Question about Indian Courts (Native Americans, not Zinnati)

Philosophy Forums Society, Government, and Economics
1

Duro Fix
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribal_ … ted_States

I was reading about the evolution of tribal sovereignty in the US, and came across a curious clause, called a Durofix. Apparently, Indian Tribes until 2013 (and only very limited since then, with habeas corpus and juries for rape cases so we don’t have Canadian style rapefests of native women) couldn’t prosecute Americans of any race… except Indians, on their lands, but it had a weird exception… it had the right to prosecute Indians on their land NOT of their tribe.

From everything I’ve read, I’m left questioning how in the fuck is this legal? If your not a member of said tribe, then your status is just that of any ordinary US Citizen… how can your ethnicity subjugate you to a legal authority seen generally unfit to oversee and convict a white, black, or Asian, but is completely in the right to nail a Indian of precisely the same offence, that isn’t a member of that tribe?

Lets say 10 holligans sneak on a Indian reservation… all Americans, in a fraternity… they vandalize everything in sight. One of the 10 is a Indian from a very distant tribe, a few generations removed from the land, but still enrolled… they didn’t think much of their status, served in the military, lived in a town for a few generations… only went back to reservation for holidays.

How is this guy suddenly applicable for being prosecuted by this alien tribe, while everyone else gets to go off to federal court, just cause he is a Indian, but the wrong Indian. Shouldnt his anti-discrimination rights of being a American First, override any claim of jurisdiction? I wasn’t under the impression you can lose your constitutional rights by race alone… these tribes don’t have to recognize your constitutional rights, except for those who have them… which is apparently anyone living off reservation, who is a different race, save those unlucky enough to be born a Indian.

It just seems incredibly fucked up and unfair… tribal as l laws should only apply to that tribe, if they aren’t using a full blown, full constitutional rights court system. Nobody should get shafted in terms of justice just cause your ethnicity. Its really cute and all we let them have half assed court systems that only partially recognize the constitution, but when your in the US, not a member of said tribe, it’s not natural to assume just cause your of native American descent, some other tribe can prosecute you, but not your friends, for a identical crime, restricting your rights but not theirs. Its intolerable and intolerable to restrict theirs, but not yours? Fuck that…

Such a court is a abomination… which brings up a question… can one tribe hearing that one of it’s members just got completely dicked over by another tribe, in a scenerio such as above, declare war and savagely beat their asses into submission?

I recall the Seminole tribe declaring war on the Axis Powers in WW2. Could the Seminole get tired of the Pueblo Indians always discriminating and fucking over it’s members, even those a few generations moved off the reservation… and just load some guns in a trunk, drive out to Pueblo land and blow the place up legally?

It seems like the obvious recourse if this segment of the population doesn’t have resort to the federal court system, like we give to every other American and Foreigner. This shit is absurd. You shouldn’t lose your constitutional rights in any locale just cause your the wrong ethnicity.

2

I don’t mean to defend the system, it’s the product of a messed up history and I agree that it’s a messed up system. But I don’t think this aspect is that difficult to rationalize.

First, take two actually distinct nations. If Canada were going to prosecute a US citizen, it’s quite possible that the US government would get involved to protect its citizens. If a French citizen were going to be prosecuted by Canada, the US would not get involved.

This isn’t the case with US Indians, my understanding is that they are US Citizens. But consider a case where the French citizen is also a US citizen, I think the US is still less likely to get involved: France and Canada may have their own treaties governing crimes committed by their citizens on each other’s soil. The existence of that relationship could well affect whether the US would intervene. And it would at least complicate the issue, and make it different from the situation where the accused is only a US citizen.

So, the quasi-sovereign nature of US Indian tribes complicates the situation, not just racially, but because two quasi-sovereign tribes can have relations with each other that don’t involve the US: part of their sovereignty would be the ability to subject their citizens to the courts of another sovereign land.

This is being overly charitable, I’m sure, and I’m sure it was at least racially motivated. But it doesn’t have to be as unfair as it actually is in practice.

3

Yeah… but, in this case, every Indian nation has vassalage to the US Congress of sorts. Its not literally stated as vassalage, but from what I’ve seen, it’s more or less that.

Like, I don’t think America Samoa falls under thus, or the Alaskan tribes.

But let’s say… I’m part native American, not certain how much (I honestly am, and am uncertain)… I’m at a casino, someone yells fire, we all stampede scared as shit out.

Now… police respond, tribal police, bring us to safety… do tests on us. Completely unbeknownst to us, this includes DNA Swabs… we all get tested. 3-4th of everyone is sent away on a bus to court with the feds outside the camp, but I and everyone left behind look fully white, black, hispanic… we have no idea why we are being held.

All the non Indians find out in federal court they got charged with a bullshit case, destruction of property, joining a riot (by escaping a hypothetical fire), disorderly conduct, etc… judge throws that shit out instantly.

Meanwhile, Dave Chapelle, Myself, Carlos Mencia, and who ever else you want looking blatantly and culturally anything but Indian, have just been declared sufficiently Indian to face these bullshit charges.

We ask for a lawyer, we get laughed at. We have no such right. We ask to know our charges… nope. We try to escape, get our ass beatfour, far beyond what is required to haul us back. We are brought to court, we are charged under our Indian names… names we didn’t even know we had. I’m Chief Tinycock of the Mingoes, as I’m informed. Year in jail, big ass fine, for trying to save my life, when someone yelled fire.

I try to appeal, no court will recognize my claim till all appeals are recognized on the tribal level… despite me not being a Indian… but the Indian tribe has proof I’m a Indian, sufficient enough to randomly hold me and Black Face (Dave Chapelle) in a cell together. He gets no chicken, I get no juice. Why?Cause we are Indians first, and not Americans first.

4

I don’t think tribal membership is predicated exclusively on DNA. Also, your hypothetical is only as galling as it is because you assume that the courts you would be subject to are unable to provide justice.

Setting that aside, look at it another way: a nation state should have jurisdiction over everyone in its territory. The US has forced the tribes to relinquish such jurisdiction over certain individuals in their territory. That’s an affront to their sovereignty. The Duro fix makes it so that their sovereignty is expanded, so that more individuals in tribal territory are subject to tribal courts. That’s an expansion of jurisdiction. And what’s more, it’s based on nationality, which is what tribal membership is if tribes are sovereign. It’s international law, and how sovereign nations treat the citizens of other sovereign nations.

5

Naw… see, they didn’t have courts, they had wars. I’m well studied in the colonial history of my area.

Secondly, we built their justice system, then decided out of the blue it was okay for them to half ass it, and only recognize some of the laws.

Thirdly, their ability to determine who us and isn’t of the tribe is squirrely as fuck… some tribes utterly fuck over women… this has been well documented… yet being a legal member of a tribe, getting it’s benefits (casino benefits, hunting, housing) isn’t extended to those it decides aren’t tribal… yet still are subject to their courts.

Honestly… fuck that. If your not recognized as a member of that tribe, essentially eating their bread… the excuse Socrates gave for accepting his punishment, then they don’t get to prosecute your in their stupid, mutilated courts, cause from that point on your status is simply put American… your no longer a member of that nation.

We are essentially suppressing constitutional amendments that arouse in the civil war era, to stop persecution on the basis of race, in order to continue on a mindfuck scenario that Indians are too retarded to figure out national law precedent, how laws and courts work.

Their court system isn’t descended from pow-pows. We made that, it’s a 20th century invention. They have lawyers, police forces with modern equipment, Judges… I was very supportive that they can prosecute rape cases (we really don’t want what happened in Canada for so long happening here)… I don’t think they are sleeping in wigwams and lifting up rotten trunks looking for grub worms for breakfast anymore. They almost certainly are equally as wealthy and well educated as the rest of the population, just as American.

I’m not asking for the reservations to be closed down, or their legal system merged under state level courts. What I’m asking is full recognition of federal statutes, stop persecuting Indians not of their tribe… and everyone get full constitutional rights.

No one should get ducked over for being a Indian, especially by other Indians. Its the 21st century, they got internet and satellite TV, many went to college, joined the internet. Just regularized your court system. All Americans get equal justice. I will have zero issue with their cops and courts if I know I have this protection if I happen to be driving through a reservation, get a flat tire, and some squirrely unexpected shit that wouldn’t legally be allowed elsewhere in the US due to constitutional protections. Do they even got to read Miranda Rights? Can I be prosecuted without knowing my charge? Do I have a right to a phone call, defence attorney? Do I get the option of trial by combat?

Like… it can literally be anything, when they aren’t required to follow the constitution. The clauses they accept don’t even have to be interpreted the same way as the rest of the country.