If God is omnipotent, omniscient, and indeed the lord of everything that is responsible for all of creation then this means that such a being is indeed also responsible for all of evil. The subject of evil just being another variation of creation.
Such a being would be the sole creator of evil and indeed probably permits such as a part of their grand design.
Please note that I’m an atheist criticizing the subject of evil from a purely religious point of view.
Life is the process of trying. If there is nothing to try against, there can be no life.
But the first thing to try against in the effort of life, is to avoid creating more of a challenge than was already set before you = “evil”.
One can say that God, the Creator, caused the opportunity for evil to rise merely by creating actual life that wasn’t 100% all-knowing (decision making survival oriented beings). And statistically such evil certainly will rise.
And by that same logic automobile manufacturers are the greatest murders on the planet (possible exception of doctors).
Absolutely true, but no atheist will accept that argument. They claim that the death is evil manifested by the God, but at the same time, they forget that death can happen only to the life.
Had there been no life, there would have been no death either. Living is between the two.
If God causes death/evil, he would have caused birth/goodness much before that. But, atheist always take that goodness for granted, and misrepresent the picture by selective picking.
LM made the same mistake in the other thread, where he claimed that investors lost millions because Chinese stocks crashed by 30% in three months. But, he ignored the fact that it is still nearly doubled from the last year.
With love,
Sanjay
Yes, that’s generally the intended point of this thread in subject.
Except that good as a concept couldn’t exist without evil where both would have had to come to fruition into existence simultaneously if we stick with the religious script.
On an unrelated subject to the thread you posted systematic economic loss is still loss nonetheless no matter the inflated statistical aberrations that comes out of a government contrived bureau.
The religious script? Pretty sure there was only talk of good at the beginning…
You’d think that if both came into existence simultaneously, and that if this was a fundamental point of the religion, that God would have said so, no? i.e., God would have saw, not just that there was good, but that there was evil too? …
I think you need to read the script a little more closely and not get confused between what it says and what you think it says.
I don’t think God ever denies that he is indeed the creator of evil, it is seen as a test for the human being, how you will respond when “evil” comes to you, or if you will embrace “evilness” as a way of life and commit wrong acts…
Death, in the religious context, is an act placed upon the human being during the soul extraction, by the angel of death. I don’t think it has good or bad connotations in religious scripture, just a process that takes place in reality, although I have read, somewhat, contradicting views on death in scripture, where death is celebrated or looked forward to like “going home” to be with your lord in heaven and then i remember it saying something like “those who hate god, love death”…
Anyways, death is written out of the western way of life, not to think or speak about it, just hope that it doesn’t come to you…In other cultures, they celebrate death, they have death parties etc…it is seen as a transition to another place, depending upon there belief system…you can see a lot stuff like this in African tribal culture, and other places.
For me, the book of Job displays an arrogant god who boasts of creating good and evil and assumes that humans can know little or nothing about the creations. He tests Job to the limits of endurance by taking from Job all that enhanced his ego–wife, children, property. Did Job deny that god is good? No, he kept his simple faith in the teeth of personal misery.
I’ve often wondered why the book was kept in the canon. It is based on a wager between god and Satan wherein a human life was at stake. We should not be put to the test. But for many believers, we must be tested in order to prove our metal.
The book of Job is an excellent example of what this thread is describing, albeit on a theological point of view.
Once again, God created evil, suffering, misery, inequity, and general human deprivation yet this is the same God you religious people embrace and pray to.
I am finding some irony in this along with some humor.
Job’s god is an infantile depiction of what a god could really be. This does not have to be the god one respects as the whole of reality or of the universes. Only fundies see god as the necessary tyrant in the sky.
Actually I think the author of Job articulates very nicely religious people’s denial to their own theological beliefs or metanarratives.
Now that I think of it, its amazing it was ever allowed to see the spotlight of the day in scripture or canon. Pretty much summarizes rather nicely religious people’s childish belief in God in a very fitting way.
One begins to wonder if the author did this intentionally or not.
Think neither of you are giving the God in the book of Job the credit due. Surface reading sees God as an “infantile… tyrant in the sky.” Deeper reading sees God consoling Job of his lowly view of himself (a view, granted, resulting from his test…).
Ierrellus you’re right: Job is tested to prove the worth of us all. But understand God’s motive in doing this. You have the satan, doubting / accusing humankind after traveling up and down the earth, and not even accepting Job as a worthy example of us… You have God, defending humankind and trying to restore the satan’s faith in us (with Job as His best argument)…
THAT is the context. Is that not good of God to do? To defend us? Is that not necessary as well? That the rest of creation, most notably the doubters and accusers of God’s plan, have faith in humanity? Let’s recall God’s plan from the beginning: not that GOD have dominion over the earth, but that WE do… Is it not necessary that the rest of creation be on board with this? Hence Job’s test. The whole of God’s plan rests on it.
So if you disagree with Job’s test, let’s be clear what you’re really disagreeing with: God’s plan to have us rule the earth. If you disagree with this plan, you are like the satan. You may be right: humankind may not be worthy. But even in this case a test is warranted to open a way forward. Either to restore your faith and validate God’s plan, or to validate your lack of faith and the question whether humankind should be wiped out and a new plan developed.
The first mention of Satan in the NT comes when Christ is tempted in the desert. Satan offers Christ the World if Christ would worship him. In other words, Satan already owned/ruled the world or could not have offered it in the temptation.
As in the book of Job, Satan appears as an equal to God.–one worthy of having a free hand to put people to the test.
As for stopping the world and starting it over, there is in my mind a problem with the flood story. In Sodom and Gomorrah or in the flood, how many innocent babies had to die? How many innocent babies died in the plagues God imposed on Egypt?
I would be careful equating the NT Satan with the satan in the book of Job. There is no character with the proper name Satan in the book of Job. Rather there is a character who plays the role of the satan… (The accuser or doubter.)
By the time of the NT, this accusing / doubting spirit is personified in Satan. Would suggest that Satan represents an intensification and even further perversion of this spirit that dates all the way back the serpent of Genesis. But the satan isn’t evil… It’s simply a spirit of accusation and doubt, and any creature can fill this role.
Equal to God? Sure. I don’t think God rules in a hierarchy. We definitely see the satan in the heavenly council in the book of Job with the other children of God which indicates some kind of flat structure. But free hand to put people to the test? Maybe… All we can say from the book of Job though is that the satan tests with God’s blessing. Not unilaterally…
As for Egypt or Sodom. These are last resort efforts. There is a time for everything right? I also see something like the satan happening here. Each generation becoming more perverse… From the innocent serpent to the doubter / the satan to the hateful Satan… When at such an extreme generation, are there really any innocent children left?..
Not saying I fully believe that. Obviously I think that good things can come from the most despicable sources. But there is something to it. And perhaps we can understand the destruction of cultures that are so far gone as to be irredeemable and with no more potential for good things to come.
Babies are innocent until they learn enough to reach an age of accountability. The OT god seems not to think so, unless the babies happen to be Hebrew. If this sounds like a modern interpretation of ancient wisdom. be it known that God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. What evolved over time was how people saw God–an evolution from a wrathful deity who chooses among people who is worthy of life and liberty to a god who is love, which is a universal possibility.
God’s plan? That’s rich. If God existed I would turn in my atheist position for a misotheist one instead. God’s plan, pfft!
If God was real he’s a real sadistic asshole.
He’s like a kid with a magnifying glass having sport with ants on an ant hill. Guess who the ants are?
Yet Lucifer, Satan, or whatever use to be one of the angels created by God. Was Lucifer a part of God’s plan also? 
Sounds to me like God delighted in the killing of human beings. Probably took pleasure with it in how it’s portrayed.
Hey, don’t look at me, it’s your religious script not mine. I’m just a bemused spectator.
Don’t be an idiot We’re talking about a book here that depicts a clear plan on God’s part that you yourself refer to in your opening post. See bolded text.
So please post with substance or don’t post at all. i.e., if you want to talk about God’s plan, and how evil or suffering or whatever fits in, then let’s be clear about what God’s plan is. Let’s make sure we’re criticizing the right thing.
I think my problem with statements made here is that nobody seems to realise that good and evil are characteristics that we create in our minds. It all starts there. We have an idea of good and whatever is the opposite constitutes evil. We have an idea of evil and the opposite is good. The world is made up of such dichotomies and rather than say a god “made” evil, it is more fitting to say “there is evil” in the natural run of things, just as “there is good”. But what is deemed good and evil is in our minds. They differ between neighbours and cultures perhaps, but there seems to be eight commandments that address those problems which we hold in common.
I’m not quite sure where we need a god. Perhaps to take the blame?
That God is needed, shows a posteriori, that it has been a tack record f mankind to need the security of a higher type of father, then the one with which he had to settle for.
But that notwithstanding, evil is the price for life,
under the assumption that everything does have a
price.
Simply that evil reduced to the most common denominator is pain. Without the pain inherent in the
process of living, it would be impossible to gauge the pleasure which is tatamount to relative perceptions of feeling.
Let us not forget, that as with Jacob, so with Job, God did in fact reward Man for his fidelity.