red line crossed by Syria!

Finally,another hot spot emerged, syria is alleged to have used WMD, in their use of chemical weapons, that this administration claimed will be the red line which crossed which will signal retaliation.

It seems that this time action will be warranted, based on intelligent assessments of the US, britain, and France. Does anyone think that this so called red line, should further be conceded, as rather an arbitrary point of no return, or indeed, this time, it should be handled with a more direct, positive response.

Note: both responses may further peace, or either could blow up into more violence and escalation.

If you were involved in decision making, how would you approach this?

The concept of peace really doesn’t have a place in Syria at this point… either way there is fighting, and a pacifistic indifference is assent to further mayhem.

However, given NEITHER SIDE in Syria can lay claim to being a potentially stable national entity if full control was given to them, Assad’s Regiem supporting Iranian attacks on Israel and Lebanon, the Sunni Insurgency backed by some nasty terror groups themselves… we’re left with just who to back.

Obama’s reach to the United Nations makes a little sense, but only very little… as the UN is utterly uneauipped to tackle this on, within our generation, given legal and diplomatic wranglings, and a need for a improbable consensus. It’s more useful as a political subterfuge to see who will openly back a potential Syria, and using that open support for building a international coalition.

Right now, a mixed NATO-Arab Union push out of Turkey in the North, setting a phased series of defensive zones for humanitarian reasons and to decrease rebel factions logistical strain makes the most sense, and the Arab Union snatch via Jordan the largely uncontested desert lands that contain vital communication roads for Assad also makes sense- The US air support backed by Turkish Armor could aid this second phase if the Arab Union hits heavy resistance from Assad from the south-west, and they can always retreat north if they get their rear (southern border of Jordan) cut off.

A complete and systemmatic destruction of remaining airfields is a necessity, turn those airfields into mud, flames, and craters. Knock out thief reserve fuel capacity. Heavy Turkish Armor needs to randomly blast through roadblocks between the major cities in the west, taking out hard targets with Assist of American Air Support and NATO wide Special Forces lending infantry support to the Armor.

Large NATO/Arab Union FOBs need to be established in every city taken by the coalition for logistic and training support, as well as housing the new government in safety, hospital staff, etc.

In Syrias case, both sides are fucked up ideologically on a humanitarian scale, a strong NATO/Arab Union force, predominately lead by Nations like Turkey, Kuwait, Qatar… is needed for at least 20 years, to train the Syrian army in Western tactics and standards. It can be done, but it takes a long time- the Egyptian Military took heavily its Ethos from the US after its examination as to why it kept losing to Israel… when the Arab Spring came, they did the exact opposite of what the Syrian Army did. It takes a long time to build this sort of responsibility, it takes a deep understanding of the tactics underlining weaponry in relationship to the use of force, juxtapositioned against strategic considerations for best positive outcomes. NATOs tactical synthesis from the infantryman up encourages the military to back the civilian population, and not to be against it. This is going to be a massive burden to any international training force having to explain to pious suicide-bombing cultural militants the best way to serve Allah isn’t joining a Martyrs Brigade and strapping a bomb to yourself and charging headlong into a funeral procession of the infidels or heretics, but in taking up defensive positions and shooting the martyr wannabes shooting them prior to them blowing up. This requires a generational culture shift, breaking away from traditions the backed terrorism, like the Marxist in Mexico or Sri Lanka, or philosophically legitimizing it, such as Foucault, to something more endearing to a stable society that doesn’t blow babies in the market up.

Without this bases, the ‘red line’ excuse upfor muddling in Syria is bullshit, and is smantically a joke when the death toll and destruction related to Syria is juxtapositioned against how many actually died in these random and few chemical attacks.

Just like in Iraq, NOTE TO OP, WMD is a convienant excuse to the morally impressionable who lack a I depth strategic or tactical understanding of circumstances. Iraq having WMDs wasn’t a pressing concern, Iraq existing as a training ground to Anti-American terrorists post 9/11 with Saddam claiming sovereignty and playing diplomatic tricks, being able to ‘loose’ unaccounted for WMDs was the concern. Prior to 9-11, a person with Saddam’s mentality and history to the US could exist via Orthodox interstate statecraft, but sure the hell not after. WMDs were at best a pretext to dot the last Ts and Is to the logical calculus of war.

Question is, does Assad, with the obvious similarities Ideologically and Brhaviorally to Saddam, match up enough to warrant a invasion? Is Obama’s red line excuse enough in and if itself, on its own merits, for war? No to the latter… it’s a shit poor reason given how little and rare these chem attacks have been. But on the first? Well… what realistically will be the Ends our Means hope to achieve?

Merely invading because Obama claims a red line is a absurd act, and is immoral… However, using it as a means to gain support for going in and holding Syria until it stabilizes, on on a Libyan Model or bombing and leaving the place via Neglect but long term Allied Occupation like Italy and Germany after WW2 is good.

People will claim imperialism and colonialism… so be it, so long as the majority of ground troops are NATO and Arab Union, it shouldn’t matter much to the Muslim Population, and the Christian population should be chill given the other NATO nations randomly participating.

Another advantage to this would be the demilitarization of Syria, and a eventual probably return of the Golan Heights if Israel recognizes it has a responsible and stable neighbor unlikely to embrace terror tactics against it, using the heights to rain hell on Jewish cities. Don’t expect this during the first decade of ‘stability’.

We also have to consider what’s left of Syrias Airforce and Helicopter Forces likely are not Syrian, but Russian Pilots. This will likely come as a shocker to most, but Russia has a history of supplying pilots secretly to puppet states. Our Naval capacity isn’t going to be much interfered with by them, but we can’t cockblocked them landing equipment in Syria without Europe having its gas shut off, we’ll have to wait like, a solid five minutes after the Russians leave to blow their shipments up once its handed off to Assad’s forces. Our gunships should be able to support forces making contact with coastal areas with intel and fire support, as well as supplies, easily, even with full scale Russian resistance.

Declaring war on WMDs alone to prove a political point on Bush isn’t Ethical, nor the WMD excuse enough in and of itself, given our neglect in regards to the overall scale of the carnage the last two years. None the less, it is appropriate to use this as a primary excuse, however illogical or impossible it is under philosophical analysis in and of itself, if we intend and have a realistic capacity to end war in this region for generations and provide a decent chance for the opposition to become less like terrorist and more like us ethically and militarily. Merely backing a opposition just as bad as Assad and then wandering off with no long term responsibility in putting Syria back together is a worst EVIL than letting the WMDs continue to drop. In a senseless war, men have the capacity to come to their senses, but not if all means to redirection and revaluation is stripped from them. Putting one set of cruel tyrants incharge of Syria over another blocks this natural progress, and only encourages the opposition to go underground and intensify, not learning the lessons of the previous war, given its premature and unwarranted end. Wars are a terrible and sickening enterprise, but once engadged, for however ideally or absurdly, they must be fought to cartharsis by each side involved for it to truely end, so all sides to finally move on. This is a aspect forgotten in modern war but is present in primitive warfare. It’s why our cycle of wars continue to escalate and never end. It’s better at times to loose a war with meaning that for a foreign entity to come in out of the blue, saving you, leaving flopping on the shores of interstate political reality like a fish out of water, not knowing how to breath. Syria will have to be brought into the NATO-Arab Union Fold, and not exist in a awkward Russian Void not knowing where to turn, as a unequal equal to other more balanced nations.

Let them fight their own civil war.

I think KrisWest made a good point in another thread, what makes these chemical weaopons the breaking point, vs all the bullets and high explosives that were already being used in the war?

What if the FSA uses Chemical weapons against the minority Groups that are unilaterally supporting the Assad regime because they fear being slaughtered by the FSA?

Are we going to intervene on the side of Assad and his supporters then?

I need to caution the logic of the Anti-Iraq War Liberals from further acting out their ass backwards War Calculus in this war in reminding them as to the Stunt they pulled in Liberia during the Iraq War… They built up ALOT of twisted and unfounded logic in trying to disengage Bush from the Iraq war by saying ‘There Is No More Reason To War in Iraq Than Say, Liberia’, a former African colony established in the 1830s by the US for free American Slaves who wanted out of the US to return to.

After months of bitching and moaning, the Anti-War Movement archived… A Invasion of Yet Another Country. Our Marines landed in the streets completely unprepared for Tropical African conditions, and damn near every Marine instantly contracted Malaria, resulting in the bewilderment of the Naval Command who snatched those guys back up out of the ship and got out of dodge.

We only have three results from this fiasco- a incredible force of stupid exists in the Anti-War movement that actually managed to create a invasion from the vapors of its own misguided Hubris… that’s right, pacifists instigated a war, secondly this precedent hasn’t been checked, meaning this absurdity will likely reemerge in Syria in a even sicker form, perhaps even from within Obama’s political staff (not impossible to imagine the people who bullied Bush into Libya are in a few cases now working for Obama), and thirdly… The Philosophical Profession hasn’t picked up yet on this absurd, backwards, counter-intuitive anomaly.

In statecraft, if your sole objective is winning, everyone looses if you achieve that absurd victory, including yourself. A more balanced, honest, soul searching approach needs to be achieved. We didn’t see this in the anti-war opposition post 9/11, it was inane, pointless mayhem. It caused immature pullouts and lack security in Iraq and now Afganistan.

We need to be self interested in the use of force, using it in expedient and obvious positions… but not make a practice of first resort to it. Nor should we seek to exhaust abstract and pointless alternatives in the face of excessive and creul warfare upon others with us standing in the sidelines playing bewildered and innocent.

Once war is engadged, the selfish reasons aside, we need to take a Cosmopolitan Outlook, as if the people warring with one another or with us was a future precious friend or ally, a brother of sorts. What would THEY want to see in their history books? Another selfish invader bringing needless destruction, or someone who’s every movement sways their hearts, in which every yard of ground taken by our forces was a yard taken from the old disgusting world and given to a world rational and just, that they recognize as their own. Our wars, however unfortunate, should correspond with a obvious and great necessity to THEIR later generations.

That’s not possibly with the immature pullout in Iraq… partially perhaps, but not in full- they are still being bombed. Syria is very important long term for the stability of NATO (someday perhaps a future member) and balancing emotions between the Arab World and Europe. You play it right here, we won’t have in two hundred years naval buildup a between North Africa and Europe reinacting the Punic Wars, you’ll have a peaceful and largely unified Med. Sea, who’s nations back one another, citizens travel freely without fear back and forth, without real military threat without.

You fuck this one up, we loose all chance of balancing this region out, opening its interests towards the Sea, it will look back into the sands, to Jihad, to radicalism as weapon technology and access by other nations to martial equality increases.

In other words, don’t fuck this one up too. Don’t turn this into another Circus like Iraq. Drop the WMDs and logic of the Iraq war, and go into this like adults. If your against it, be rational and clear headed- no Occupy Wallstreet Antics. If your for it, do it right. Expect at least 20 years joint occupation. Know terrorists on both sides will continue to bomb, and as long as we’re living on planet earth, we gotta commit to it once started, as there is no where we can hide from in terms of terrorist repercussions.

If you can accept this, invade. If not, quit getting excited about Red Lines, or vindicating rotten war mentalities. Don’t war, but if you insist, do it right. Don’t half ass it.

All or Nothing, makes sense.

Israel invaded syrian airspace and bombed research facilities and depots containing military hardware bound to Iran for receipt by the Heptzbolla. This alarming escalation by involvement, gears up an already heated area, with indeterminate consequences. A showdown is appearant on the horizon of fading political resolutions, and offers nothing but the picture of much more trouble ahead. The worst case scenario is a tripartite involvement of Syria, Israel and Iran. The good possible news, is the development of a covert war , de escalating both rhetoric and over the top calls for action by principal powers. Any alternate views?

There is no pacifistic outlook possible, as a hands off approach via any interested party still implies total war over every yard or urbanized Syrian Soil, and the Indonesian 9 Party plan is sadly the only thing out there that even hints at a sober political end to this.

Syria is fucked, but given Lebanon and Iran, its war captains will survive, just like with the Libyans, to form the backbone of highly skilled intellectuals capable of tackling the NATO tactical synthesis. Every damn war they fight in and survive are more counter techniques they explore and document.

We’re now juggling this treat of a restless population of Ronins running about with dreams of a caliphate, who can cause us serious damage over the next two generations.

If we don’t do anything, well be utterly resented by whatever government eventually emerges in Syria.

It’s not logical that a Somalia can emerge here for very long, best case scenario for Assad at this point is overwhelming Lebanon politically and Ruling Syria West via some heavy fortification efforts, with the Sunni following suit after a population exchange- or the Sunni eventually monkey stomping them after the end of a very long, grewsome war, with the inevitable low key genocide involved.

I can’t blame Israel one bit for taking these targets out in advance either. The don’t want the new Syria to have Assad’s toys, don’t want Hezbollah either… you can buy off Assad, but not the Sunni radicals.

I don’t know of a authority respected enough to pull off a peace deal voluntarily, and involuntarily, lets not go there…

I am completely for Cezar enlisting in this mess however. Have at it dude, you issued your chance to die in Libya, perhaps you can go due in Syria. You should last about a week tops.

Has anyone considered Lebanon long term? It’s already a joke of a state… it’s going to be a hotbed like Pakistan for the who’s-who’s of Shia oriented terrorism. Probably will see ground military incursions over the years there to get rid of stuff, not just air assets. Pretty much the whole border around Israel is turning into a no-mans land.

ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 … 36,00.html

Here are some views on the Israeli sterilization efforts, I wouldn’t call it friendly just yet to the Syrian Rebels, as the only real target I would care about being destroyed is the 4th’s HQ, but its not enough to discern Israel’s overall pattern. Now, if these headquarters keep getting blown up, yeah… but Isreali doctrine dictates wiping out any and all enemy air power… guess Assad has so little they felt confident enough to make a exception.

Don’t say I didn’t bring it up.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/%20…%209Z20130505


(Reuters) - U.N. human rights investigators have gathered testimony from casualties of Syria’s civil war and medical staff indicating that rebel forces have used the nerve agent sarin, one of the lead investigators said on Sunday.

The United Nations independent commission of inquiry on Syria has not yet seen evidence of government forces having used chemical weapons, which are banned under international law, said commission member Carla Del Ponte.

“Our investigators have been in neighboring countries interviewing victims, doctors and field hospitals and, according to their report of last week which I have seen, there are strong, concrete suspicions but not yet incontrovertible proof of the use of sarin gas, from the way the victims were treated,” Del Ponte said in an interview with Swiss-Italian television.

“This was use on the part of the opposition, the rebels, not by the government authorities,” she added, speaking in Italian.

Del Ponte, a former Swiss attorney-general who also served as prosecutor of the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, gave no details as to when or where sarin may have been used.

The Geneva-based inquiry into war crimes and other human rights violations is separate from an investigation of the alleged use of chemical weapons in Syria instigated by U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, which has since stalled.

President Bashar al-Assad’s government and the rebels accuse each another of carrying out three chemical weapon attacks, one near Aleppo and another near Damascus, both in March, and another in Homs in December.

The civil war began with anti-government protests in March 2011. The conflict has now claimed an estimated 70,000 lives and forced 1.2 million Syrian refugees to flee.

The United States has said it has “varying degrees of confidence” that sarin has been used by Syria’s government on its people.

President Barack Obama last year declared that the use or deployment of chemical weapons by Assad would cross a “red line”.


Could very well be… Sarin Gas is one of the few WMDs you can make at home… but it’s highly sophisticated… I’m guessing Syria lost a old stockpile. Then again, anyone with a chemistry background and Internet access could make it.

Just more reason not to trust either side.

It’s getting to damn pessimistic on my end here, gotta reset and rethink this… it’s not good that I’m not seeing other alternatives here. We really could use some to start floating around out there.

Please go to:

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2013/05/2013523155639566436.html

All this to pay back Israel’s knocking out a Syrian “research” facility? The wind blows in which direction in Syria? :evilfun:

 It's interesting to follow how this country haas given up a credible foreign policy,and the red-line has probably become a laughing stock,as far as the US's caricature is concerned.  More than likely, the hawks have also caved in for reasons one can only guess at.

 One theory is that the middle east is just too explosive, and that these regional tensions can be contained.  But what does it do to the free worlds credibility?   It would be different if Reagan and Thatcher were still around. I wonder if containment will work except as a band aid like reclusiveness by the US administration, by a timid, lame duck president?

Obama’s “Red Line”… So did he say, specifically, what he or the international community would do if this line was crossed? No. Just that there would be a response.
“Weapons of Mass Destruction” a useful term in political propaganda to stir the emotions of the uninformed. All weapons can cause mass destruction and casualty. Atomic, Biological and Chemical weapons a.k.a. “Non-Conventional” weapons, cause and effect, same - death.
The Assad regime or the rebels, The free opposition or the Jihadists. There are no preferable alternatives (for The West) to who’s in power in Syria, maybe this is why Obama and the international community are not doing anything about the Syrian Appocalypse right now.
I see Israel shooting back at rebel forces who ‘accidentaly’ fire upon Israeli forces. And bombing Assad’s weapons convoys or factories. Maybe it’s a bit like whittling away at each of the legs of a wobbly table. Until the table crumbles or is of a height that is no longer of any use (threat).
By the way, I am in this region at the moment. Civilian air traffic ha been re-routed away from certain areas and there is an increased amount of military air power, more noticeable after dark.

Interesting, PP–since you’re in the area, what do the ‘locals’ think about what Syria is doing–Or what anyone is doing, for that matter? It’s seemed to me that the Muslim sects are hell-bent on killing each other no matter what. We’re involved, not only because our ties to Israel go back to pre-1949, but also because of the mid-East crude which makes the area a necessarily ‘strategic area’ for the US.

I’d be interested in knowing what the average man in the street thinks. Thanks. :slight_smile:

Reuters reported that president obama finally officially declared that Syria has crossed the red line, by an official disclosure that chemical weapons were used. Although it is not yet clear what military action is considered, but it has been determined that weapons shipments to the rebels will commence. How this scenario will play out, is yet to be seen, however a possible escalation is foreseeable.
The hawks including Senator McCain, have finally found a voice in the foreign policy in this administration. Any comments to this latest development, and what is foreseeable as a possible outcome? Will Assad fall? Will Assad’ s friends, iran, and russia be supportive of Syria? Will assad have an exit strategy?

Well things are heating up again, although belatedly, the backbone has to assert itself, finally, but at what a cost? The future will reveal it.

Hopefully it,s not another outgrowth of the death wish. But it certainly appears to be a catch 22.

Anyone getting involved is a sort of financial suicide. It costs a lot of cash to stick your foot in the door of a civil war.
I’m pretty sure the USA is going to get involved, but that is because their system is run by insane tards.
Using a chemical weapon instead of artillery or rifles is not that much different.
Kriswest already explained that.

Israel has been trying to get the USA to go destroy each of its neighbors for years, starting with Egypt in the 60’s and using false flags to do it (having been caught many times). The latest was Syria.

So to get the USA to go over and destroy a Middle East country, all I have to do is sneak over into that country, set off a WMD and scamper away. While sitting back at my desk, I then point at the country and scream – WEAPONS of MASS DESTRUCTION!! Look - Look!!!

And just in case the UN people can’t find sufficient evidence, when they show up, I can easily hire anyone to shoot at them from the shadows. It’s an active civil war for Christ’s sake.

The mandate given to the UN (after they had refused to accept an invitation from the Syrian government to come and investigate) was to go verify ONLY that a chemical weapon had been set off. They were told to NOT make any attempt to verify WHO set it off.

When they showed up, a single sniper fire (in the midst of a civil war) was declared sufficient excuse for the USA to go to war with Syria.

All it took was someone saying, “there is this red line that will initiate war”. Once that line is drawn, it is trivial to make it look like someone crossed it.

Anything to destroy another neighbor. And its free.

Latest theory on Syrian conflict:: it is the Federal reserve, owned by an international cartel, which is behind the effort to take out Syria and Iran because the attempt by these countries to convert purchase of oil by petrodollars to other currencies. The claim is, that this would destroy the dollar, as the premier currency, and tank the current world economy.