Problems With "The God Theory"

03.24.07.2046

I checked some link I noticed on the ILP Homepage that had been “circulated” through other various random links to pop up with two other completely insignificant links that was in regards to the Bernard Haisch book, The God Theory. The site, found here, had a link to a YouTube video, which I clicked out of curiosity because I wanted to hear what some “scientist” had come to decide what evidence there was in astrophysics to prove the existence of a deity.

The video, found here (from the site itself), prompts evidence that Richard Dawkins had already thwarted in his argument-shattering book, The God Delusion.

The argument provided by the video shows there can only be a hypothesis for a deity, not a theory. It is for this reason that I have made this post to thwart the problems that rise from the information provided on the video about the book (not the book itself).

The video starts out by asking basic questions: “is science compatible with spirituality; can you have spirituality without any religion; can there be a purpose for the universe; a purpose for your life?” The video goes on to say that “yes” is the answer for all those questions. Such blind assumptions are silly when based on the evidence that this “yes” was given for.

The video prompts its “evidence” being “the number of properties that are just right for life to evolve” in the universe. This is a reference to Martin Rees’ book, Just Six Numbers, which discusses six “constants” necessary for our universe to end up exactly how it has. Unfortunately for Haisch and Rees, Dawkins already defeats this issue in his book: pages 141-151 (if you don’t have it, get it).
The video goes on saying the “necessary properties” are “amazingly just right to be conducive to life”. Apparently it is not in the imagination of these people that life would exist in another kind of universe different from ours and that those lifeforms evolved differently than we have. The video assumes, but does not confirm that we could not exist in any other universe than the one we are currently in because ours is “just right”. There’s a problem with that “just right” idea. One need only to listen to Neil de Grasse Tyson to find out how “imperfect” our universe is for us. Stupid Design shows that there cannot be an Intelligent Designer of the universe we currently reside in.

The video implies that a deity should exist because “really intelligent people” think so… the god of gaps is found most abundantly in our history of science. Of course, it then spends the last half of its running time making assumptions based on the assumption that an intelligent designer exists… but wait, this intelligence is claimed to be not only infinite, but outside of space and time as well with infinite potential! “What would such an intelligence do with infinite potential?” the video asks… the answer is silly. It’s so silly, that it goes as far to imply that we are manifestations of the “infinite intelligence”, creating this deity’s experiences with our lives. If it goes this far, why does it have to be “one god”, why not many? There was no claim that it had to be the Judeo-Christian god, or Thoth, or Zues… or anyone; just that it is an intelligent designer.

Without flatly saying so, this video sneaks its slithery fake science in to your thoughts to imply that intelligent design is equally defensible as the random multiverse argument. Sure, you can believe in both science and some kind of deity to fill the gaps; in fact, you can even believe that the universe has a purpose… but the evidence is so vastly insufficient, it is practically impossible to prove anything about the origin of the universe. “God” is not a theory… it is a hypothesis, and without sufficient evidence, it has failed.

Saying it has failed is arrogance. The reason why I know that my (God) god exists is because I can hear his voice in its pages.(The Bible) Does that make sense for you?

03.24.07.2048

Saying it hasn’t is ignorance, and I doubt my conclusion qualifies as arrogance. I have given evidence that goes against Intelligent Design… can you support its claims?

:laughing: That is almost as bad as a Muslim saying Islam is the truth because the Qu’ran says so. However, I will give you one chance to offer undeniable evidence that your belief is the truth.

There’s nothing ignorant about acknowledging that which I have been taught.

I do not know that I am right because the Bible says so. The Bible is right because God says so.

Where does he say so?

When he speaks to you.

Hindus say they hear gods voice in the Bhagavad Gita, does that make sense to you?

Muslims say they hear gods voice in the Koran, does that make sense to you?

Jews say they hear gods voice in the Tanakh, does that make sense to you?

If there was only ONE religion, that everyone agreed with, then I would consider your question more thoughtfully but isn’t it ‘arrogant’ of you to think that your gods voice is the right one?

If you had been born in another country or your parents were of another faith, you’d be saying the exact same thing ABOUT ANOTHER BOOK.

This is the problem. It’s TOTALLY SUBJECTIVE without a fragment of objectivity.

03.24.07.2049

:unamused: Uhm… yeah.

Someone please get a die-hard Creationist in here to give me a run for my money! :stuck_out_tongue:

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
That’s a perfect video, even though it’s about how imperfect/stupid the universe is [compared to a pre-planned efficiency].

youtube.com/watch?v=ID_CXC2Zkuw&NR
^

How about, instead, we get a die-easy human in here to act just as inefficient and stupid as the rest of the universe does. :laughing:

Sagesound:

I could give it to you…But Id rather not. I would hate to be responsible for what would ocure after that… :evilfun:

Besides we’d probably argue back and forth for weeks and then one of us would get tired or bored of it. Dan might even jump on the band wagon…That would be really interesting :laughing:

03.26.07.2057

Oh don’t worry about it… come on board, it’ll be fun! Give me the best argument you can come up with! You can even make a disclaimer that states you are not responsible for any mess that will occur! :slight_smile:

Sage:

If all we humans observe and do and know is about Purpose, then what physical evidence can there be against it?

Very well:

I can sum up a die hard creationist theory in one word:

Chaos.

With this one word you can go in any direction and as long as you admit that Chaos exists, it works.

Chaos itself randomly creates and destroys, Is it not possible for this principal to randomly create a Being or Universe?
Of course the Universe has no begining or end and even containing Chaos when thats all there was it would still take just the right arangement and who knows how long it took to reach such an arangement…But obviously it did.

Chaos also suports this theory of no end or begining because itself is the one thing that can exist without an opisite for it itself is its own opposit. (If you are one who believes in such things)

Now, Say it created a Being (Or several Beings) I’m sure it took a while to randomly create one that could survive in such an environment say…A metaphysical one…

Now this Metaphysical being we shall call God for the Purpose of our amuesment… :evilfun:

He then reached out and spun the Chaos that was into the curent Universe.

This explains why everything is so fucked up and God is really more chaotic (If you read the scriptures and evidence than anything else) An intelligent being born of chaos while perhaps omnipotent (All powerful) would not be able to design a (Smart universe) SO to speak because of the chaotic facter in his makeup.

In other words he would seam as everything Emotionaly and otherwise, rather than a select few or one.

As he does apear in the Bible and other Scriptures.

This also makes him the most Powerful being in the universe (So far) as he was the first (Well not really the first,but the first to survive at any rate)

However he still exists within the Universe itself and still must abide by whatever Universal Laws aply. (Why he had to sacrifice his son on the cross rather than just say PooF! if you worship me you come to heaven). A link had to be esatablished from this realm to his by the sacrifice of a coporial form containing his essance… (Jesus).

Makes sense to me…

There you go hows that for a crack at it?

Disclaimer:
I am not responsible for any suport given to the thiest or non thiest by this quote I am also not responsible for any arguments given to sagesound suporting this theory… :laughing:

In truth this is the way it would have had to happen if it did…The problem is Christians wont believe it because to them God is the Universe, or rather is more than it itself which in this theory he exists within and created him.

Thats not what I believe because Im not a thiest but hey, I never said God didnt exist… And besides eventualy he will be a minority compared to some of the beings now… Evolution, Change, Chaos.

Its really amazeing what kind of BS you can make up when you believe in an infinite Universe, and everything instantly becomes possible…

Not pure chaos, that can’t exist. If it did it would contradict much of what we observe, such as survival of the fittest and the absolute laws of physics.

Also why can’t you respond to the Purpose example? I’m no die-hard creationist but I don’t think I would have much trouble showing a lot of connected evidence and logic to the idea of an intelligent designer being more probable then not.

Human, dont lecture me on a science that it in itself defines the Human Coporial form as nothingness or empty space (Basicaly it says “You” dont exist or rather can’t… Well Clearly you do exist…Seeing the issue with your theory here?)Im sorry but your reudementory science is extreamly flawed.

Oh…and the laws of Physics are definantly NOT absolute.

I never said an intelligent designer was not probabal…What I said In the above theory is that even if he was Intelligent he would not be able to cancel the chaotic factors in his makeup passing on to his creation.

Plus everything is made from the essance of chaos itself,
That about sums it up.

Um, yeah…let me try to get his back on track.
I think the whole idea of proving that there must be a God through science is unneccessary, and gives too much ground not only to science, but to the importance and almost reverence people have towards science, or should I say, natural philosophy. A theism grounded in a true religion doesn’t need science, while they should not conflict, a religionist doesn’t need to look there for evidence. Maybe corroboration, but that’s different.

03.26.07.2064

Nice comment… now… if only we could communicate THAT to Creation Scientists… :D/

Say what? Since when is everything we do and know a “purpose”?

:-s :confused: :-k

…hmmm…

I don’t get it.

Sagesound

They’re dead wrong, but I do feel bad for them- I think they exist as a response to people who say science ‘beat’ religion somehow. In other words, they are answering a challenge, not starting trouble.