Public Awareness

I read today that political strategists are relying on public indifference to the real implications of world debt in order to continue their lobbying against financial reform. Reform of Wall Street practices, as proposed by the Dodd-Frank Act and passed in 2010, haven’t been instigated. Instead, they’ve been ignored.

No jobs have been ‘created’ as a result of tax breaks, no money has been injected into the economy by the wealthy. The EU nations are faced with Greece, Portugal and Ireland–not to mention teetering countries such as Spain and, perhaps, Italy and France. The EU needs to do this in order to preserve the value of the Euro.

The US must do what it can do to not default on payments on it’s loans. Does this mean to raise the debt limit? Or does it mean that tax loopholes for corps and the very rich need to be closed?

Does the western world’s population really understand the results of financial collapse?

I’m posting this because I said I’d come up with some sort of ‘new idea’ for discussion. So, let’s discuss.

We need a new world order.

Someone give me a new world order. That will fix everything.

In the meantime I think we should focus on the artificial problems created by the people who create money – a lack of money.

Why are you waiting for ‘someone’ to give you “a new world order?” Or are you being facetious? Why not create the “new world order” yourself?–or, at least, you in cooperation with other members of ILP?

By saying what you’ve said, aren’t you showing what I decry in my OP?

What are those ‘artificial’ problems?’ How can you and I solve those problems given our only recourse–writing on a web page?

As individuals, we disperse our interests, thus have no concentration of effort, thus have no influence.
As a group, we have dispersed interests, thus have no concentration of effort, thus have no influence.
With no influence apparent, there can be no hope with which to inspire concentration of effort, thus no hope of influence.
With no hope of influence, there is no “solving those problems”, but rather merely tumbling in the storm we continue to create.
Until there is harmony of effort, there is no body, there is no “we”.

I’m afraid James is correct.
if anything can be of positive influence it would have to be the visible, combined effort of respected members of society.

Sadly our “leaders” (the ones opportune enough to benefit from our indifference) are anything but visible or respectable. We may have to turn to our popular artists, actors musicians and such, who have gathered some capital and influence by doing different things than extorting and exploiting (rare!). They are respected and visible. They could be the key to creating a momentum.

I’ve always thought it would eventually come to this, the necessity to use those members of society on whom the people have voluntarily bestowed riches.

Total idealism, I know. But then that is less ridiculous than the status quo, so that is not an objection.

I agree, JSS is correct when he says:

I also agree we have to turn to our artists–but where do we find them? Where are our Millers, our Steinbecks, our cummings, our interpreters of life? And, if we’re in a creative drought–which happens–aren’t we responsible for the needed creation of a nurturing environment–a sort of primordial ‘sea’–from which creativity emerges?

In the interim, however, is there anything thought can provide?–real, true, bumbling human thought? It’s been done before, why not now?

Public awareness of a oncoming financial collapse? The herd can’t even figure out that a majority of them are already oppressed, subjugated, and living under a tyranny. No, the majority of people will never be aware where those at the top of the food chain will continue to prey upon them when it concerns their hopes, fears, ignorances, and imaginations.

If a financial collapse does come I can guarantee you that the masses will be culled into it unknowingly until it’s all too late. They have been thus far. Hell, we already raised the debt ceiling where discussions of another bailout keeps arising.

Were going to ride this gravy train into oblivion where afterwards when the big global crash comes that’s when the real type of fun is going to begin. :banana-dance:

Brilliant summary… but I won’t sit back to watch the show as long as I have the idea it could be different.

Lizrose: I am not so much interested in artists with an elevated perspective -
I could provide them with that perspective -
but in their money and possible influence. Artists are usually less hardheaded than simple businesspeople. They have a capital in terms of talent to create or represent value, they are the product, they don’t rely on their faul tactics to scramble together riches at the cost of others.

Right now the artists community has no pride whatsoever, result of postmodernism I would say -
the division of popular and “serious” art has been deadly to the power of the artist to shape society.

Since the postmodern artists seem too hardheaded to connect to the world besides commenting on it from an ivory tower, hope would have to be placed in popular artists, who are used to having influence on masses.

What James has been saying about film, about the hypnotic quality of every frame, is true - and nowadays films are made to drain real man of responsibility. This could theoretically change but a trend would have to be set. Same with music.

What the dichotomy serious/popular art lacks is what Lacan calls a Master-Signifier. A few decades ago there was such a signifier in terms of “peace and love”. This was a great impulse as far as the passion and will involved was concerned, but the idea was not intelligent enough, “peace” is a fantasy if it is based an anarchistic ideas. Anarchy is war.

As far as real thought goes, if the ideas of self-harmony and self-valuation are understood, they have a great impact, and if this impact would occur en masse, it would forever change mans attitude toward the world, he would happily take responsibility.

Both ideas are designed to increase value and responsibility, and they are both rooted in the only area man really has individual control: his interpretation of himself.

It would be interesting to be part of the writing of a new chapter in humankind’s Book. IF (or more likely WHEN) the global crash does materialize the authors will not be those who lack values, those who have abandoned the principles that once were believed to be foundational in spiritual development. I envision those who have struggled to achieve virtue and understand its vital role in tempering a godlike character will come forth with their ink and paper. Power, as it is conceived of in the current Republic, will be rendered useless and, I hope, common sense may prevent the insidiousness of bureaucracy.

:laughing: Those in authority always worship their own ideals like it’s some sort of spirituality into which they then make them into some sort of religion for the rest to follow in being perfectly obedient to.

They worship themselves so much in their own narcissism that they feel that the very ideal of themselves everybody else through enforcement must follow as well.

Who the fuck needs all of that? :stuck_out_tongue: Abandon all ye hope.

Your utopia will never crystalize. Never in history has it ever become reality beyond old men’s fantasies. To believe in any of that is to be severely deluded.

I’d rather keep my cruel indifferent life affirming reality than such fantastic ridiculous fictions.

What is the “real type of fun” that you mention?

:laughing: I think you already know… It revolves around chaos and mayhem. I think a smart person like you knows what happens with the complete break down of societies within their collapse. If you don’t know what a lack of imagination that you have.

Pardon my interruption, but it’s nice to see you again, StylesofBeyondd.

Hello again.

I won’t answer this line-by-line, it’s too time consuming. I, too, think there are things that can be done; I also think those of us who believe change is possible are often met with blank stares. To sort of illustrate (because I think it’s a cool story, so I want to tell it,) we went to a neighbor’s birthday party this afternoon–he was 90 yrs. old today. Most of the people there were extended family, of course, but there was also a scattering of neighbors. We live in a rather sheltered community and most of us have lived here for decades. One such was a member of the Town Council when we first moved here. Aside: While many of political positions here are elected, they’re actually elected volunteers–no one runs against them.

Before he left the party, the former Council member lamented, rather plaintively, about the changes they’ve experienced in the Town–specifically how no one volunteers for anything any more–no one is willing to spend one day a month doing what they can to keep the Town running smoothly.

This sort of apathy is what any ‘changer’ will be faced with–whether artist or otherwise.

Is this an effect of postmodernism? Or is postmodernism the result of Capitalism and the need to consume in order for Capitalism to survive?

This consumerism, to me, seems world-wide. It’s helping to create an even greater division between the haves and the have nots. And it may just lead to rebellion and anarchy–to chaos and destruction–primarily because I don’t believe man has any individual control of even his interpretation of himself.

And yet, I must continue to be what I believe I am–a romantic idealist.

And where will you be, Joker, during the ‘chaos and mayhem?’ Will you cling to your rather flimsy raft of what you describe as:

emphasis added

If by all of that you mean that I plan on turning the collapse of society into my own personal celebrative party when it concerns my dark self indulgent fantasies…then, yes. :laughing:

As for flimsy I am intentionally vague at times you will find. You really got to be careful with the thought police on the internet these days in that you wouldn’t want anything to self incriminate yourself with by the watching preciding authorities.

The authorities do watch internet social forums like these. Make no mistake about it. So yes I am intentionally ambiguous, vague, and what you call flimsy at times. :wink:

Joker gives a wave to the random homeland security monitor on duty from whatever secretive undisclosed location they stem from. Hello hidden observers! I hope you like my performances.

This is an interesting discussion.

lizbethrose, I can agree with a lot of what you are saying. Clearly there has been a shift in the Puritanical value system that has been foundational in providing the individual with a sense of thrift, a sense of careful modesty. Currently the cultural milieu has placed emphasis on raw, unrestrained experience-not only does the individual contain, potentially, works of art, but instead the individual is a work of art. We have “transcended” the traditional and conservative and these concepts are not only forgotten but there is an assault on the traditional and conservative. These words are synonymous with repression, restraint, censorship and the list can certainly go on. It is sad that I can rarely find a meaningful conversation outside of the mental dialogues I imagine with the authors of the books that I read.

Joker, I also agree with a lot of what you are saying. I am almost excited to see what will happen when humankind wakes up and experiences bedlam. Internal factions that argue over which group of men hit a ball harder and more often over a fence (while the men who do this probably make more money then entire African nations) are the extent and height of our concerns. I mean can anyone tell me what the fuck the NFL is doing on national news and what this actually represents? Communities suffer, children suffer, the world suffers and virtue is killed. One can almost taste the impending collapse.

We have realized a dystopia, turn on the news; (Bradbury’s 451 is here, Orwell’s 1945 is here and Rand’s Atlas Shrugged is here. Why is that life which is utopic not possible?

I can see why you thought of that story. Decadence is the technical term I believe, for what the people with values are lamenting.

Regarding your certainty - I realize I am one of the few exceptions to the rule of nay-saying as it is compulsively done by many who are desperately trying to affirm. All one has to do is affirm affirmation, - but for that there must be things to affirm, so deep and universal that all negative valuations become positive, just relatively less than the pure capacity to valuate. Without this, there is no escape from the gravy train to oblivion, I can see that. I don’t lament those who are in that train however, it is their choice to believe the destination will be more acceptable than the social risks connected to escape.

The attitude expressed poetically by Joker is one of social obedience - an adolescent indifference has taken over western culture. An opportunity for any tyrant to crack the whip.

When I am contemptuous of those who have chained themselves, I have to remember the decade of moral self-annihilation I have put myself through to arrive at this freedom. We really have been overwhelmed by Christianity and Science - these are forces so tightly interlocking, bestowing the world from all angles with the value of nihilism and apathy - that nobody can be blamed for surrendering to this radically unreasonable onslaught on all sense and sensibility. I’m just glad I have been able to stand up to it with my mind. There’s nothing like watching the two dragons “Thou Shalt” and “Thou Shalt Not” lying at your feet, blood still hot, gushing from their throats… it commands respect for the sword of reason.

It is true that man in general has no control over his interpretation of himself, because most humans are a herd animals. But in a world of seven billion people, man in general is hardly the only significant group. The exceptions to the rule rule those included by it.

My philosophy is for artists and philosophers, influential politicians and ambitious companies, ultimately for a class of rulers. I may be megalomanic from the perspective of the one who convinces himself of his lack of power, but from my own perspective I am just beginning to make sense. And I’m quite critical, I don’t believe anything I am told without understanding how the thought arose.

That’s far too simplistic. Please try again.

You may be in for a treat. It may happen soon enough in our lifetime. :laughing:

I’ve tasted it. It tastes sweet.

Because the aspiration towards it was always doomed to failure. The aspiration is built upon hubris. It always has been. Not that I’m religious but the tower of Babel is a wonderful metaphor.

For some reason every generation seems to want to create it’s own tower of Babel and as usual the magnificent force of entropy smacks them all down repeatively.

In this case the tower of Babel and the concept of a utopia are one. Entropy will allow neither.