question about god.

question of the day.

God is all knowing, all powerful, and everywhere.

ok.

God punishes us for doing wrong (like our parents.)

ok.

So where are you god?

where are you when the little girl is raped and killed?

God can’t be those things and if he is like a “father” why oh why don’t you realize he’s like the deadbeat dad who never visits?

You’re assuming that God will always intervene in our lives if something bad happens. Even our fathers have to let us go sometimes, let us out on our own, outside of their coverings.

You’d feel better, maybe, if a lightning bolt struck down and killed everybody who deserved it? But the wrong would still have occured…perhaps maybe if a lightning bolt struck down and killed everyone who was about to do something to deserve it?

That would work but it wouldn’t really. If God was going to strike people down when they were about to do something wrong then goodbye free will - God obviously knows everything your about to do before you do it.

And if God knows everything your about to do before you do it AND is willing to intervene to stop it, then surely there is a better way than frying you. Make the killer get stuck in traffic or whatever.

I have to admit that would be pretty awesome.

God came down and destroyed Las Vegas the city “of sin”.

take out the modern sodhom(sp?).

My point is that God is like Santa Clause. He’ll screw you over if your not perfect, and the moment you need help your on your own. If god or santa are going to act like the parents who follow the mantra “spoil the rod, or spoil the child” than they had better be there to back that up.

Another mantra that I think works for a lot of people is that you can only reach god through prayer, and who knows if you’ll get a busy signal or not, some people have tried praying to god, and recieve no inspiration, no feeling at all. Yet according to “religion” as it were you are expected to be perfect, love others unconditionally, realize that we are born into a sinful nature, and if we don’t we get a the proverbial lump of coal to burn in hell.

Scythekain,
Apparently, what you are saying is that you are angry with God because he doesn’t do what you want Him to do.

When has God punished you for not being perfect, or when do you think he hasn’t helped you? In fact, it will be really hard to tell wouldn’t it? I also agree in that the raping and killing of children is evil, but the fault would be on the people who actually do these things. This lies in the fine line between free will and God’s will. If we have free will, then God does not interfere in our actions. Maybe he acts through us instead, our concience. Well, I don’t know for sure of course!
Also, I don’t think that the word mantra applies to what you are saying. I though mantras were used for meditation purposes…

My bet is that you would have a complaint with it- not that you’d voice it, for fear of being toasted.

I don’t follow. Does he do this, or doesn’t He? On one hand, you want to protray God as the abusive father figure, but on the other, you’re wondering why he doesn’t punish anybody. You can’t have it both ways…

Like I’ve said before, this just seems like venting to me. Yeah, you think religion sucks. But pretending for a moment that this was a statement intended to make a philosophical point, what would that point be? That God doesn’t do enough to make His presence known, and that the consequences for not knowing Him are too high?

you hit the nail on the proverbial coffin.

God is compared many times to a “father figure” by christian standards. My points were that he does not live up to those standards by any stretch of the imagination.

in the old testament he could be portrayed as an abusive father.

in the new testament he could be portrayed as the loving father.

but either way he’s not there

and either way the punishment for not paying total respect to him is the death of our souls.

that would be like (if any of you had a dead beat dad ( I didn’t I’m just using this as an example)) if your flesh and blood father that ran off after impreganting your mom, suddenly came back 50 years later and expected you to love him as if he’d been with you always.

Tell me that is logical.

your completely missing the point.

Hi scythekain,

I find that you are actually posing the question that Fundamentalists have to answer - and from the answers you have received, they are still weaving and winding and not admitting their own frustration. And it must be frustration and anger that one feels when a little girl (let alone tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of little girls) suffers and is killed.

There is only one answer - that God obviously does not have the nature that Fundamentalists claim he has. Scripture obviously has to be interpreted differently and we need to stop telling people lies about the expectations they can have. When ‘God’ takes action it is either something induced by inspiration, is the believers in action or someone suffers a fate that is found to be suitable for a certain crime.

I experience the Mystery we call ‘God’ as an inspiration, I act according to the wisdom I find in Scripture and I interprete life with the hope and trust that it all makes sense some day. But it is faith, not knowledge.

Shalom
Bob

bob,

thank you for hitting the point exactly.

It seem’s to be a common human failure in that we confuse the metaphor with an anthropomorphic image that become’s more real than reality.

“Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” Such a simple statement.
We sagely acknowledge this with an affirmative nod of the head and immediately go out and break the commandment. We hang crosses on every available wall, put little fish on our trunk lids, make pilgramages to holy places, venerate shrouds and bones, and on and on…

The vision of creator carried around in the heads of the ‘religious’ is an affront to the very concept of that which they call God. Expectations of “God the father” is man’s creation. Leave creator out of it.

The world is a place of good and evil. If we have a creator, then perhaps we should have expectations of ourselves to do that which is beneficial and avoid malignancy. I would argue that we have been given all we need to get through this life. If there is a creator, then he/she has done their part and the rest of it up to us. Do that which is good, fight that which is evil.

JT

JT,
you and bob got my point exactly, it is only by thinking we understand the nature of god, and trying to make him more human that we mistakenly apply non god like traits to him.

Scythekain,
What I get from your posts is that you are angry at God for not “being there” when we need him, like a bad father (If that’s not the point, then you should make your posts a little clearer). The fact that God is referred to as a “father” means that it is the closest description for Him. That does not mean that he necessarily acts like your biological father, or that He is the best dad. I think that it is more of a “universal father.”

Bob,

Well, there is a way to find out if it is true, but more of a personal truth. I think that the answer here is in studying if miracles did or did not happen. It’s a real shame that the word miracle, like many other words, has become an emotionally charged though.
There is one set of miracles that I find difficult to try to understand, and that is what happened in Medugorje, Yugoslavia. It is really interesting.

I think that also the problem with believing in something like God is that it would require us to actually do some research or have a real desire to find out. It’s a lot easier to say that God does or doesn’t exist without really finding out if it’s true or not. This is something that most people (including myself) sometimes are too lazy to do.

rafhdl,

I was making a point that when we view god like the “Old man in the sky”, or as our father, it is in fact a flawed view, and if we view him as such he could easily become the bastard I described above. The fact that god is “not there” should be obvious. God is impossible to describe, he’s not like the christian god though. If god were omnipotent and created our universe, why’d he take 4 billion years to create man? We’ve only been around for the past 500,000 years at the most. and only the past 4000 years has judeo-christian beliefs been around. (which are based a great deal on Babylonian-Sumerian myths from 6000 years ago.)

To put another way. man discovered his spiritual nature, man in power used that nature to control man. later men corrupted what were “allegorical tales” and turned them into fact, to control men to a greater degree. God became the father and woman became mans subjugate.

So where are you, scythecain, where are you!

Have you put pressure on your politicains to respond to the massacres in Darfur Sudan? Or have you even responded personally? Do you pray for peace?

You are God’s hands in this world. If you do the work of God, God’s will will be done. It is up to YOU to make your world better.

Now, descending from theory into practice, there is a measure in the US Congress to penalise companies form doing business in Sudan – they won’t even appear on the stock market. If you agree with this measure, contact your local congressman. I could post more information if you’re interested.

“Whatever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me.”
“Love your neighbor as yourself.”

Now THAT’s an act of religion!

And now I have put SUCH a burdern on myself not to be a hypocrite!!

Yours cordially,
my real name

So where are you, scythecain, where are you!

Have you put pressure on your politicains to respond to the massacres in Darfur Sudan or in Rwanda? Or have you even responded personally? Do you pray for peace?

You are God’s hands in this world. If you do the work of God, God’s will will be done. It is up to YOU to make your world better.

Now, descending from theory into practice, there is a measure in the US Congress to penalise companies from doing business in Sudan – they won’t even appear on the stock market. If you agree with this measure, contact your local congressman. I could post more information if you’re interested.

“Whatever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me.”
“Love your neighbor as yourself.”

Now THAT’s an act of religion!

And now I have put SUCH a burdern on myself not to be a hypocrite!!

Yours cordially,
my real name

my real name, (if that is your real name!)

read this

ilovephilosophy.com/phpbb/vi … 33#1604933

I don’t pray for peace because I know the prayers will go unanswered. God doesn’t “answer” prayers like that.

we are not gods hands in this world, that’s ridiculous. Are you saying a Satanist is gods hands? An Atheist? or only you and fellow christians? But then we get into the fact that not all christians do “good” so only people who do good when they do good they are not acting of themselves but of “god’s hands”.

That sounds extremely superstitious.

You realize congress only listens to lobbies? I’ve contacted my local congressman several times they do not listen, you vote them out vote someone else in same result. They listen to the money, and pretend to be voting for the people.

Politics is a joke in our world. Democracy is it’s stage.

Yes an impossible act. Unconditional love is impossible. Should you love your neighbor if they are a rapist or terrorist? is that ok? I’m sure you would come out and say “I love my neighbor who raped my daughter.”

Does that make the golden rule (which was taught by buddha also) invalid? No. It just makes it that much harder to practice. you should still treat others with the same respect you would expect to be treated with, but don’t act all high and might like only religious people act that way. Many religious people act exactly the opposite way in the name of christ.

Rafhdl,

I don’t find ‘miracles’ predictable, but I have often looked back and thanked for being brought through a time of tension, danger or desorientation. The appearance of the ‘Virgin Mary’ in places of great tension like Medugorje is often the ‘answer to prayers’ in a different way than we expect. But these things happen and are inexplicable – sometimes for ever. The answers that people receive are often dependent upon the origins of that person, or their personal interests, but the fact remains that these occurences leave a deep impression on the people who experience them.

But is that a reliable source of information on the nature of God? Can we ‘promise’ miracles? Can we not just appreciate what happens and say, ‘I don’t know’? I don’t know where it came from, I have had no ‘message’ regarding these things. I can see what effect it had and that is important but I know no more.

I was reading Job last night and it occurred to me that he is damned angry. Boy, is he angry. But he isn’t angry because he doesn’t believe in God, but because he does believe. He is angry because he has put his trust in God and now he feels himself betrayed. He cannot deny God, he cannot simply become an Atheist and carry on with his life. He has invested too much. He has committed himself and made his decision.

But that decision hasn’t brought prosperity, but loss. He was once the opinion that God is with the righteous and therefore Job obeyed the Law, and God was with him. He was convinced that God cared for him and that he was in God’s hands, and every breath was granted to him by his creator.

He still is in the Book of Job. He says that the cattle can instruct those who haven’t comprehended the message – or even the birds of the sky can inform us. Nature understands, but humans don’t. Humans can distinguish the value of a statement just as they can distinguish one food from another – but they haven’t understood the grace of God.

God baffles us. God baffles Job. How can these paradoxes exist? How can God expect us to cope with such paradoxes? How can he sanction us in the way he does? How are the righteous expected to find orientation when we are sanctioned in ths way?

But does God sanction? Does he reward and punish? We believe he does. We even have Scriptures that tell us so! But does God really sanction? Was he first of all kind to Job and now he punishes him? Is that what the friends of Job are trying to tell him? That seems to be what everybody believes – how can Job doubt that God is good to the righteous?

If his friends are right, the Job wants God in the dock. He wants a trial and God is the accused! If the agreement is that God blesses the righteous and punishes the guilty, then God has some explaining to do! “Only grant me two concessions” he says, “Let us meet as equals and let me speak first.”

But the confrontation in the tempest is unequal, and it becomes very clear that there can be no equality and there is no knowledge. There is no agreement, there are no sanctions. There are instructions and directions, but no sanctions. God needs no sanctions.

Job answers:
2 “I know that you can do all things, And that no purpose of yours can be restrained.
3 You asked, ‘Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have uttered that which I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I didn’t know.
4 You said, ‘Listen, now, and I will speak; I will question you, and you will answer me.’
5 I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees you.
6 Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes.”

There are no sanctions and no need of sanctions – but there are instructions and directions. They indicate the will of God for Israel and the direction of the ‘chosen’. Anything else is diversion or perversion of what is good. Anything else doesn’t achieve the good that Israel wants for its people. It is as simple as that.

And today, when people are disappointed with God, it is the God of their dreams and wishes. It is the ‘old man in the sky’ or whatever other idea they have, but not the Mystery, the Eternal One, the Creator. We shouldn’t mistake the reams of paper full of words as ‘knowledge’ – the Words of God in Job are trying to prove quite another point: We know nothing about him!

Shalom
Bob

Bob,

Actually, there are promises that the Virgin Mary has supposedly given to the select group in the form of “secrets,” to see if the people will finally believe in her message. One of the seers, Mirjana, will announce the secrets 3 days before each occur. Of course, there are more things than only the promises, but I am only mentioning the latter since this post is concerned with God’s actions.

I definitely agree. However, their should be at least something that we can know about God.

In the Judeo-Christian tradition it is in the Torah that instruction and direction are given - for Christians Christ ‘fulfilled the law’ and was in effect the personification of the Torah. This is however subject to trust or faith and not to be regarded as ‘objective fact’.

The problem we have is that a Gospel as a kind of genuine Diary of an Apostel or Jesus himself wouldn’t present us with the information we need ‘to believe’ as the Evangelist ‘John’ stresses in particular. If we could have televised Jesus talking to the poor and preaching in the temple, we would be no more moved than by watching a report on Mother Teresa. If Paul had written a theological treatise instead of letters, we would probably put it aside before reaching the midle. If miracles were conclusive, why did Jesus get crucified after all? Besides which, we wouldn’t find the Church deciding that the age of miracles was over in the second century AD.

I can acknowledge that these things happen, and I know that they are important to people. But we have to put them into perspective and understand the nature of things before we start commending things that rational people have to criticise. Rationality, as long as it is not the only measure we use, is after all just as much a gift of God as the ability to love.

Shalom
Bob