Question to Christians everywhere. Please read.

I have always wondered why Christians do not spend the time to look deeper into their faith, it’s origins. I wonder, what would a Christian say when provided with the following evidence?

  • The following is written entirely by me using a paper I wrote 8 years ago. Research was initiated by me and all data and evidence was collected from many sources, all books.

December 25th, the ‘birth of the Christ’ -

The day that Jesus Christ was born. Many deities have shared this day, December 25th, as their holy birth into the world and mostly all of them came before Christianity’s Jesus - but that’s for another conversation. The explanation for the date is simple. On December 21st-22nd, we observe the winter solstice. This means that the Sun’s light, in the northern hemisphere, is at the faintest, or ‘weakest’, point in it’s annual cycle. It is this event that had many ancient cultures declare that the Sun had symbolically ‘died’ and was regarded as the end of it’s annual cycle. However, the Sun must end winter and begin the next cycle of it’s ‘life’ and so, on December 25th, the Sun begins it’s journey back to Spring and is therefore, symbolically ‘ressurected’ after 3 days. It is on this day, December 25th, that is the first day of the Sun’s return to Spring, and eventually to Summer, it’s most powerful time. Therefore, it was widely held that the Sun was ‘born’ on December 25th.

Anywhere on or between March 22nd-April 25th , Easter -

The Church follows a few rules to set this date. The first is that Easter must be held on the first Sunday after the first ecclesiastical (not astronomical) full moon that occurs on or after the day of the vernal equinox. The second is that the vernal equinox will be permanently set as March 21st. This was done so that Easter would always coincide with the Sun’s entrance into the astrological sign of Aries. Now, Aries is depicted as a ram, but has also been interpreted as a lamb. This is because, in the Greek language, the word for lamb is ‘aren’. It is very similar to the word ‘Aries’. What does the Greek language have to do with this? Because the New Testament was originally written in Greek and the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) was first translated into Greek, the Septuagint. Therefore, Aries also known as the ram or the lamb, is also sacrificed at Easter. It was at this time that lambs and bulls and such were sacrificed because it was believed it would please the Sun and bring a great harvest. In other words, the blood of the lamb would wash away their sins.

EDIT1 : I will add another piece, this time explaining a popular story in the Old Testament.

The story of Samson

He was very strong. However, he lost his strength when his hair was cut. All of his problems began when he met a woman, Delilah, and entered her home. This is interepreted as the Sun having entered the astrological house of Virgo, a woman. The Sun passes through the house of Virgo in the 1st month of autumn, which just happens to be the first season after Summer - the start of the Sun’s decline of strength towards the end of it’s annual cycle or symbolic ‘death’. The story of Samson is the story of the Sun and it’s annual cycle. Samson —> Samsun, or Sam the Sun. In Hebrew, the very name Samson means ‘sunlight’. This is etymologically related to ‘bayth shemesh’, Hebrew for ‘house of the sun’.

EDIT #2 - I will begin to add explanations from the New Testament.

  • The name Jesus Christ

We get this name of Jesus Christ of which to use with authority against the devil. “In Jesus name, I…” The truth is that the name Jesus Christ is incorrect. It is an incorrect, albeit intentional, transliteration of the Greek name Ieosus, that was again an incorrect, albeit intentional, translation of the original Hebrew name Yeshua, a contraction of the Hebrew name ‘Jehoshua’, pronounced yeh-ho-shoo-ah. The name Yeshua meaning, ‘Jehovah saves’. The reason the Greeks began the intentional change of the Hebrew name is because of gematria. Ieosus has a numerical value, in greek, of 888. Satan is 666. 888 and 666 was used everywhere, including in famous places as the construction of Stonehedge (distance between each other). Why 888? Because 888 is the whole tone, pure, in music and 666 is a half tone, impure and incomplete. This was used in meditation and prayer. Now, from the Greek Ieosus to Jesus Christ. During the time of Constantine’s most random ‘conversion’ and subsequent formation of the Catholic Church in the Roman empire, it would have been translated into Latin ‘Iesus’ and therefore Jesus. However, the name’s manipulation was already done. The ‘Christ’ is just from the greek ‘Christos’ meaning messiah. Jesus the messiah. Unless you believe God plays with numbers, the obvious manipulation of the name to coincide with humanity’s importance in numerology must trouble you.

  • Jesus’ significance

The birth of Jesus was heralded in the skies, according to the bible. The 3 Kings followed the signs in the sky, a star, to reach the new King, Jesus. Once again, astrology. When you look at the zodiac circle :

(image originally free to use, it was modified by me in

Virgo, the celestial virgin, sits across from Pisces. Mary, the mother, gives birth to Jesus. Right before Pisces, is Aries. Therefore, Jesus, the lamb of god, comes to herald the death (crucifixcion) of the lamb (age of aries) and bring the new age of Pisces (ressurection). Is not Jesus associated with fish? He promises to return. Yes, to symbolize the death of the age of Pisces and bring in the next age, the age of Aquarius. You may say to yourself, yes Jesus is associated with fish, but wasn’t it because of the story about the fisherman on the boat?

  • Jesus’ miracle fish catch

In the gospels, it says Jesus told the man to throw the net and he would catch fish. The man threw it, and he caught 153 fish. Why would the number be remembered? They counted each and every fish and recorded it? I’m sure you already know what I am about to explain, but if you don’t, you are guessing it was written like that for a reason. Numerology once again. Sacred pagan geometry.

When two circles are joined together, one circle symbolizing the spirit and the other symbolizing the flesh, the area that is overlapped is called the union. This area represents spirit and flesh together as one, God made into Flesh, Jesus. Out of this shape, we obtain the famous fish shape.

The vesica piscis. The ratio of height to length of this shape is 153:265, a formula known to Archimedes in the 3rd century BCE as the measure of the fish. It is a powerful mathematical tool, being the nearest whole number approximation of the square root of 3 (there it is again) and the controlling ratio of the equilateral triangle.

  • Jesus’ miracles have been done before by other Son of gods. Many times.

…to be continued

  • Jesus choosing 12 disciples

…to be continued

I desire an answer from literalist Christians. How do you feel about this? How do you explain all of this? Has anything inside of you changed?

I think your reasoning’s a little sloppy at the end of your second argument. Bringing a good harvest is a different motive from forgiveness of sin. No?

I think the connection of the lamb with Spring in the Jewish tradition was to mark the houses of the Jewish people in Egypt at the Passover.
Christianity, one would expect to be closer to Jewish tradition.

Do you know of the theory that the Christmas star was a conjunction of Jupiter with Venus in the sign of the Lion, which represented the house of Judah?

  1. Sacrifice animal (mostly lambs or bulls), praise God (Sun) and ask for great harvest, reap reward (better crops).

  2. Jesus, the lamb of god. His body was sacrificed, pray for forgiveness to please God, reap reward (Heaven)…

I thought it was pretty clear. Anyone who has ever wondered why God has to follow some mysterious universal rule that forces Jesus to shed his blood for our forgiveness can now understand.

I have never met a Christian, who’s age was in the double digits, that actually thought Jesus was born on Christmas or died on Easter, though they may not understand the reasons for the dates. That the holidays were based on existing pagan holidays in the region is a pretty well known fact among believers, and more to the point, the Orthodox Church sees this as the early Church sanctifying those festivals, making them holy and appropriately focused. What could be wrong with that?

Even I will say that the Bible, especially the Pentateuch, is a work of literature that has to be taken as such. Yeah, the Bible is full of contradictions but my studies have led me to believe that it was never meant to be taken literally (a fact that makes me even more dumbfounded by the Bible Literalists). I’m an atheist but it seems obvious in analyzing the Bible we see sophisticated literary devices being employed.

No, no intelligent, learned person believes Christ was born on Dec 25th. We have no idea when (or, the impish part of me has to say, if :stuck_out_tongue: ) the personage of Jesus Christ was born, nor does that seem particularly important. In antiquity the birth date of an individual is often nebulous; the date of their death is often better documented. Think about it- at birth we’re all tabula rasa (hi, Tab!): Only our later deeds merity historical note.

It’s not just dates. The implication of all of this is not to just shrug off the dates and accept pagan influence, which is widely denounced as works of the devil, and just move on. The entire Bible is not to be taken literally, as is the case with a huge percentage of the world’s Christian population.

Here is the explanation for the well-known OT story about Samson -

The story of Samson

He was very strong. However, he lost his strength when his hair was cut. All of his problems began when he met a woman, Delilah, and entered her home. This is interepreted as the Sun having entered the astrological house of Virgo, a woman. The Sun passes through the house of Virgo in the 1st month of autumn, which just happens to be the first season after Summer - the start of the Sun’s decline of strength towards the end of it’s annual cycle or symbolic ‘death’. The story of Samson is the story of the Sun and it’s annual cycle. Samson —> Samsun, or Sam the Sun. In Hebrew, the very name Samson means ‘sunlight’. This is etymologically related to ‘bayth shemesh’, Hebrew for ‘house of the sun’.

Faced with the realization that Christianity can be proven to have been influenced by and created by men and other ancient religions and cultures leaves no choice but to question the validity of their faith.

Any honest, literalist Christian believes the Bible is the actual Word of God, written by men through a process ingeniously named ‘divine inspiration’…this is the case with a decisive majority of Christians on the planet today.

If you peruse the threads on this website you will see the putative connection of Christ to pagan mythology discussed over and over. Usually a skeptic happens on the data you mention in some website and thinks they feel the earth moving under their feet. They present the info here thinking that it will be new to people. The Christians among us have several debunking strategies at our disposal. You can read those arguments if you wish to by “digging into” the threads.

Rather retread that familiar ground I would suggest that the early church had two audiences to appeal to: first the Jewish and then the pagan. They preached Jesus of Nazareth as the fulfillment of the messianic hope they read in the Hebrew scriptures to the Jews. To the pagans Jesus was preached as the fulfillment of the meanings foreshadowed in their mythologies and astrology. This trend can already be seen in the New Testament Christmas stories, the book of Acts and the epistles. If the early Christian had done less they would have failed to realize the universal relevance of the message of Jesus for their time. Their success is demonstrated by the ascendance of Christianity from a local Jewish sect to the official state religion.

I was under no illusion. Any intelligent man that has any interest in theology knows about these things. Do not pretend to paint me out as someone who came across this recently and said ‘wow!’ and ran over here. As I said, I wrote that 8 years ago.

There are no ‘debunking’ methods for this. You can’t debunk truth. Any attempt to refute these truths would be, as the aphorism goes, grasping at straws.

I am interested in knowing what a literalist Christian has to say after being presented with this.

p.s. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. (Albert Einstein, 1954)

Einstein was annoyed, in his lifetime, when religious men tried to claim him as one of their own.

ouden- you just said it yourself. Any intelligent man that has any interest in theology already knows these things. That should lead you to the immediate conclusion that they aren’t the big deal you are making them out to be. I’m a literalist about the New Testament, and I already told you that the dates of Christmas and Easter are meaningless. As far as the spooky coincidence of ‘offering sacrifices for a reward’, you insist this is some pagan influence, but somehow you completely missed the fact that the JEWS were doing this for thousands of years as well. A Jewish influence on Christian theology is not nearly so troublesome for the Christian, is it?

And how is your weird story about Samson an 'explanation' for it? It's such a stretch! Samson did a lot more than entering Delilah's home, and her home has nothing to do with the thrust of the story. "His troubles began when he entered her home" is just something you stuck in there yourself to make the "Entering the House of Virgo" thing sound important, which it's not. You may just as well have said "His troubles began when he unbuttoned her tunic", and that's what you [i]would[/i] have said, if the pagans were in the habit of calling the different astrological houses 'tunics'. Nevermind that your explanation completely ignores the symbolism of his hair being the source of his power, which seems ripe for analogy. No, somehow what you see as important is the fact that one time Samson went into a woman's house. That's like...the least interesting thing that ever happened to him.   What about killing a bunch of soldiers with the jawbone of an ass? What house is the Sun passing through when it does [i]that[/i]?
Last but not least, be honest with me:  is there really a need to resort to [i]astrology[/i] to get the point of a story about a virtuous man who loses his strength when he gets caught up with a conniving woman?

Your response only deals with peripheral issues. I provided an explanation for why the NT authors and so called Church fathers viewed Jesus as the fulfillment of Hebrew prophesy and the pagan mythological themes including astrological ones. I am asserting this as historical fact. Like you said “you can’t debunk the truth.”

“I am interested in knowing what a literalist Christian has to say after being presented with this.”

What is a literalist Christian?

The first Christians didn’t have a bible to follow, they only followed what Jesus taught by his actions, is that a literalist Christian or is a bible believing person a literalist Christian?

If it’s the former I might be able to represent, if it’s the latter then I cant contribute.

But not the horoscope stuff. No one (ouden) knows about that.

What was the cause of Samson’s demise? Delilah. It’s quite simple.

Samson did many things, yes. All of them symbolizing the Sun’s journey through the annual cycle. For instance, he showed his great and terrible strength just before he met Delilah. He killed many men with the remiains of an animal jaw. This is to symbolize the Sun’s strength in Summer.
The ancient cultures thought of the Sun’s annual cycle as the life of a man. A young boy in Spring, a strong fully grown man in Summer, an older, aging man in Autumn, and an elderly man in his final years in Winter.

You say that you believe in the literalist New Testament. If you like, I can begin to explain to you the symbolisms behind the Jesus story, complete with numerological explanations.

I have added some about Jesus. I have the flu so I need to do it by small parts :slight_smile:

A literalist is one who takes the Bible’s word literally, for face value. Believes the stories written actually happened that exact way. For instance, God really did cause a flood on earth, Jesus really did, physically, walk over water. etc and etc. The majority, a great percentage, believe in this manner.

Assuming that you are correct, why would it be significant that the Samson story symbolizes the Sun?

=D> =D> =D>

I’d take a Christian like you over an atheist like ouden any day. :laughing:

Samson’s hair is symbolic to the rays of the Sun. The long locks of his hair and the strong powerful rays of the Sun in Summer. When his hair is cut, he lost his power. This is symbolic to when the Sun begins to enter Autumn and finally Winter, when the Sun’s rays are much more faint and weaker.

How can you even say that Samson meeting Delilah is the LEAST interesting thing that happened to him? That’s baffling. It is because of Delilah that Samson revealed his secret and lost his power.

The facts are there before you. Astrology was the foundation for every major part of our way of life. Greeks, Egyptians, Sumerians, Aztecs, Mayans, I can go on and on. The days of the week are named due to the planets in our solar system, with the exception of Sunday, obviously, named for the Sun, a star. We began to tell time using the Sun’s light to tell us what time it was. The word ‘hours’ comes from the egyptian god Horus. The egyptians used to say that Horus (the sky and the Sun) would walk across the sky amidst 12 steps. The egyptians would say, “horus of the 1st step” and “horus of the 2nd step” and so on… Horus walks across the sky and therefore they used sun dials to tell which step Horus was on. They believed Horus came to save them from the darkness. Consequentially, venus became known as the son of the morning star, for when Venus is seen, Horus (the sun) is not far behind (daylight).
We in modern times paid homage to this by declaring our standard of time ‘hours’. A play on the word Horus.
To deny the monolithic influence astrology had on humanity is a huge mistake.

apropria : Your comments are useless to the discussion in this thread. Be productive or get out. This isn’t your personal popularity contest. You’ve made no contribution or argument. Just applauded something that was even already explained.

Ahh, but Sampson ‘meeting Delilah’ doesn’t fit with your Astrology. So he met with some girl, and there happens to be a zodiac sign that is a girl. That’s…nothing. It only sounds vaguely interesting if you word it the way you did the first time- that he lost his power when he entered her house. Which is untrue and uninteresting.

 Also, the analogy of the Sun being like a man that is youthful and strong, passes into old age, looses it's power, and 'sets' in the winter applies to every human being who ever lived, almost. That's why the analogy exists- it applies to near-universal aspects of both human life and the Sun's activity.   How many people in the Bible are born, do a bunch of cool stuff, get old, and die?  Tons of them, and that's all you got! But ironically enough,[i] not Sampson[/i]- he died young, and his greatest feat of strength was actually at the moment of his death, when he brought down the pillars he was chained to. 
Again, if you wanted to say the Sampson story was analogous to something, and a tool to explain something, the whole "Strong man loses his power at the hands of a duplicitous woman" theme is right there, easy pickings.  But, as long as you're stuck on this- do you have any historical evidence, any midrash or other teaching that shows the ancient Jews actually ever interpreted the story in this way? For that matter, I would be curious to know about what time the zodiac symbol "virgo" was developed, and when it's likely the Jews heard about it.
  1. I don’t care about astrology personally, however, I studied it because it had an impact on all of human history. I’m not asking for a substitution here. Just an understanding of the influence and mystery that the Heavens were to our ancestors.

  2. Astrology is so old, we have no idea when it started. The earliest evidence we have is around 1,700 BCE. The Jews were most certainly influenced by Egyptian astrology.

  3. Samson meeting Delilah is a way of saying he entered her house. He entered her house physically. It was this that was the beginning of his doom, for Delilah was hired to betray Samson. Understand? The Sun enters the sign of Virgo, the woman, on the first month of AUTUMN. The first month after Summer, the first steps towards the end.

I am hoping a Christian can come here to this thread. This is quickly becoming a chore to explain.

ON the name Jesus Christ:

Again, you're targeting children and nitwits for your argument. Just like the Dec 25th thing, every Christian worth talking to about these matters knows Jesus actual name was Yeshua.  Let me say it again- We all know His real name was Yeshua.  Ergo, any good, bad, or in-between reasons for the transliteration of His name have all the importance of choosing Dec 25 to celebrate His birth i.e., no importance at all.  The only reason any of this would matter would be if you had some amazing astrological explanation for His real name, which you don't, because it was a perfectly legitimate and common name of the time. 
And yes, His last name was not Christ. I hear His middle initial wasn't "H", either. 

On Astrology in general:

I can pay 50 bucks, go down the street, and have someone do the same thing with MY life that you’re doing with Jesus. How is it surprising that an astrologer can come up with a bunch of mysterious connections about someone’s life that is already lived, and there to be analyzed? They do the same thing with U.S. Presidents.

Last but not least, Jesus being associated with the fish is not precisely about the miracle where He made the nets full of fish, but about the call to evangelism He made just after, where He called on people to be fishers of men.

I didn’t ask you how old Astrology was, I asked you how old the symbol Virgo was. That’s key to your argument, and if you haven’t any idea, then you have no choice but to abandon the argument.

Did Egyptian astrology have Virgo? Was the symbol for the relevant house that of a woman? Keep in mind that Virgo isn’t the symbol “generic female” or “some broad in space”, she’s The Virgin. You gladly enough point this out when comparing her to Mary, but you strangely fail to mention it when using it as a paralell to Delilah, who was anything but chaste.
And that’s how astrology works.