Proof of God

I’d like to ask you two questions and see where that “leads us”:

1. Do you exist?

If you answer “no” or “don’t know”, I’d like to hear your logic/explanation behind that.

If you answer “yes”, I’ve got a next question for you.

2. Can something come into existence from nothing?

And with “nothing” I mean “true nothing” or say “absolute nothing”. Outer empty space appears to be nothing to us, but it’s still something, as science tells us, there are quantum fluctuations going on (which make particles to jump into existence and out of it) even if our senses cannot detect them at all, and so, with “nothing” I mean absence of everything, including quantum fluctuations or anything else we might not even imagine now.

If you answer “yes”, I’d like to hear your logic/explanation behind that.

if you answer “no”, then we can (try and) make some logical conclusion about it…

So, when you connect the two answers above, what do you “see”? Do you see something like this:

  1. Your existence proves that something exists.
  2. Since you are aware of this, it proves awareness exist.
  3. Your existence also proves that something exists since ever or you could not exist now.

So, we have something, we have awareness and we have eternity.

Is it really a big leap in logic to think that given eternity and given awareness of something, or simply, awareness, that:

4. Something aware evolved to a “point of perfection”.

One might call that God, or, as I call it: “Ultimate State of Beingess”.

Whatchathink?

Hello Boyan-

These are very difficult questions! How are you getting past question number one and two? I am lost, sorry.

My early-morning understanding of the proposition in the OP is this: “The possibility exists that a God-like entity could evolve or could have evolved somewhere in the universe.”

I think to continue we need a definition of God (brain capacity, range of powers, etc.) and if the suggestion is waiting to be made that we were “designed” by this or one of these gods, then we need evidence for that.

you describe empiricism as “proof” (justification) for the necessary entailment of reality and awareness. this is correct.

your proof or justification for eternity seems a little off, although i believe you have just not made yourself clear. if you are claiming that, since something cannot come from nothing (no uncaused events) this entails eternity, you are also correct on this point. further to this point, time is meaningless when applied to the totality of existence, to reality itself, as a whole. time is change; change implies multiplicity of potentials and states; this multiplicity does not exist at the sum level of reality itself as a whole. internal to this reality, the specific organizations of energy are always changing, but beyond this, the FACT of the total sum energy/entailment of all that exists is static and unchanging. time only has meaning with regard to the parts of reailty, not to reality itself, as a whole.

given arbitrary amounts of time, evolution would certainly produce the “highest” being, or perfect form of awareness. this could be called ‘god’ if you wish. certainly there exists somewhere in our universe a being which is more energetic, aware, powerful and/or extended than all others. if you wish to say this being is “omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent”, however, you need to provide further evidence for this, since these things do not necessarily follow from the fact that there must exist a “highest being”

it is certainly possible that the highest being is man; as far as we know, this is so. but since this does not entail out of necessity, there certainly is room for doubt, especially in light of the fact that the universe is so ancient and expansive… but remember that OUR universe is NOT the “totality of reality”, it is therefore NOT eternal-- it has a finite age. hence, the existence of a ‘god’ or “perfection of awareness” (if of course we assume perfection in awareness is even meaningful) becomes, at best, a possibility within our finite universe, rather than a necessity.

this “perfection of awareness” is troubling me, however… perhaps we can just define this perfection or ‘highest’ as relative rather than absolute, and go from there; this seems to eliminate much possibility for confusion and error.

Evolution doesn’t care about ‘perfection’, evolution just cares about ‘enough’.

Given a rock and a tidal sea full of plankton, evolution will produce the ‘perfect’ limpet. But how ever long you wait, even eternity, unless the surrounding conditions change and in turn demand change from the life forms dwelling there, that limpet will always be a limpet. It will never evolve into God just for fun.

Perfection is a luxury that evolution never understands. Evolution drives a station-wagon, buys cheap gas and stares at the owners of Lamborghinis as if they are insane. Evolution waits for the paperback to come out, and only buys VCDs.

We, and certainly you, generally think of perfection not in contextual terms but in absolutist - ‘Omni’… Omnipowerful, Omniscience, omnipresent, omnibus. Evolution just goes “Huh…? Why do you need to be able to benchpress a kiloton when all you’ll ever lift in real life is a spare tyre or your end of the sofa…?” Or “Why do you need to leap tall buildings in a single bound when there is a perfectly good elevator just over there…? I mean look - it’s got buttons and muzak and everything…”

To be God is not necessary, but being God is cool. I want to be God.

tab, you are correct with regard to natural evolution of simple life, non-conscious life. however, as humans who possess higher consciousness and self-awareness, we can evolve on our own; we can DIRECT our natural evolution, if we wished to do so. in this sense, intelligent life, once naturally evolved, could take its destiny and future into its own hands, and over time generate its own “perfection”, or what i would call a constant striving for the ever-higher.

sure, i conceed that ultimate absolute perfection, as a concept (such as the christian notion of God), is probably meaningless and impossible in practice; yet this does not exclude the chance that there could be some VERY high being, possessing superior intelligence and awareness in the form of a relatively-perfect consciousness. such a being would undoubtedly need to have directed its own evolution throughout its history, since you are correct, that it doesnt seem like nature would ever create the environmental pressures for such a relatively-high level of consciousness to need to evolve… of course, i guess i wouldnt discount this possibility completely, even though its hard to visualize how it would work in reality…

I do belive stuff can arrise out of nothing. In scientific terms, this is nothing being split into matter and anti-matter. The taoist said that the tao was split into yin and yang. Now you speak of true nothing being beyond the physicists’ nothing, but I think that’s a bit of a chimera. We have the words ‘not’ and the word ‘thing’ (which originally meant party, but party original meant band… sorry off-topic). So we put them together and come up with nothing. To go back to the taoist, they would say that non-tao is just impossible, the equivalent of the stuff that isn’t part of everything.

So the picture looks something like this. Empty space existed. You can say it existed eternally or that time has no meaning without matter. Either way it wasn’t doing anything until some quantum flucuation happend and we got a universe worth of quanta. The physicist actually think our universe is in an early part of it’s life. It is thought for instance many stars will last 12 times longer than the current age of the universe. So, there is no real reason to think that very advanced beings have had the time (while matter has existed) to evolve. On the other hand, I do feel we have a responsibility to improve ourselves and our works to make more and more advanced beings. So prehapse a “god” will be one of our desendants or projects. I just don’t think anyone has nessisarily beaten us to the punch.

Hey Great³,

Okay, I get you, I won’t quibble over terminology, we dream a dream of the superman.

Trouble is, being able to do everything means having to carry all the stuff that enables you to do everything. At least if you want to remain an individual.

Say I want to fly. But I don’t know specifically when I want to fly. So, I carry around retractable [insert name of superorganotech gadget here] embedded in my back. Miniturization aside, still a weight.

Say I want lazer-beam eyes. Who doesn’t. I need something to produce energy to power them, something to focus them, something to control their intensity. I also need shielding, because now they’ve been developed, every other fucker in the world wants them too. And not the pansy civil version either, but those military upgrades that can burn through walls (and people).

I want to live in Space and underwater. Okay we fit out lungs for gill option and/or nano-bot our blood to make oxygen out of glucose or some wild shit like that. But damn, now we need some kind of pressure-suit for vaccuum and natural armour to butress us for the depths. A new layer of ultra-strong skin perhaps, in a range of fashionable designs.

We’re getting a bit heavy. Screw it, let’s become superstrong. Let’s have a buckyball flexi-skeleton threaded with tungstonized titanium to act as a base for leverage, then drape ourselves with as much synthe-muscle as possible without severely changing our wardrobe. Now we need something to power all this crap, and I need to upgrade the thrust on my flying thingie-ma-jiggs - cos I just got even heavier.

And we haven’t even gotten started - fuck, I wanna walk on the sun and ski down the event horizons of supermassive black holes.

:-k

Are these the choices of ‘intelligent’ life…?

God, and wanting to become God, is all about places to go. Things to do. Evolution, and the evolution of mind, at least in my opinion, is about being in harmony with where you are, finding a place to stay. And doing within the context of your surroundings without force.

I agree, that’s a bit gay. But there you go.

[size=200]BTW.[/size]

“Something out of nothing” people. Virtual pairs, particles from nothing etc. Empty space, the colloquial vaccuum, is not empty - its energy content is not ‘nothing’ it is described by Lambda and has a value of about 10 to the power of -120. Very small, but there. Virtual pairs ‘borrow’ energy from that residual resource to manifest themselves, and in anihliation give it back.

This is not ‘something from nothing’. It’s just energy not being able to decide whether it is waveform or particulate in nature. Stupid energy.

Sounds a lot like Teilhard’s Omega Point. The problem with that, is that it is heretical from the standpoint of revealed religions. And if you take that baggage away from the notion of ‘god’, all you have is a word. A word that still contains baggage, at least insofar as people think they know what it means, but since you’ve removed the sort of baggage that allows for that understanding to work, you aren’t left with anything.

So what does such a position net us?

Yes. There is a thing x, such that x is identical to j, where j designates Jeff (me!).

I say yes. I think it’s logically possible (even if it’s improbable of occuring), since there is no syntactic inconsistency in the following assertion:

There is a thing x such that there is no thing y such that x comes from y.

I could demonstrate through truth-trees why this is logically indeterminate (i.e., it’s neither logically true nor logically false).

If there is a semantic inconsistency, I don’t see it, and would need to be shown it.

2 is not well-formed. “Awareness” cannot exist. Only THINGS exist, and awareness is not a thing. Also, by saying you exist, you ARE saying something exists. To say you exist is to say “There is something x such that x is identical to j”, where j designates me.

I’m not seeing the logical connections in your argument.

  1. Yes

  2. No

By eternity, do you mean that everything always existed? That happens to be my belief. I am a pantheist so I think that the universe is the higher power, and the universe has always existed. As you seem to have noted, it makes the most logical sense out of any other theism or atheism. Both of those require some form of creationism from what I can tell. Creationism is illogical.

Oh God, don’t make me get into the properties thing with you again! Are you now saying properties don’t exist at all? Anything that is exists. This includes actions, properties and things. If I lived in a universe without certain frequencies of light then red, for example may not exist. The fact that the “red frequency” exists means that the property “red” or “redness” exists.

Awareness doesn’t exist in terms of physical reality. In terms of physical reality, awareness is nothing (except, maybe, being “on”). It is a nothing that exists, nonetheless, outside the terms of physical reality. In that sense, God exists, outside the terms (except, maybe, “word”)… But not as God, of course… a property? “The Ultimate State of Beingess” [sic] is nothing to speak of. :-"

Right! But I think properties are metaphysical anyway, so it goes without saying that awareness is. But it exists, just metaphysically. Everything exists, but don’t EVEN get me started on that.

Say no more! (nudge-nudge…

Three Times Nothing I am waiting for you in the Forces of Evolution thread.

Bring all the asumptions you have.

'The Existence of God

The following is a except from pages 82 through 86 of Love, Power, and Justice: The Dynamics of Authentic Morality by William S. Hatcher.
Copyright 1998 by William S. Hatcher

Posted with the permission of the author

Chapter 3, section 4

The Existence of God

In the foregoing, there has been much talk of the causality relationship and the fundamental role it plays in the whole process of moral and spiritual development. We need now to take a closer look at some of the general logical properties of this relationship, as well as the logical connections between causality and a few other fundamental relations. Our purpose in undertaking this study is to establish the existence of God on a totally objective basis, as a necessary logical feature of the overall structure of reality itself.

By the term reality we mean the totality of existence, everything there is. A phenomenon is some portion of reality, and causality is a relationship between two phenomena A and B, which holds whenever A is a cause of B (symbolized A → B). This means that A contains a sufficient reason for the existence of B. More generally, everything B that exists must either be preceded by a cause A different from B (A → B and A ≠ B), or else contain within itself a sufficient reason for its existence (B → B). In the former case, we say that B is caused or other-caused and in the latter uncaused or self-caused. The principle that every existing phenomenon must either be caused or uncaused (and not both) is the principle of sufficient reason.

Another basic relation between phenomena is the relation of part to whole: we write A ∊ B whenever the entity A is a component of the system (composite phenomenon) B. Notice that A may also be composite, but must be an entity (not just an arbitrary system) in order to be a component of another system B (whether the latter is an entity or not). Two systems (whether entities or not) may also be related by one being a subsystem of the other. We write A ⊂ B whenever A is a subsystem of B. This means precisely that every component E ∊ A is also a component E ∊ B. For example, a single leaf would be a component of a tree, but all the leaves together would constitute a subsystem of the tree. If E is either a component or subsystem of B, then E is a part of B.

From the strictly logical point of view, the defining or characteristic feature of an entity A is that A can be a component of some system B, A ∊ B. In other words, entities are components while systems have components (they are composite phenomena). Moreover, some systems also are components. Thus, with respect to composition, we have three distinct categories of phenomena. A phenomenon may be noncomposite (have no components), in which case it is necessarily an entity. A phenomenon may be a composite entity, in which case it both has components and is a component. Or, a phenomenon may be composite without being an entity, in which case it has components but can never be a component.

Causality and composition are related to each other by the obvious potency principle, which says that if A → B, then A must also be a cause of E, where E is any component or any subsystem of B. In other words, to be a cause of B is to be a cause of every part of B – its components and its subsystems. This means that our notion of causality is that of complete cause (philosophy recognizes several different notions of “cause”).

Finally, the existence of a whole system obviously cannot precede the existence of its components (rather, the constitution of a whole obviously supposes and depends upon the prior or simultaneous existence of its components). We thus have the principle of limitation, which asserts that, for every composite phenomenon A, A cannot be a cause of any of its components.

It follows immediately from these principles that no composite phenomenon can be self-caused, for suppose A → A where A is composite. Then, by the potency principle A → E, where E is any component of A. But this contradicts the limitation principle.

In fact, from these valid principles of causality and composition, we can logically deduce the existence of a unique, noncomposite, self-caused, universal cause G. This entity, whose existence we prove, is God (by logical definition). This God is not some abstract figment of our imagination but the actual, ultimate cause of all existing phenomena and entities, the origin of all being.

Since the proof is easy, we give it here in full. However, the reader who already accepts and understands the existence of a universal uncaused cause (i.e., God) can safely skip the details of the proof without diminishing his or her understanding of the subsequent sections of the course.

Let V be the collection (universe) of all existing entities. Since V is composite it cannot be self-caused (see above) and so must have a cause G (different fromV itself). Thus, G → V, G ≠ V Moreover, every existing phenomenon A is either an entity, and thus a component of V, or else a system all of whose components are in V – in which case A is a subsystem of V. Thus, G is either a component or a subsystem of V. But, in either case, G → G by the potency principle. Thus, G is self-caused and hence noncomposite (no composite can be self-caused as shown above). Finally, since G → V and every phenomenon A is a part of V then by the potency principle, G is a universal cause (the cause of every existing phenomenon, including itself).

Finally, we show that G is the only uncaused phenomenon, for suppose there is another such phenomenon G’. Then G → G’ (since G is a universal cause). But since G’ is self-caused it cannot be other-caused by the principle of sufficient reason. Thus, G = G’ and the uniqueness of G is established.

This clear, logical proof of God’s existence and uniqueness is due in its essentials to the great Muslim philosopher Avicenna (ibn Sina, 980 - 1037). By making use of a few notions of modern logic, our presentation here somewhat simplifies Avicenna’s exposition.

The relationships of causality and composition, and the logical connections between them, give us the knowledge of God’s existence. This naturally raises the further question of God’s nature (what is God like?). To answer this, we need now to consider the value relation ≥, mentioned in chapter 1, and which only holds between (i.e., is meaningful for) entities. To say that the entity A is as valuable as the entity B, A ≥ B, means that A is either more refined (higher) – or at least no less refined – than B.

For example, in the physical world, humans are higher (more complex) than animals, animals higher than plants, and plants higher than minerals (inorganic substances). In the spiritual world, the relationship of higher to lower is the relationship of universal to particular (e.g., the relationship between the form of the human in the mind of God, embodied in the Manifestations, and any particular individual human soul).

The fundamental logical connection between causality and value is given by the refinement principle: where A and B are entities,

if A → B then A ≥ B. This means that any causal entity must be at least as refined as its effect. Since God is the unique universal cause, God is also the most refined entity in existence.

In particular, humans have the positive qualities of consciousness, intelligence, feelings, and will. Moreover, although each human soul has these qualities to a specific, finite, and limited degree, there is no limit to the degree that these qualities can exist generally in human beings. (For example, no matter how intelligent a given human being may be, it is possible for another human to be more intelligent.) Since God is the unique cause of every human being, God must have these positive qualities (and undoubtedly others) to a degree greater than every limited (finite) degree, thus to an unlimited (infinite) degree. Hence, God is infinitely conscious, infinitely knowing, infinitely loving, and infinitely willing (all-powerful). In fact, since God is the only Being whose existence is absolute (i.e., uncaused), God has these qualities to an absolute degree.

Thus, the logical answer to the question “what is God’s nature?” is to say that “God is like us except for possessing none of our limitations and all of our positive qualities to an infinite degree.” Of course we cannot really imagine what it means to possess such qualities as consciousness or will to an infinite degree, but the refinement principle does nevertheless gives us at least a minimal, purely logical notion of God’s nature.


Footnotes:

  1. We have already observed (cf. chapter 1 above) that an authentic relationship with God constitutes the very basis of authentic morality. However, there is a widespread conception that knowledge of God’s existence can only be based on subjective emotions or an act of “blind faith.” By establishing God’s existence in an objective and logical manner we seek to implement 'Abdu’l-Bahá’s definition of faith as. “…first, conscious knowledge, and second, the practice of good deeds.” (Bahá’í World Faith, p.383) Once we have attained to the conscious knowledge of God’s existence, we have fulfilled the first of 'Abdu’l-Bahá’s conditions of faith and can then proceed to the second stage, which is “good deeds,” i.e., the establishment of an appropriate (authentic), ongoing dialogue (relationship) with God.

  2. For more on the proof of the existence of God, see appendix II, pp.139-141. Professional philosophers should take note here of my somewhat broader (and thus slightly nonstandard) definition of the term “phenomenon.” This usage is consistent throughout the present work.

  3. For an extended discussion of this proof and its historical context, see The Law of Love Enshrined, pp. 19-42.


Excerpted from Love, Power, and Justice: The Dynamics of Authentic Morality by William S. Hatcher (Bahá’í Publishing Trust: Wilmette, IL, 1998) pp 82-86.

© Copyright 1998 by William S. Hatcher’

onecountry.org/e102/e10214xs.htm

This right here is the philosophy of pessimism. The idea that parents are better than children. Tool-makers are better than their tools. That the master is better than the slave. That it is impossible to make something more perfect out of substrate that is less perfect. In a universe governed by this priniciple, you have a god that is perfect, creating things that are less perfect, whose own products and actions are even less perfect than that. It’s a terrible universe.

I belive that the first cause was not perfect, except perhapse to say perfectly simple. And the hydrogen it spewed forth was better than it. And that the stars that the hydrogen formed was better then the hydrogen. That the life that formed around the stars is even better than those stars, and so on things will get better and better. I’m an optimists.

Well at least you accept the first cause.

Toolmakers are better than their tools.

Give it a century or two, we’re almost ready to obsolete the human race.