Pope...Buddhism as a form of masturbation for the mind

from another forum I am on…

Pope of Rome has zero sympathy for other non-profit faiths
Tue Sep 19, 2006 09:42
66.81.160.18

‘A man with little sympathy for other faiths’

Pope Benedict is being portrayed as a naive, shy scholar who has accidentally antagonised two major world faiths in a matter of months. In fact he is a shrewd and ruthless operator, argues Madeleine Bunting - and he’s dangerous

Only 18 months into his papacy and already Pope Benedict XVI has stirred up unprecedented controversy. As the explanations and apologies pour out of the Vatican - and thousands of Catholic churches around the world - the questions about what exactly this man intended by quoting a 14th-century Byzantine emperor’s insult of the Prophet Mohammed have only multiplied.
Some say this was a case of naivety, of a scholarly theologian stumbling into the glare of a global media storm, blinking with surprise at the outrage he had inadvertently triggered. The learned man’s thoughtful reasoning, say some, has been misconstrued and distorted by troublemakers, and the context ignored.

But such explanations are unconvincing. This is a man who has been at the heart of one of the world’s multinational institutions for a very long time. He has been privy to how pontifical messages get distorted and magnified by a global media. Shy he may be, but no one has ever before accused this pope of being a remote theologian sitting in an ivory tower. On the contrary, he is a determined, shrewd operator whose track record indicates a man who is not remotely afraid of controversy. He has long been famous for his bruising, ruthless condemnation of those he disagrees with. Senior Catholic theologians such as the German Hans Kung are well familiar with the sharpness of his judgments.

But in the 18 months since Benedict was elected, the wary critics who have always feared this man were lulled into believing that office might have softened his abrasive edges. His encyclical on love won widespread acclaim and the pronouncement on homosexuality being incompatible with the priesthood (and its inference that homosexuals were to blame for the child sex abuse problems in the church) were explained away as an inheritance from Pope John Paul II’s reign.

But while the Pope has tried to build a more appealing public image, what has become increasingly clear is that this is a man with little sympathy or imagination for other religious faiths. Famously, the then Cardinal Ratzinger once referred to Buddhism as a form of masturbation for the mind - a remark still repeated among deeply offended Buddhists more than a decade after he said it. Even his apology at the weekend managed to bring Jews into the row.

In fact, Pope Benedict XVI’s short papacy has marked a significant departure from the previous pope’s stance on interreligious dialogue. John Paul II made some dramatic gestures to rally world religious leaders, the most famous being a gathering in Assisi of every world faith, even African animists, to pray for world peace. He felt keenly the terrible history of Catholic-Jewish relations, and having fought with the Polish resistance to save Jews in the second world war, John Paul II made unprecedented efforts to begin to heal centuries of hostility and indifference on the part of the Catholic church to Europe’s Jews. John Paul II also addressed himself to the ancient enmity between Muslims and Catholics; he apologised for the Crusades and was the first Pope to visit a mosque during a visit to Syria in 2001.

In contrast, Pope Benedict has managed to antagonise two major world faiths within a few months. The current anger of Muslims is comparable to the anger and disappointment felt by Jews after his visit to Auschwitz in May. He gave a long address at the site of the former concentration camp and failed to mention anti-semitism, and offered no apology - whether on behalf of his own country, Germany, or on behalf of the Catholic Church. He acknowledged he was a “son of the German people” … “but not guilty on that account”; he then launched into a highly controversial claim that a “ring of criminals” were responsible for nazism and that the German people were as much their victims as anyone else. This is an argument that has long been discredited in Germany as utterly inadequate in explaining how millions supported the Nazis. Given his own involvement in the Hitler Youth movement as a boy, and his refusal to make a clean breast of the Vatican’s acquiescence in the horrors of Nazism by opening its archives to historians, this was a shabby moment in Catholic history. Not for this pope those dramatic, epoch-defining gestures that made the last Pope such a significant global figure.

Even worse, in his Auschwitz address, he managed to argue in a long theological exposition that the real victims of the Holocaust were God and Christianity. As one commentator put it, he managed to claim that Jews were the “themselves bit players - bystanders at their own extermination. The true victim was a metaphysical one.” This theological treatise bears the same characteristics as last week’s Regensburg lecture; put at its most charitable, they are too clever by half. More plainly speaking, they indicate a deep arrogance rooted in a blinkered Catholic triumphalism which is utterly out of place in the 21st century.

But if his visit to Auschwitz disappointed many and failed to resolve outstanding resentments about the murky role of German Catholicism, this latest incident seems even worse. Quoting Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologos, he said: “Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.” It was a gratuitous reawakening of the most entrenched and self-serving of western prejudices - that Muslims have a unique proclivity to violence, a claim that has no basis in history or in current world events (a fact that still eludes too many westerners). Even more bewildering is the fact that his choice of quotation from Manuel II Paleologos, the 14th-century Byzantine emperor, was so insulting of the Prophet. Even the most cursory knowledge of dialogue with Islam teaches - and as a Vatican Cardinal, Pope Benedict XVI would have learned this long ago - that reverence for the Prophet is a non-negotiable. What unites all Muslims is a passionate devotion and commitment to protecting the honour of Muhammad. Given the scale of the offence, the carefully worded apology, actually, gives little ground; he recognises that Muslims have been offended and that he was only quoting, but there is no regret at using such an inappropriate comment or the deep historic resonances it stirs up.

By an uncanny coincidence the legendary Italian journalist Oriana Fallaci died last week. No one connected the two events, but the Pope had already run into controversy in Italy by inviting the rabid Islamophobe to a private audience just months ago. This is the journalist who published a bestseller in 2001 which amounted to a diatribe of invective against Islam. This is the woman who was only too happy to fling out comments such as “Muslims breed like rats” and “the increasing presence of Muslims in Italy and Europe is directly proportional to our loss of freedom.” At the time of her papal audience, Fallaci’s ranting against Islam had landed her in court and there was outrage at the Pope’s insensitive invitation. The Pope refused to backtrack and insisted the meeting was purely “pastoral”.

Put last week’s lecture in Bavaria and the Fallaci audience alongside his vocal opposition to Turkish membership of the EU, and the picture isn’t pretty. On one of the biggest and most volatile issues of our day - the perceived clash between the west and the Muslim world - the Pope seems to have abdicated his papal role of arbitrator, and taken up the arms in a rerun of a medieval fantasy.

An elderly Catholic nun has already been killed in Somalia, perhaps in retaliation for the Pope’s remarks; churches have been attacked in the West Bank. How is this papal stupidity going to play out in countries such as Nigeria, where the tensions between Catholics and Muslims frequently flare into riots and death? Or other countries such as Pakistan, where tiny Catholic communities are already beleaguered? Or the Muslim minorities in Catholic countries such as the Philippines - how comfortable do they feel this week?

Two lines of thought emerge from this mess. The first is that the Pope’s personal authority has been irrevocably damaged; how now could he ever present himself as a figure of global moral authority and a peacemaker after this? At the weekend, a message was read out from Cardinal Murphy O’Connor at all masses in Catholic churches in England; he spoke of the regret at any offence caused and urged good relations between Catholics and Muslims. For a church that prides itself on taking centuries to respond, this was unprecedented crisis management. It cannot but damage the pope’s authority with the faithful that such emergency measures were necessary, and it compromises not just this pope but the papal office itself. (This is a job, after all, that is supposed to be divinely guided and at all times beyond reproach: a claim that looks a bit threadbare after the past few days.)

The second is a more disturbing possibility: namely, that the Catholic church could be failing - yet again - to deal with the challenge of modernity. In the 19th and 20th centuries, it struggled to adapt to an increasingly educated and questioning faithful; now, in the 21st century, it is in danger of failing the great challenge of how we forge new ways of accommodating difference in a crowded, mobile world. The Catholic church has to make a dramatic break with its triumphalist, bigoted past if it is to contribute in any constructive way to chart this new course. John Paul II made some dramatic steps in this direction; but the fear now is that Pope Benedict XVI has no intention of following suit, and that he has another direction altogether in mind.

More from Pope Benedict

On homosexuality
“Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder. Therefore special concern and pastoral attention should be directed toward those who have this condition, lest they be led to believe that the living-out of this orientation in homosexual activity is a morally acceptable option. It is not.”

On Buddhism
“Auto-erotic spirituality.”

The ordination of women
On the excommunication of seven women who called themselves priests: “… the penalty imposed is not only just, but also necessary, in order to protect true doctrine, to safeguard the communion and unity of the church, and to guide consciences of the faithful.”

On same-sex marriage
“Call[s] into question the family, in its natural two-parent structure of mother and father, and make[s] homosexuality and heterosexuality virtually equivalent, in a new model of polymorphous sexuality.”

On rock music
“[A] vehicle of anti-religion”; “the complete antithesis of the Christian faith in the redemption.”

On cloning
“[A] more dangerous threat than weapons of mass destruction.”

guardian.co.uk/pope/story/0,1875791,00.html

V (Male)

For free access to my earlier posts on voluntary simplicity, compulsive spending, debting, compulsive overeating and clutter write: vfr44@aol.com. Any opinion expressed here is that of my own and is not the opinion, recommendation or belief of any group or organization.

from another list:

(Name removed) writes:

regarding “Pope…Buddhism a form of masturbation for the mind”

The topic of this discussion thread would appear to imply that a pope refered to Buddhism in terms of masturbation. This is both offensive and taken out of context.

In an interview with L’Express, in French, in 1997, Cardinal Ratzinger spoke of some in the West who are attracted to Buddhism because it offers a possibility of happiness by touching the infinite, without having concrete religious obligations. “Une autoerotisme spirituel, en quelque sorte.” (To some extent, a spiritual self-absorption.)

“Autoerotisme” in French has connotations of self-absorption or Narcissism. To translate this into English as “masturbation” is to be, at best, inattentive to nuance.

Complete translation by Joseph Marshall at shotofpolitics.blogspot.com/2005 … -post.html

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

V responds:

I cannot say yes or no, but good to hear all sides of an issue and let truth rest where it may.

Narcissism?

Maybe to a casual observer of an arhat, but Mahayana puts others first as their goal to compassion…hardly narcissistic. And a true arhat must free themselves from the 10 fetters. If one suffers from narcissism then the chances of progressing along s successful Buddhist path are going to be blocked.

The Ten Fetters - that binds a being to samsara (Samyojana)

(not all translations are accepted by all sects)

1 Belief in individuality
2 Skepticism
3 Clinging to rituals and rites
4 Cravings
5 Hatred
6 Desire for bodily refinements
7 Desire for non bodily refinements
8 Conceit
9 Excitability
10 Ignorance

In any case, whether the pope is calling Buddhists ‘mental masturbators or narcissistic’ it is no surprise either way. As it is common knowledge the Catholic church hopes for the early demise of Buddhism and such hopes can be summed up in their ending quote from their New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia:

newadvent.org/cathen/03028b.htm

“The spread of European civilization over the East will inevitably bring about its extinction.”

I would tell the pope, sure tearing others down appeals to one’s ego and pride, but so did torturing insects when we were kids. When we grow up we need a different way to find self worth. As you instill seeds of peace within others you plant the same seeds and water these seeds within you as well. As you give so you receive.

Do we like to be beaten down? Whenever we take it upon ourselves to beat down others, we are headed in a direction of destroying peace. We destroy our own peace as well as others peace. It takes no energy from me to pass something by and leave it alone in peace. But it takes my energy as well as my peace to pick something up to destroy it. As such pope, find the good in all, instead of working to destroy other religions.

Maybe the pope should read the bible more?

In Matthew, Jesus is reported to have said, “That which enters into the mouth doesn’t defile the man; but that which proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man.”

Also Buddhism has the eightfold path…‘right speech’ is one of these areas of masturbation / narcissism the pope speaks of and might possibly benefit from if he gave it some thought?

V

Not to apologize for the Pope, his words were clearly out of line, but I don’t think he is very familiar with true Buddhism.

On the other hand, what he is familiar with are occidental adolescents latching onto a foreign ideology and identifying as that. I’m not talking about Kwan Um and other schools that are actively trying to proselytize Westerners, but rather 16 year olds that read excerpts from a suspect translation of The Way of the Bodhisattva (if they’ve even done that!) and started to call themselves Buddhists.

Not that such a start cannot grow into something wonderful and meaningful if the individual in question actually chooses to persue Buddhism as an expression of their faith; however, how many hippie-types do you know that claim allegiance to the Buddhist religion while being totally ignorant of Nagarjuna, who wouldn’t know the Dharmapada from the Lotus Sutra, who wouldn’t know the Greater Vehicle from the Lesser (let alone what they are!)?

That is the kind of ‘Buddhism’ that the Pope is speaking out against. That is the kind of Buddhism that is lazy, primarily because it has nothing to do with actual Buddhism.

Now, it is of course the Pope’s motive to paint all Buddhism in this light, which is unfortunate, but I’m not sure whether that is as a reaction to Buddhism in Europe and America or hoping to implant the idea in the heads of (nominal) Catholics everywhere that such is all Buddhism has to offer.

I think he’s right about Buddhism- it is mental masterbation. But no more so than Christianity or Islam.

It’s not the Pope’s job to appease other religions. Setting aside the fact that they’re all equally silly (IMOHO) his job is to hawk Christianity and lead Christians. If he does that right he’s bound to piss off some people.

It would be nice if the religions could get along, but that’s probably not realistic. You insult my Santa Claus (eg Christianity) so I’ll insult your Easter Bunny (eg Islam). Nevermind that both are fantasy. It would be great if they’d stop insulting each others sacred cows, but it would be better still if they’d stop holding cows sacred.

I do not think that all religions are same at least Buddhism and Christianity are not same. I do not follow any religion, but still think that Buddhism is more appealing to the intellect than the fairy tales in Christianity.

So, pope says:

And Einstein says:

ON what level do you say it avoids dogma? It just has different dogmas. Don’t get me wrong- I think it’s appealing. I just can’t take it very seriously.

Man this new pope is awesome, and isn’t afraid of Political Cowardice.

And I’m not even catholic! Finally someone who isn’t afraid to say how it is… now if he could criticize his own religion as well, he’d be the perfect modern renaissance man.

Guess I’ll just have to fill his shoes.

:slight_smile:

Seriously, I’ve felt that buddhism is auto-erotica spirituality for some time. It’s just another form of moral nihilism… the best way to avoid suffering (as if suffering were bad!) is to engage in auto-erotica of the mind. It’s completely narcissistic.

Tell me why:

  1. Suffering of any kind is bad. I think the reason Buddhism is attractive to many westerners, is because they agree that suffering is an “evil”.

  2. Why the best way to deal with personal suffering is to not live and engage in mental spiritual masturbation.

  3. Prove the pope wrong!

Nihilism is a philosophical position which argues that the world, and especially human existence, is without objective meaning, purpose, comprehensible truth, or essential value.

From this statement alone I have gathered you have never studied Buddhism. As one of the “objective” statements are one of the Four Noble Truths. To live is to suffer.

So you would prefer for someone to yank your toenails out each time they grow back? I think you are placing your masochistic yearnings upon the wrong kinda thing.

There is nothing narcissistic about it if you really understood it. It tells you to detach from yourself not embrace yourself as the greatest thing ever.

Or perhaps because they simply don’t wish to suffer…you know. You put your hand on the stove once and burn it why would you put it back again?

Meditation is not the best way it is the way you live. But of course I fear this shall fall on deaf ears.

Scythe, each post you are becoming more and more delusional and throwing around improper wording. Simply put; calm down.

So completely detaching yourself from reality and absorbing yourself in SELF meditation isn’t narcissistic?

I have studied buddhism. The four noble truths are meaningless… The first one states, that “to live is to suffer”, of course that’s true, suffering is living, living is suffering.

If we are not suffering we are dead. Thus to pursue the removal of suffering is to wish to be nothing.

Nihilism.

You are taking an extreme viewpoint on suffering, and also merely only applying it to physical suffering. Like your stove example, if you don’t place your hand on the stove once, how will you know that it burns? We learn and grow through suffering. You learn that having someone yank out your toenails (wierd analogy btw) hurts like hell, thus you keep them trimmed up, or keep that psycho toenail puller away from your toes.

There’s also mental suffering, anguish, which we also learn from. It’s a natural desire to want to love someone else and become absorbed in them. The buddhist monks on their path of self-enlightenment (nihilism) avoid this suffering by avoiding relationships. (of course catholic priests and even the pope himself does the same!)

What can be learned from life if we never stick our feet in the water, because we’re afraid the water might be too cold, might be too warm, or might have pirhanna’s in it?

Sure you’ll live a long time, but it will be a lifetime of mental masturbation where you never take chances, and never suffer.

HOO RAY!

Like I stated in the last thread about suffering and buddhism, any substantial growth comes through substantial suffering. If we purposely AVOID suffering (which is a goal of buddhism) we do not grow… spiritually, mentally, or physically.

Do you think the weight trainer quits when his arms begin to hurt? If he did his muscles would not grow. The same is true of your mind and your spirit. It must suffer and hurt to grow.

If it’s too easy… (like buddhism) it will not lead to any growth, but mental, spiritual stagnation. thus like masturbation and homosexuality (both of which avoid any possible suffering with a real relationship) you avoid any sort of suffering, or challenge to yourself.

There are dozens of forms of meditation. So, until you actually research it please refrain from generalized statements. Even Christians use various forms of mediation.

Ok but is that not an objective statement? The presence of an objective statement disproves your nihilist remark.

Buddhists do not believe one to be just “dead”. They believe the cycle would continue. You simply choose to take and pick what you like about Buddhism I suppose.

They do not deny themselves any relationships. They intereact fully they simply do not hold an excessive level of attachment to things.

LOL you have a gross misunderstanding of Buddhism. Buddhists do not live a highly sheltered life. Certain monks go away to Monastic societies but they are not deathly afraid to do anything. Buddhists all strive to enjoy their life while not being excessively attached. May I recommend some Alan Watts to start you off with. I believe the Western perspective would help greatly.

They do not AVOID the term of suffering you endear to. The suffering is the return to samsara or reincarnation.

Wow, just wow. If that is why you believe people actually do these things I really do worry about you.

Homosexual relationships are not real relationships?

You are just as suprised as I am Robo

Without generalisations, it’s impossible to continue debate… Generally buddhists use meditation to escape from the world and it’s suffering correct?

(we aren’t even talking about christians or OTHER forms of meditations here.)

Not completely.

They are completely and totally about suffering… the 3rd and 4th truths tell us that the cessation of suffering is attainable, and that there is a path to cessation of suffering (the eightfold path).

The reason that’s nihilistic should be self evident, but I’ll try to explain it in a little more detail. Basically, you have highs and lows in life… suffering and pleasure. How can you fully experience life, if you follow a path to remove half of what life is?

The only way to experience pleasure is to suffer. The only way to have highs is to travel through the valleys of depression.

Buddhism aims at “equalisation” of life… basically think of it mathematically.

We have a +1 for the high, and a -1 for the low… they want to combine them to remove them, to get 0.

When you aren’t experiencing suffering, pain, lows… you aren’t experiencing there opposites correctly either. It’s completely the most relevant form of nihilism that’s actually possible in reality. (in reality no ABSOLUTE form of nihilism is possible…)

You misunderstood me completely there… When we are not suffering we are dead… as in NOT ALIVE anymore. Part of living and experiencing pleasure and joy, is experiencing there opposites… you can’t have one without the other.

that’s a bogus answer… they hold just lightly enough to avoid attachment… like I said, the ULTIMATE goal of buddhism is to not be attached at all. (which is of course impossible, as is full absolute nihilism), but they approach it as best they can, with the same dogmatic rigamorale as any other religion.

How many buddhist monks do you know that have devoted their life to “enlightenment”, that have a lover? A family? A car they care about? A house on the hill?

A cause?

Speaking of which, let’s say a buddhist exclaims; “Peace is the only way”… How can someone who excludes themselves from the opposite really say that is true?

Just like a christian strives to not sin, the muslim strives in jihad, etc.

Sure I’ll read it, if I open my mind full enough it might even inflect an opinion on me. Which raises the question;

“Should I let someone else’s opinion affect my own?”

I was waiting for the eastern terminology to appear… Before you know it we’ll be talking about which came first Dharma or Greg.

So they avoid dealing with life, to avoid having to come back to this life…?

Correct?

They avoid attachment to loved ones, so they won’t mourn those they love?

Correct?

Tell me again how this dogma is a good thing?

there are two types of homosexuals, those that engage in it like the BDSM people, as a sexual fetish, and those that engage in it for fetish reasons, but use their sexuality as a political platform for their own agenda.

As for masturbation… excessive masturbation does not bode well for interpersonal relationships.

Excessive meditation to avoid suffering does not lead to a good pleasureable life. It does not lead to any sort of spiritual, mental or physical growth.

As an example, I could avoid lots of potential suffering by avoiding learning how to ride a motorcycle… or I could take action and learn it and enjoy it.

I could avoid potential suffering by asking the same sex out (which is easy.) or I could take the hard road, and ask the opposite sex out and learn to deal with all the quirks that the opposite sex has. (the same is true no matter which side of the sex you are on.)

The question is…
Do you think that suffering leads to growth? or have you bought into the dogma that it’s best to avoid?

Scythe,
Might I recommend you read some Nagarjuna? Your post contains oversimplification after oversimplification so much so that I can only conclude you are being purposefully obtuse.

I’d also recommend that you try dating other men. See how easy it is . . . it isn’t.

I agree with Xun here. Admonish yourself the winner if you wish but I find this fruitless. Ignoranant behavior is a battle we just can’t appear to triumph over easily especially over the internet.

If you find your way of life enjoyable so be it Scythe. But for you to oversimplify certain non-harmful individuals lives is foolish. But if it makes you feel like a better person or whatever do what you wish. My recommendations of Watts is to help you break down your Western defenses by understanding as opposed to your obstainate additude. I do not wish to destroy your mind but rather help you accept others. After him I recommend D.T. Suzuki, I believe you would find Zen rather fascinating especially with its recent study by the medical/psychological community.

I’d like to talk about this sort of thing, which really shouldn’t surprise anybody, but I ain’t going to do it on Religion…well, ok, since you twisted my arm.

Scythekain is essentially right about the types of homosexuals, though I would admit to a third possibility - a slim few who are homosexual because they are convinced they have to be for whatever reason. They would overlap with his two groups here and there as well, I’m sure.

Oh, you thought I was going to talk about Buddism? Don’t know a thing about that, other than it’s silly to expect the Pope to be the paragon of religious plurality and tolerance- after all, tolerance for other religions is primarily a secular moral, and secularism isn’t his bag.

I only really want to comment on this part

What’s the point in debating/discussing if you aren’t even the least bit open to other ideas. Of course you should let other opinions effect your own as long as you don’t allow just any old opinion effect it. If you shut yourself out to letting anybodys opinions influence you then you’re living a life of simply trying to differenciate yourself as much as possible and no matter what not going to get a completly original opinion.

if I open myself to every idea under the sun, then it’s just as bad. What validity does anyone else’s opinion of the world hold for my own world view?

The point is, it’s easy to buddhist when you don’t have to live up to it. It’s easy to be buddhist when you don’t have to criticize it (christianity as well…)

You talk of self reflection and growth, but the end result is stagnant… why?

Here’s a couple of reasons:

  1. You have your mind so open that it absorbs other ideas like a sponge, thusly you never find out who you are.

  2. Self reflection, means being critical of your own faith as well… whether or not your buddhist and to what degree, you still should try and be critical of the buddhist path. It’s just as dogmatic as any other religion.

  3. In order to avoid suffering, you keep your mind open to other ideas, why?

It lessens the chance of conflict. If some pervert comes along that wants to be called normal, you don’t examine his position critically, you simply accept his perversity.

  1. Critical thinking is more important than having an open mind. Yes you should EXAMINE other people’s point of views, with a critical mind. That doesn’t mean from a hyper-partisan point of view, which is what most people who ask others to have an open mind have. They don’t REALLY want you to have an open mind, if they did, they wouldn’t care about the difference in opinion. What they want is for you to hold their opinion.

Is their opinion right? Is it the truth?

Critical examination of Buddhism leaves it just as frail as any other religion. Not worthy of following, because it’s still missing basic tenets of truth, and tries to change the nature of humanity to lessen spiritual growth. I think there are many other religions that do the same thing.

So…explain to me how their is homosexuality in nature without these thoughts.