in a flowing white robe any less idolatry than a golden calf? Do we not create a “graven image” in the mind?
I would think so, and from what I understand of jewish tradition they try to avoid such memes.
Then the book is of little use to us isn’t it?
I see where you’re going with the graven “gods”, but I think redaction has removed alot of the reference to the “council” of gods. The very fact that the early hebrew “recognized” these other gods, makes me think they though of YHWH, as “high god.”.
Let me show you with an area that is less redacted.
The 1st of the 2 creations stories:
Genesis 1:26 Then God(Elohim) said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
The translation here I think is flawed… the word for God is “Elohim” which is plural. (El, is singular.)
The same is true in another spot, and was written later. (it refers to god’s name, YHWH.), but still YHWH, refers to “US”, the common modern interpretation of this is that “the lord” is speaking about his angels. I think the stories refer to the “lord god” speaking to the lesser gods.
5 But the LORD(YHWH) came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. 6 The LORD(YHWH) said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”
I think another modern interpretation is that “the hebrews had many words for God.” I think a more correct stance would be, “the hebrews had many words for the lord god, and his servant gods.”
In this note,
“Though shall have no other Gods(Elohim) before me.”
That is clearly referring to the false gods you are talking about Uccisore, as well as lesser gods. YHWH, refers to himself as “Lord of Elohim”.
In some places this is another modern interpretation, “angels”…
Scythekain
Refering only to the English is of very little use to the kinds of things you’re trying to do, yes.
This sounds like a seperate point to me. I’ll look into it. For now, what I want to emphasize is that it was natural for Jews of Moses’ time to refer to false, graven images as ‘gods’ with no implication about their existence as spiritual entities. I’ve seen the Commandment used in the way you tried to use it enough times that I’d like to put that accusation to bed before I move on to something else.
okay, but monotheism didnt’ come out of thin air Uccisore… It was a gradual development much like any and all beliefs. For example, did you know that Circumcision was practiced by the egyptians dating back to at least 3000 BC?
The fact that the jews were polytheistic with a high god is obvious, as the books become more current (and redactors add their spin) we see a move away from adonai, EL, and elohim, to YHWH.
During that transition, YHWH was EL of Elohim. The high lord of gods.
that’s why there’s two seperate creation stories, one is the earliest for the jews, probably a carry over of sumerian legends as has been suggested by historians. (the two tales are remarkeably similiar) and at that time they would’ve been referring to a “council” of gods. Hence we get plural language, like “let us” make man in “our” image.