Someone asked about a month ago if there was any general description of the correct practice of Christian prayer, I think it was Xunzian, and they never got an adequate response that I know of. I found this today which seems to answer the question quite well.
Again, another little gem. Ucciscore, you and I seem to be on the same wave length!!
For so long I had the hardest time praying; I felt awkward, silly, and would get so worked up about it that in the end I would just give up. One day while in the midst of a internal crisis I simply cried inwardly, “Jesus” and something clicked, and I began to continue the inward calling out to the savior. It was more than just calling His name, it was calling, begging for a response to my needs that 1.) I didn’t know and 2.) I could find no resolution for within myself. Long story short, it became my one prayer. Simply begging the name of Jesus. However, I noticed that the more I did it, the easier it was to go to God for other things; to actually speak a specific need- for me it was amazing!
Interestingly I came across Martin Buber’s The Way of Man/ Ten Rungs (two separate works in one book). In this work he approaches what he calls the rung of prayer, one section is called The Secret Prayer. And this is how it reads:
“This is how the words of prayer: ‘Hear us, when we call for help, hear our cries, Thou who knowest what is hidden,’ are expounded. We do not even know how we are supposed to pray. All we do is call for help because of the need of the moment. But what the soul intends is spiritual need, only we are not able to express what the soul means. That is why we do not merely ask God to hear our call for help, but also beg him, who knows what is hidden, to hear the silent cry of the soul.â€
Now take this concept of the silent needs of the soul and the silent/unknown prayer and cross-reference it with the eighth chapter of Romans, and specifically verses 16-27. Paul uses the description of the whole creation groaning and suffering the pangs of childbirth and then in verse 26, “In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;â€
Now, again, (I hope you’re still following me here, this is just the weird way that I came through all this) if you read the first six sections of the Confessions you see Saint Augustine asking, among other things, about this very thing! Obviously these guys weren’t the only one talking about this, but they start to tie it together for me. They’re all speaking on the inability or insufficiency of their prayer/man’s prayer.
This then leads to the audio you posted about the Jesus Prayer and The Way of the Pilgrim, which I just started reading and ties into all of this stuff I’ve been trying to following. This is what I can postulate so far: There is an unsaid prayer, one that is spoken unbeknownst to the believer and assisted by the Spirit. This prayer is for the needs of the soul, yet the believer does not truly know what his soul really needs. And the need of the soul is the greatest need of all; all other needs are temporary. Yet, because a believer also does know that he is lacking the Jesus Prayer can do many things, like Nassef(sp?) says, it is the sum of all the Gospels. I think that the believer is constantly praying, because the soul is always in need. Prayer is a prostration of sorts, a recognition of the individual relative to God (Job, anyone…) and the Jesus Prayer, as it sums up the entire Gospel, also sums up the entire need of the individual. So, maybe it is the only prayer we need, because what else does the soul really need other than obviously Jesus?
Sorry if its a little convoluted, putting down thoughts that have been racing around your mind for a while can sometimes be difficult. Hopefully you can follow through on those readings and let me know what you think, if nothing else you may see something, or already have something, that I do not which would be awesome! I’ve been working on this idea of the silent prayer and the need of the soul for some time.
My approach to prayer is almost childlike these days, because I’m re-discovering religion and kind of easing myself into a new one- the move from Protestantism to Orthodoxy is such a great shift. I think you may be on to something with the idea of the believer always being in prayer because of the soul’s ‘crying out’ that we don’t understand or acknowledged. But, truthfully, it seems a little advanced for me. I can’t see myself every coming to that understanding about me, or rather, I can see myself doing it, and I know that if I did, there would be conceit and laziness behind it. Any concession I made to the existence of praying without praying would be twisted into an excuse not to pray, where I am in life now, does that make sense?
I’m very happy with my precious Jesus Prayer, saying it and thinking it many times a day, very clearly and distinctly emphasizing each word. Not only does it align the soul with the mind as you say, but in a very practical sense, it creates a disciplined religious practice in my life, which is something that is and has been missing for far too long.
I also see that your idea of prayer revolves around need, which is interesting- we pray for the needs we have, and we try to discover what our soul really needs. I think there's a lot of truth to that. I also think, though, that worship is it's own kind of communication that doesn't translate well to something else. The Jesus Prayer, for example - I don't know that we have to understand it as tapping into anything, spiritual or otherwise. I suspect that there is value in the purely physical and mental act of saying those ten words, completely in itself.
The monk that is interviewed most often in [u]The Mountain of Silence[/u] talks about the power of the words themselves, and I get the impression he's connecting it to the tradition of the Church. When you're talking about the Jesus Prayer, you're talking about words that saints and martyrs have had on their lips as they died for over a thousand years. If the Church is what it takes itself to be, it would make sense that such prayers could have...I don't know the word to use, call it 'significance' even for someone not capable or even willing to use them as a tool to look or think deeply, perhaps in a related way to how the Church views the sacraments as being actual [i]holy acts[/i], not just 'mere' acts that suggest some ungraspable holiness.
Yes, that makes sense and I agree about it leading to conceit and laziness, but only if the individual allows this to happen and that is where the Jesus Prayer comes in. Even if this unsaid prayer is being spoken, it is unknown to us or underneath us if that makes sense. It does seem to be a little on the side of mysticism, no? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not suggesting that one ever excuse oneself from actual prayer.
On the other counts I agree with you wholly. Esp. with the idea that it need not be as advanced as I’m trying to make it. As I said prayer started to ‘work’ for me once I made it as simple as possible, just rolling out some thoughts.
I understand particular religions have restrictions and rules that one adherent should follow in prayer.
I share the idea that one should pray in a way that feels natural and comes easiest to the individual and allows a feeling of calmness to overcome the indvidual involved in the prayer
To feel awkward in prayer means to me that one is letting societal notions get in the way. How Crude!!
A couple of questions, because it seems as though you have it all figured out.
- How could you possibly know this, could it not be other reasons why one feels awkward during prayer?
- As you say it’s “crude.” well certainly, it may be crude as in undeveloped or unrefined (though I have a feeling you meant it as an insult). Did you simply know how to pray or did you develop a way to do it?
- What exactly are “societal notions” and how exactly do they affect prayer? After you’ve define societal notions, which ones specifically might affect prayer?
Why do we pray?
any number of reasons, but I’d say because we are told to pray, God deserves our praise and it puts one in communion with God. Also, it reminds us of our relative position to God. I would say there are many other reasons though.
It seems reasonable to me that if we at least in part because we have been instructed to do so, that there will be rules to the process that we didn’t come up with ourselves.
I don’t disagree at all
I suppose at second look my post appears bland and even to an extent incorrect although it comes from my experience.
No ‘A Pilgrim’, I surely do not have it all figured out although I’m not sure what you are referring to.
Above all, I believe prayer should be a natural experience and the experience itself should feel comfortable and warming.
Mainstream societal ideas are shallow and often faulty, correct or incorrect?
Usually if I have difficulty doing something it comes from this false ideal that is suppose to be conducted in a specific way.
I am now aware that there are many infinites of reasons why one feels discomforted by the act of prayer but that I am not going to get into.
I feel as if you were attacking me insiduously as I may have communicated that I was arrogant, if so I apologize, my response was whimsicle.
But allow me to ask, why have you felt “awkward, silly” while praying? What made the act so? Maybe I can provide some insight with a more detailed response on your side. Maybe you have already overcome this obstacle. I wish you the best!!
Hi Ucc. and Pilgrim,
I am thankful for this thread since the emptiness of many discussions was one of the reasons I had retired for a while. I have been spending time with Thomas Merton, an uncomfortable but worthwhile read for anyone who is on a pilgrimage.
Prayer is essential to spiritual life, it is the centre of anything „religious“ and the starting point of anything worthwhile. The problem that most people have is that they consider prayer to be a conversation between two people. But people are made out of flesh and blood, with thoughts and opinions out of sight, unless we choose to reveal them. Prayer is the connection of spirit to spirit, essentially without words, even though we speak, and my soul is open to my opposite. God’s will and majesty, but also his love and benevolence are equally open to the soul who can take it. Sometimes it is terrible, most of the time it is puzzling, but often it is revelatory.
The first fruit of Prayer is self-awareness, the understanding of who one truly is – and who or what we are not. Our relationship to the world, our part in what goes wrong, and our own potential is something that has become blatantly clear to me in the past few years. The truth in the fact that a Christian will suffer with and that he must die like his master is something that we struggle with like Jesus on the Mount of Olives – until we accept it like he did. Most of all it has become so very clear to me that I am „weary and heavy laden“, not only because others weary and overload me, but because I allow them to do that in the hope of some short-termed advantage.
To become part of the „new creation“ we have to die to the old. This is something that reveals immediately that the world today is by no means better than it was. We still have a similar opposition in the world like the first saints did. Not because people won’t listen to us, but because spiritual living is like a stigma. Not playing the „game“ of consumerism, living frugal lives, helping in all modesty is as much „foolishness“ today as it was then. That is why most mainline Churches have turned their backs on such spirituality. If there is no prayer, there can be no such life, because without such prayer, the power of the Gospel is not apparent.
The question that I have in prayer is, how to live this life and support my family. I am presently praying for more people who are prepared to live this kind of spiritual life, but sometimes there is no answer… probably because there are few people willing to find the narrow gate.
Shalom
Bob, are you familiar with Rudolph Otto’s The Idea of The Holy? I want to check first before I go off into some long quoting of things that you are already familiar with. I think his ideas of the “numinous”, “wholly otherness” and “creature feeling” apply here. Let me know, I’d really like to follow your line up further…
Hi Pilgrim,
I have read certain parts in German - I don’t think that I could claim that I am “familiar” with it.
Shalom
I hope you two continue, I’d like to sit back and just read this dialog for a while.
Hi Ucc. and Pilgrim,
Its Sunday, we don’t work on Sundays … 
OK, if we begin with “the Holy†and then look at prayer, then the first thing that comes to my mind is the confrontation with the “completely other†but which is a phenomenon that pervades the superficial that I believe to be myself. This confrontation is, however, preceded by a long silence in which I feel myself tested as to whether I really am serious and whether I can listen or whether I only want to talk.
Because of this there can be numerous deviations, which most of us have been through to some degree. The talking phase is probably where most of has been, and it may well be that this has helped us get things clear in our mind and even hyped us up to get things done. However, many experience this phase as disappointing, as a talking to themselves and, curiously, psychiatrists are also criticised in this way although they offer structures that help the person “heal†themselves. I think this aspect of prayer is something valuable – but some manage to find it “illusionaryâ€. It does reveal though, that we have lost a sense of the Holy by being steeped in profanity.
Speaking to God is a necessary form of prayer and a form that leads up to deeper communion, even preparing the confrontation with the Holy. It is not less for that, but there are other aspects which are more valuable. One problem that seems to arise comes from a somewhat naïve attitude towards prayer, misunderstanding the communion that takes place and thinking the message that one receives is always in a language. In fact it is without language and the language we find to describe or perhaps circumscribe the experience is our own. That is why some people just do what they have understood and don’t try to explain, whereas others recognise in their revelation something for all.
We need to speak because our thoughts are often wildly undisciplined and it helps us gain order. That is probably a healing process for itself. However, it is our soul that is in need of healing, having been mistreated by the contrary life we lead, the distress we cause ourselves and each other, and the resentment and enmity that has built up within us. To allow God to reach the soul, we have to learn to relax and let go. The less we think, the more we can listen inwardly. This is the value of mantra-prayer, which helps us stay alert whilst hearkening for the whisper of the Spirit of God. A rosary or other kind of beads is another means of remaining alert over a longer period of time.
The use of trance is something foreign to me, although it may be accepted as a mysterium tremendum in some places. I think that the problem here is in it’s possible misuse and falling into the opposite to prayer. There have been numerous occasions even in recent history when such things have happened, supposedly under the influence of the Holy Spirit, but the cavorting has been more of an opposing Spirit than that of the One. I find that alertness and awareness of a peaceful mind and body helps the Spirit connect and heals the soul.
The “fürchten und lieben†(fear and love) of Luther expresses the kind of paradoxical relationship that the person who hearkens has with the Holy God. It is the paradox of God being Lord and “Abba†(Father, Papa), far away and yet close, Creator and Redeemer, God and Man. The Ineffable is so, because he can be both at once.
Shalom
Prayer is a direct “conversation†between an individual person and God. You can grunt and it can be a prayer; for God knows the “heart†of man (Luke 18:13, Matt. 9:4). Human verbiage is besides the point. The Pharisees were very interested in rote praying (Mark 12: 40). We are warned to avoid vain repetitions in prayer (Matt. 6:7). Passion
Hi Passion,
How would you define that?
Shalom
Cool, thanks!
That does answer my question quite nicely. It is actually much more like meditation (and the Zen idea that we should be constantly engaged in meditation) than I would have expected! Obviously, different things are chanted but the overall process is quite similar.
Neat.
Bob, sorry for the delay in my response. I work a job that often requires me to work beyond regular hours and when I’m there the people who I work with require (and deserve) my full time and attention. There are times that I feel mentally and emotionally drained and need some time to recover.
That being said, I see you have already touched on some of the things I wanted to discuss, thats awesome!
Yes, the “wholly otherness” is a big thing to come to grips with. It’s daunting and confusing and debasing. Otto called this the “creature feeling” or “creature consciousness” and says of it, “It is the emotion of a creature, submerged and overwhelmed by its own nothingness in contrast to that which is supreme above all creatures.” The first time I read that, the analogy of submersion gripped me so tightly. Its like, if one can imagine, waking up submerged in water with no air, no direction and completely enveloped. You said that the recognition of this is preceded by long periods of silence where you are tested… A couple of questions. 1. This period of silence, does it occur all the time or an initial point? For myself, when entering into prayer there is always a moment or period when this hits me like a ton of bricks! At times it makes my heart race. When I’m able to come to grips with this it constantly reminds me that prayer is not something to be entered into lightly. For as much as modern Protestantism wants to make this communion a friendly banter it is sooo much more. 2. How do you express to someone else, as you say, the idea that the Holy is something that has become profane? Also, that even if one has come to terms with the Holy, that the talking phase is integral. I am currently working with someone on this very idea. He is very smart and seems to be running himself in circles over this which is setting him backwards in his progress. What I mean by this is that the Holy doesn’t require this talk; we do. Its our form of communication and does not cheapen prayer. Although in my first post I talked about the silent prayer of the soul, this conscious crying out is necessary.
The “fürchten und lieben†Otto calls mysterium tremendum ad fascinons. Like Luther he says that it both pulls and repulses the soul, utter dread and utter fascination of the mysterious other. While this paradox is occurring, like you say, mantra prayer and rosary use are certainly beneficial. But it seems that one would have to train oneself, would have to, like an athlete, prepare their mind and soul for this communion. I would say that this is where the Spirit enters to assist the soul for this interaction. So, as I said in my initial post, maybe this is where the soul begins to make it constant silent prayer. The soul has been prepared; the individual has made the effort to interact with the Holy after recognizing the otherness of the Holy and so the Spirit takes over and assists the soul to cry out to God unconsciously when it is in need (which is probably at all times).
You said that the first fruit of prayer is self-recognition, but as I’ve been saying, wouldn’t self-recognition relationally to the Holy be a precursor to prayer? Like you said, “That is why most mainline Churches have turned their backs on such spirituality.†But would it not be that the turning from spirituality is a result of not first taking the steps to truly recognize the wholly other, mysterium tremendum ad fascinons, etc., the fact that they have made the Holy profane? Could it be that the first fruit of prayer is then a continued heightening of self-awareness, and then as prayer becomes more constant so does the self-awareness?
Also, your question of how to live that life of and support your family; isn’t that kind of the point though, to be in a constant struggle between the two. I mean you can’t slug off either right? Do we become the new creation now or later? Isn’t the struggle the act of dying to the old?