cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/07 … index.html
How does this make non-catholics or for that matter anyone else feel?
cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/07 … index.html
How does this make non-catholics or for that matter anyone else feel?
I’m more curious about the rather sinister looking picture CNN chose for the article.
As a non-Catholic, let me say that as far as I can tell he’s speaking from the heart and giving a completely truthful account of Catholic teachings. It’s very refreshing in it’s non-controversy.
EDIT: Whoops, my bad. For clarification purposes, the Pope did not actually write the document in question. It came ‘from the Vatican’.
I read the clip earlier this morning and while a declaration pf primacy wasn’t anything new, I laughed at the statement that it wouldn’t affect the ecumenical “spirit”. Gee, I wonder what would?
I don’t think the Catholic Church will ever change its position on this. Its claim to primacy makes it special among Christian denominations. To deny that would cost the Church its claim to ultimate religious authority, which is its main selling point.
Special, but not unique. The Orthodox Church and several Protestant branches will make similar claims if you bug them about it. Protestants are notorious for refusing to consider Catholics as Christians, though they seem to include all varieties of each other.
Eep, sorry I should change the title to the Vatican.
This pope does resemble The Emperor from Star Wars.
And thank you for your responses. Please keep them coming.
“No salvation outside our House” or, more officially, “Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus” has pretty much always been the official stance of the Roman Catholic Church. John Paul II generally downplayed this aspect of the Church, but Benedict ain’t that kinda Pope. He is straight-up old-school. I respect it a lot. If he brought back the Latin mass, I’d probably crash a service occasionally. As long as I haven’t eaten anything since sundown the day before, of course. Otherwise, what would be the point?
“And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.â€
[Matthew 8:20, Luke 9:58]
Jesus was a homeless person. The Pope lives in the luxury of the Vatican’s Papal Palace. If he doesn’t follow Jesus, why should anyone follow him?
Ok so the Catholics are the only ones that are fully Christ’s church.
The vatican is not saying that the other churches are not Christ’s. The Vatican is just saying they are number one.
Lets hear that cheer Catholics!
We’re number one, We’re number one! Yeeaaaaaaaaa!
Can we have a religious super bowl ? The Cardinals against the Saints. ROFL
This little document is going to be fun around New Year’s eve when I get to argue with my dearest friend over it. He is a non practicing Catholic, he is devoted to arguing for the religion. Gads he is going to be inssufferable.
This will also cause some family fights for sure around the world for those non Catholics that have married Catholics. Yep, there wll be some fireworks in my families. ROFL
Religion! Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water.
Hmmmm, anything about Islaamics, jewish and other nonChristian relgions? I mean while the Vatican is on a roll why not sanctify another inquistion or crusade, the Pope looks like the right dude for the job.
As a convinced protestant my first reaction was to feel insulted, but later I think it just makes sense really. Papal supremacy and the Magisterium are at the core of Catholicism. And part of the definition of a protestant is that we absolutely reject these non-biblical ideas. It only seems fair to me that Catholics get to decide how Catholicism is defined.
Actually, I have an alternative take on this idea of tracing ones church lineage back to Peter. Most Catholics will pull this argument out of the bag if you get them on the ropes over Mary or praying for the dead etc… They’ll argue that protestant churches can only trace their lineage back to the reformation while Catholics can trace their spiritual lineage all the way back to Christ. Most protestants respond by saying, “well I don’t care”. I think that’s unfortunate as the Catholic argument is weak.
The assumption in the Catholic argument is that when the reformation occurred, the Protestant church appeared as an offshoot from the central Catholic trunk. But there is an alternative way of looking at this historical event. What if the reformation was simply God’s “re-formation” of the church on earth since it had gone so spectacularly astray (and most Catholics wont argue this point). Thus, the protestant church is really THE “reformed” church of Christ and can trace it’s lineage all the way back to the disciples. If we view things this way then the Catholic church is the oddity since it is simply a vestige of a corrupt and rejected church dating back to the 16th Century.
Sorry, if thats insulting to any Catholics out there, I have a number of respected and good Catholic friends by the way. But that’s pretty much the way I see it on a theological level. I’m not saying that protestants are any better than Catholics. I’m just saying that we can justify our position as the REAL church just as much as Catholics can. Whether it’s worthwhile to play these games is another question!
So basically, I’m not buying the argument that the Catholic church has any supremacy over any protestant denomination. The Pope and I will just have to agree to disagree. And I’m Ok with that, I hope he is too!
I couldn’t read it, the picture scared the crap out of me.
Just wanted to say: I agree with the Pope.
To point out, riches are not evil, but attachment to them is. The Pope’s money is not his own, it comes with the position. For those called to extreme poverty in the example of Christ, the mendicant orders were started. If everyone were indigent, it would be kinda hard for society to operate.
Did Jesus teach that? I read that he said, “If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.” Where does he say, “Live in opulence in a palace like the richest of men on earth with many servants and much comfort. Poverty is for other people who are called to it. Thank God you are not among them?”
Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world.” He didn’t compromise to enable the society which is of this world to operate. Why would his follower do that?
Much that is institutionalized in the organization of Christianity violates the spirit of Jesus. Those that profit from it should not delude themselves that they are following Jesus or that others cannot see what they are doing. Better to recognize that one is an abject sinner and cry out to God for mercy. At least that’s what Jesus taught.
I have to back felix here, There are so many impoverished starving Catholics and the Catholic church is so disgustingly wealthy, It does not make sense.
The church owns enough that none of its followers should ever be with out basic needs fulfilled. yet the church keeps its wealth and makes the Gov’ts help out the followers if it can. The pyschology is interesting. The followers follow knowing their leader is not sharing the wealth and helping them. Faith is an interesting thing or is it a form of brainwashing?
I have to back felix here, There are so many impoverished starving Catholics and the Catholic church is so disgustingly wealthy, It does not make sense.
The church owns enough that none of its followers should ever be with out basic needs fulfilled. yet the church keeps its wealth and makes the Gov’ts help out the followers if it can. The pyschology is interesting. The followers follow knowing their leader is not sharing the wealth and helping them.
I find it interesting, Kriswest, that you are not backing felix, but have your own issue. Felix is saying that living in a palace is unchristian. You say living in a palace leaves no money for others. You think poverty is the worst thing, and she thinks poverty is a good thing. (And if it is rather spiritual poverty that is a good thing, why cannot this be practiced in a borrowed palace?)
I say the Pope does not live in a palace of his own, but it is on loan. How he uses whatever wealth he has of use is his own moral problem. Do you remember when JP II visited that poor village in South America and gave them his papal ring to hawk for their own use?
What makes you think the Church is very wealthy anyway? (More wealthy than it needs to operate, that is.)
Shall we sell St Peter’s and give out the money in micro-loans? Will you do the same with your children’s money?
And if I answer you well, I say I am the wealth of the Church.
I find it interesting, Kriswest, that you are not backing felix, but have your own issue. Felix is saying that living in a palace is unchristian. You say living in a palace leaves no money for others. You think poverty is the worst thing, and she thinks poverty is a good thing. (And if it is rather spiritual poverty that is a good thing, why cannot this be practiced in a borrowed palace?)
I say the Pope does not live in a palace of his own, but it is on loan. How he uses whatever wealth he has of use is his own moral problem. Do you remember when JP II visited that poor village in South America and gave them his papal ring to hawk for their own use?
What makes you think the Church is very wealthy anyway? (More wealthy than it needs to operate, that is.)
Shall we sell St Peter’s and give out the money in micro-loans? Will you do the same with your children’s money?And if I answer you well, I say I am the wealth of the Church.
I agree with him and have my own point what is wrong with that?
If the Popes choose to reside in a borowed palace with wealth surrounding him and servants, They seperate themselves from the people they are suposed to lead. That does not sound like a good leader to me for a religion. But then again ,like I have said before show me one supreme religious leader that doesn’t live surrounded by wealth and seperate from their followers.
The vatican is called Vatican City. The Catholic Church is the wealthiest church. When figuring out true wealth you don’t do just Gross wealth you do net wealth. It has been done both ways and the Catholic Church is tops Gross and net. The amount of money that they would have to spend to help keep the most impoverished in basic survival needs would make a dent but, it would not break the church. He gave them his papal ring? BFD
Yep , sell St. Peter’s won’t bug me a bit. It would make a cool hotel or night club. As far as my child’s money from me LOL he will have to do his own wealth getting, we have nothing. Just enough to retire us eventually and thats about it. That is if we are lucky. We donate to abused children’s charities, reading programs and animal charities. How much more you want? All of it? Well that would be killing the golden goose.
According to you the church has no responsibility to its people. Do you think the people are responsible to the church?
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/07/10/pope.churches.reut/index.html
How does this make non-catholics or for that matter anyone else feel?
It doesn’t bother me. That’s always been the position of the Catholic church. He’s doing the right thing.
Yep , sell St. Peter’s won’t bug me a bit. It would make a cool hotel or night club.
Yeah, that'll feed the poor. This just sounds like a lot of sour grapes to me. What does the Church give out in charity, compared to what they have? Let's see some numbers if you want to talk finance, and not just complaining. We're talking about an organization of around a billion people here. How much money do they have in -church per capita? What's wrong with having nice churches?
http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=68927
That is just one link to one report on the Catholic Church wealth
That the church donates money is not in dispute. It is the unbalanced wealth vs, donations that is in dispute right? Well I am searching for the amounts it donates and I will link more about its wealth . I can tell you that I am 99% sure I am in the right but, we shall see. I will post links as I can do searches.
Searches take time on dial up so bear with me I don’t have alot of time to sit and search. I will ry to give you what you ask for.