Religion and philosophy ... words in a vacuum?

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
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Should you decide to read this OP please do not interpret it as an inflammatory commentary on philosophy or religion.

The other day I learned about James Joyce’s notion of “Stream of Consciousness” … maybe this post is an example … than again … maybe not.

Perhaps a generally accepted … at least one of many … purpose(s) of religion and philosophy is to understand human life and our physical reality … and subsequently propagate same.

One might argue that the ebb and flow of humanity across a broad horizon of space and time has been influenced by both philosophy and religion.

One might also argue that the ebb and flow of humanity across this same broad horizon of space and time has evolved despite … in spite of … volumes of ever changing philosophy and religion.

Let’s assume some intellectual genius finally gets it right … completely right. This same individual is now ready to deliver his “right thinking” to humanity.

Many years ago in Santiago Compostella I had dinner with a group of young and remarkably knowledgeable individuals … some young men and some young women. Two comments heard in this conversation have stuck with me:

  1. A young man stated something to the effect … perhaps Jesus was the first person to have a conscious recollection of where he came from. I didn’t like his comment at the time … seem to be warming up to it more these days.

  2. A young woman stated something to the effect … an individual or some group of individuals attempting to redirect humanity is like placing a stick in the middle of a river … a river with a current. The stick will obviously have no impact on the direction the river flows.

The latter seems to express my thoughts concerning the likelihood of success in the statement I wrote earlier … “Let’s assume some intellectual genius finally gets it right … completely right. This same individual is now ready to deliver his “right thinking” to humanity”.

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If you believe the NT, the wisdom of the world is foolishness to God. No master of intellect is going to tell us what it is like to experience god. Such wisdom is found among the poor in spirit and the pure in heart.

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I have often contemplated the intention(s) of the words “poor in spirit” in the first Beatitude. My only recurring sentiment is ‘humility’.

Anyone have any thoughts you want to share.

[b][i]THE EIGHT BEATITUDES OF JESUS

"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they who mourn,
for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek,
for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they shall be satisfied.

Blessed are the merciful,
for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the pure of heart,
for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they shall be called children of God.

Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."[/i][/b]

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The first beatitude raises questions. Jesus spoke as one who has authority and was not humble before his Pharisee detractors or the buyers and sellers in the temple. Described as meek and mild, he was not often portrayed as such.
The first sin among sins listed in the Catholic description of the Seven Deadly Sins is pride–from which all other sins become possible. Was Jesus proud?

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Man couldnt get to the point of comprehending the ethos of christian doctrine without first having a real understanding of mortality. They go hand in hand, here’s how. The reigning moral feeling that comes out of the deepest reflection on life is always gonna be the feeling of compassion- Schopenhauer was partly correct in this- because of the awareness of the true absurdity of existence. Put another way, it is difficult to stay angry at anything and anyone when you are aware that everything is absurd, utimately. The collective human awareness of this is what is at the foundation of the religious ethos and the virtues that correspond with proper action.

Everybody suffers pointlessly, even two worst enemies have this in common… Nietzsche puts this metaphor quite nicely: a good mountain climbing will turn a villian and a saint into two rather equal people. Exhaustion is the fastest way to fraternity.

That…the exhaustion…is what is at the heart of that existential awareness of meaninglessness. Soooo, once human beings become aware of this unfortunate fact, this meaninglessness, the feeling of despair becomes hyperinflated and turns into a selfless sympathy for everything that dies. Christianity is then as feuerbach should have described it. The universal abstraction of suffering man into a system of morals that honors that suffering… eventually to the point of glorifying it and making it virtuous.

Christianity simply can’t work without all these things being in order. It does not just spring out of the intellect of a founder of religion. It’s inner workings are already turning in the heart and mind of the thinker who has become aware of mortality and meaninglessness.

The poisoning affect N talked about when all the other instincts fall into the shadow of that Christian abyss of feeling.

Only a terribly sad person would lie to himself like that. Sure, there’s some ecstasy in fear and trembling and K was right to say surrendering to the absurd can be a wonderful feeling. But seriously. Pagan liars are a much stronger people. Christianity is so gloomy. Who thinks that that anymore? Not me. Like imagine a comedy skit where a child is being introduced to christianity. Okay timmy, here’s the deal. YOU are in a world of shit, son. One of your grandfathers was an asshole and you’re being punished for it by a god that won’t reveal himself to you, but expects you to believe he exists. Furthermore, if you piss this god off that you don’t know exists, things go from bad to worse very quickly. Okay, here are two important rules of thumb. First, you are not a super cool person who is better than anyone else. If you have something, and somebody wants it, give it to them, don’t ask questions.

If you succeed, somebody else should be thanked. When you fail, its your own fault. This goes for God too. Something goes good, thank god. Something goes bad, blame yourself.

Systematically misunderstand your experiences by attributing supernatural causes to what happens. When you hear a certain song, its a message from god… not just a coincidence. If you fall out of a thirty story window and survive, its a miracle. Likewise, if you fall off the first step of your front porch and die, its physics.

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What is the cure for the disease in Man of repeatedly figuring out the futility of life?
Faith in what could be yet isn’t yet?

“No Man can look upon the face of God and live.”
“be as the lilies of the field”

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That’s what I’m taking about. Let’s look at the metaphor and well see the Christian transposition of schemeta through the symbolism drawn from the metaphor.

Lilies don’t do anything but sway back and forth in the wind. They are passive instruments. Christianity’s ascetic virtualization of resignation is expressed as the passive nature of the any which way the wind blows attitude of lily.

What is peace, fundamentally and at its logical extreme? Pure motionlessness and absence of activity, since only as such can there be an absence of conflict.

Resignation, passivity, motionlessness, no activity, no-thing, all symbols deeply centered in the platonic ontologies that structure them.

To be a Lilly is silly. Everything about that metaphor deprives man of his greatest attributes. His movement and freedom, his control, his ability to resist the force of the wind.

If you had to be some kind of vegetation in a parable or proverb, you always choose a tree, anyway.

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Good question Ierrellus …

I read the following words a few years ago … they are attributed to Lao Tzu but who knows eh! Perhaps the identity of the author is not so important. The question might be … does the message in the words ring true to you … different people will obviously have different ‘gut reactions’ to these few words.

Whether you are a gem in the royal court
or a stone in the common path
If you accept your part with humility
the power of the universe will be yours

The words suggest humility is possible for individuals who occupy the higher(perhaps even highest) positions in their respective tribe, clan, village, city … and so on.

For example … were any of the Emperors of China humble individuals? If so … how did they exhibit their humility? I know frightfully little about the history of ancient China yet much of what I read suggests the ancient ancient emperors were humble. During this time succession was not determined by blood lines … rather meritocracy … apparently.

In any event … it seems to me if a leader holds the general welfare and safety of the people under his charge as his/her highest priority … one could argue that he is humble … being submissive to the needs of his people.

I see Jesus as a humble leader/teacher.

Another word that cropped up occasionally with my contemplation of the words “poor in spirit” was the word “surrender”.

Was it Dostoevsky who said something to the effect … people need to bow down(kowtow) to something/someone?

We see a lot of “hierarchy of authority” (the pyramid) in the animal kingdom … we see lots in human social units … from the smallest to the largest … we project the same into the spirit world … for example … angels and archangels … cherubim and seraphim.

Do you see surrender as one of the characteristics of “poor in spirit”?

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All legitimate criticisms … one might argue the scope of your criticisms but the legitimacy is self evident.

The uniqueness of human DNA at least hints at the absurdity of “painting all with the same brush”

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An acquaintance once told me it’s better to plant three trees together … he suggested in this way they will grow faster and bigger … based on the assumption they will compete for sunlight … don’t know if his claim is valid.

Yet it seems to me there are lots of examples in nature where plants trees and so on compete for sunlight.

If this is true … plants are not so passive … I don’t know … can’t recollect a reincarnation as a plant :slight_smile:

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I second that emotion!!

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Jesus as human had to accept His being chosen to die for others. His last prayer was that His cup (sacrifice) be lifted. He accepted by stating “Nevertheless, Thy will be done.” On the cross he cried, “My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me!” These examples are all too human. Jesus had to accept His destiny; and we have to accept ours. This is not a passive surrender to fate; it’s instead surrender to the will of God, which may or may not align with our human, personal wills. So the problem becomes how can we know God’s will? Saints and seers have told us what God’s will entails.
It appears that there is a consensus of opinion among many that we are all in a sinking boat and need to care about each other. Destruction of fragile ecosystems on our planet put us in the precarious position of having to care for what is other or die. It will doubtlessly take tragedies of large proportions to get the average person to give a damn about anything other than what fulfills personal appetites.
So what is it that we must accept–surrender to?

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Good stuff again Ierrellus.

I get the feeling our thought paths are diverging … maybe :slight_smile:

I’m trying to focus my thoughts on how to interpret the words “poor in spirit”. The interpretation shouldn’t be too constrictive yet perhaps a few adjectives/nouns could serve as “indicators” … point to a valid interpretation.

humility … selflessness … surrender … ???

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Im not sure how unique it is. I mean when we see a horse, we see a horse. We see what the horse sees in other horses. When a cat sees a human, the human sees a cat. The consciousness is basically the same. All mammals tend to have the same kind of consciousness, its insects that have bizzarre consciousness.

Humans are basically a mix of dog minds, cat minds (asians and felons…ie. felines), sloth minds, cow minds, snake minds, spider minds (fishing), monkey minds (novelty seeking) all combined into one mind. Humans are mongrelity itself.

That being said, the human aryan female form is the ultimate species form, it is evolution and smoothed. All species enjoy this form, for example a horse will cum inside an aryan females throat because all sentient species apprecaite this form. Even aliens will come (cum) down, abduct an aryan female, because they all recognize this form. Hell, even 25,000 years in the future, Samus Aryan, lives with an alien species, is a fuckin’ aryan female. And guess what, Metroid Prime (an alien parasite, the most evolved of it’s kind)…Resembles an aryan female, even before he mimicks her DNA! The other parasite, SA-X, chooses her form as his prime avatar as well.

It is basically, the net result of goodness. Its a smooth, intelligient form, without all the armor of war, as well as idealized third eye placement and jawline. On the other hand, the penis lacks the refined features of evolution, it even differs in style between mamallian species. The penis is the hard instrument that just grew, it is raw, its like the cheap thing the super weapon they used and rushed in war, without bothering to refine the exterior design, just used the raw invention without bothering for refinement.

Now, as for threads like these, I dont really enjoy the energy that much anymore. It is kind of sage like, but these days it just triggers my nihilism, you know? Just seems like chewin’ the fat.

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Ierrellus and other ILP members following this thread.

Perhaps it would help if I backed up a bit and try to set the stage … IOW what is the purpose of attaching pointers/indicators to the expression “poor in spirit”.

Sanjay posted in the adages and proverbs thread … Names are the guests of reality - Taoist Sage Zhuangzi

In various OP’s I introduced the Confucian Doctrine … "Rectification of Names"

Here the word “Name” is intended in the broadest possible context … for example the word Name could refer to a person, place, object, feeling. school of philosophy and so on.

When we name ‘something’ we give this ‘something’ specific attributes, characteristics, outer boundaries and so on. For example, the word chair … four legs, a platform to sit your butt on, a support for your back … not a stool.

The Confucian Doctrine “Rectification of Names” states something to the effect … if any given “Name” is not understood/interpreted in the same way by people using the “Name” … no effective/efficient communication can take place.

The expression “poor in spirit” is naming ‘something’ … what is this ‘something’? … do all people understand/interpret this ‘something’ in the same way. I don’t think so.

I would like to add another “indicator” “pointer” to the list … humility… selflessness … surrender … open minded

I really like surreptitious57’s tag line or whatever you call it … " A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN"

How can we hear the faint whispers of God if our mind is not open?

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I’d say that one who is poor in spirit is not easily riled, but accepts the “slings and arrows of outrageous fortune” as this is what’s here.

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If you are poor in spirit, you just “know” it. Its just something that the definition comes easy to you.

Its kind of like a quiet depression, viewing the folly of worldly things, mixed with a bit of Enlightenment, and acceptance of one’s fate and suffering, with a tad touch of Nihilism, but only sprinkled to taste.

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Like, most British guys are poor in spirit, kind of calm and tired sounding. For example, the guy from Clockwork Orange, Ringo Star, Monty Python, etc. are poor in spirit. John Cleese is NOT poor in spirit.

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Eureka! … maybe … than again maybe not :slight_smile:

Poor in spirit is not a human attribute … like slender, plump, attractive, ugly and so on … rather it is a destination … it is the embodiment of virtue … in a word “perfection” … the realization of true human nature.

Saints and heroes are only prototypes or apparitions of human perfection … the real thing can only be achieved when the entire species arrives at the destination.

Progress is slow and painful as long as the prototypes live in a vacuum … in a monastery … in a hermitage … in a group think community and so on.

People in the vanguard must be prepared to mingle with the crowd … absorb the ‘shit’ emanating from the crowd … versus … argue against it … or attempt to “lead” some of the crowd away from it (the ‘shit’).

Yin Yang in perfect harmony.

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Mingle with the crowd and absorb “shit”.

How?

St Francis of Assisi provides some suggestions:

[b][i]Lord, make me an instrument of your peace,
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
where there is sadness, joy;

O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood as to understand;
to be loved as to love.

For it is in giving that we receive;
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.[/i][/b]