Given the vast riches and estates of some of the world’s churches is there not a certain degree of hypocrasy in the teachings of these religions?
I’m thinking most directly of the Christian messages of Jesus, i.e. shunning material wealth, helping those less fortunate, charity, although I’m sure most other religions have similar messages.
Does it not stick in the throat a little knowing that much of the world’s suffering could be aided with the wealth of these organisations?
Aren’t they helping out?
The dilemma any savior will find is that after they save, they are no longer needed.
There’s a lot of things that stick in the throat. That’s not one of the top ones for me. In fact it’s almost at the bottom. Who knows why? We’re all different.
The idea of religion making a positive difference is novel to me…
bill gates is holier than the pope as far as I’m concerned
Yes.
And here, you would have to analyze a specific group and figure out what they are doing with their money in regards to aid, and what they are doing with it in regards to use in the Church for it’s own use.
If the money goes to expansion, and that expansion allows for further outreach and aid, then it shouldn’t be that big of a throat sticker.
If, however, aid isn’t really proportionate to expansion or income, then where the money is going otherwise is of interest and concern for justification and acceptance.
That’s the general approach to such considerations.
It is also why some religions don’t pay themselves; for instance, the Mormons don’t pay anyone for their religious services; not even their president.
All money’s go into expansion, renovation, and massive warehouses for aid relief, and near government programs for aid relief.
It’s one of their highlights.
Other religions simply shun all money and ask for aid from the local surrounding peoples when they need to help others or build anything; this is common in less Western and wealthy areas.
So…it depends.
Where is the money going, and why.
However, that being said…most people are selfish to be honest; and I do not mean that in a negative slander.
I mean it in a simple matter-of-fact.
Most people think of sacrifice that they are commissioned to do for spiritual growth.
They sacrifice their money in some fashion to their religion, and they are done with their concern over money.
The thought of where that money is going and for what purposes is nearly never thought of or of interest.
It’s purpose for most is to lose it.
The lack of religions in the modern times burning money that has been offered should tell us something.
Personally, I am very harsh on this subject, and I tend to steer clear of bringing it up to religious leaders and the devout contributors.
For me, I cannot walk into lavish religious constructs; it is best I stay away from them.
If I go into such constructs, my immediate impulse is to tear it apart and pass the pieces to those I see in need; especially religions with a God or gods.
God and gods have no use for these material adornments and raising them in their honor is no different than piling dead bodies up in praise of them in my mind.
It is, to me, a pile of waist.
I suppose through the centuries following Christ’s death from early on, the model for Temples and Churchs may have been taken from the Old Testament. The descriptions of the ones there quite possibly had an influence in design and decoration. From the standpoint concerning God’s Divinity since the edifice is to house God’s Essence. They are supposed to representative of God’s Greatness in my estimation. Now I must say churchs in lower income areas differ from higher income ones. Basically they supposed to welcome anyone from any walk of life. As to that being totally true for the higher income ones, I couldn’t say. In regards as to how God would view this, I couldn’t say either.
Our church for instance supports itself from offerings and tithings collected during services. Those monies are used for missionaries, upkeep of the building (insurances, utilities etc.), pay for the pastor and other various organizations like Angel Tree etc. The salary supplied for the pastor might support a single person in an efficiency apartment with basic amenities and food. It is understood by people taking on that position that they would have to have a steady job for support of their family and lifestyle. The money accepted by them would not be the attraction for pastoring the church.
As for other churchs who may collect larger amounts of offerings for their accouterments, those details should also set down by the Church’s constitution. The pastors there may work on percentages or set salaries as in the case of ours. Each church works differently accordingly to their own infrastructure. Since a church is it’s own entity, it is responsible for itself.
Some of the missionaries our church supports still have rudimentary floors and walls, but it is my understanding the congregation are truly grateful for what they do have. Without that, they would not even have a church to worship in. If I am accepted into a bamboo hut or one of Florentine gilding, it is to worship God, not a concern of the building itself.
Very good, but answer this…could you build a church of Florentine gilding knowing that God would have no use for such material, and yet that someone (probably not even that far away) could use that material to help pay for some basic sources?
Or I suppose, let me ask you it this way, could you imagine walking Jesus through a church that you built with your hands, made of Florentine gilding and fine marble, and expect Jesus’ reactions, based on what is in the Bible, to be one that is impressed?
Would Jesus stand proud of “your” (pretending you have made such a Florentine/marble place) church while behind his back, outside, a homeless women walks by starving?
If were to build such a church, it would not be to impress God, but to magify His Glory. My ego would have no place in the construction in such a building. There’s nothing I could ever do that would impress God. Doing something of that nature should be done with a humbled heart. It would not be done to deprive anyone of their well being of life.
God doesn’t require opulence for people to give Him praise. Where ever two or more people gather in His name, there shall he be also.
And at the same time watch the impoverished suffer while your structure makes the Glory of God larger by being made out of precious material.
If such buildings make God’s renown greater by holding onto material that could otherwise help the impoverished, then such the renown is that this God stands apart from suffering for it’s own boasting.
I will praise the welfare system by, for it, creating a large structure layered with gold, limestone, and marble of the highest quality for the welfare system is the greatest and should be praised for it’s willingness to help those in need.
If we’re going to keep things in context here, you should have included my last three sentences of my previous post:
True, but how can one build such a structure, and not deprive “anyone” of a chance for better well being?
Building such a structure would not be done on a selfish level, rather giving people a place to Glorify God. Those who truly follow God’s admonishments will receive the things they need to live life. Though we may from time to time suffer life’s ravages, God will not desert us spiritually. If we treat each other as brothers and sisters following Jesus’s tenets, none would have to suffer. I believe this could happen in a capitalist or welfare situation. While it is true that it is as easy for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle as a rich man to get into Heaven, it is still possible. Paul who was one of the greatest Christian haters of his time, turned out to be one of God’s Apostles. If a man rich or poor give his life over to God, he will still receive atonement of his sins. Jesus even said give unto Ceasar which is Ceaser’s and unto God that which is His. Most people of this earth live in situations where it requires money, barter or some sort of credits in order to abide in their society. We will be judged by our hearts, not by our wallets. Just because some churchs are more adorned than others, doesn’t make them any less a place for the Presence of God to reside. It’s the people’s love for God and their willingness to love one another that makes a church. It does happen that some will use their personal agendas to circumvent God’s Will. I know, I’ve seen it. It happened with a pastor of our church that took over from a retiring one. He caused dissent and distrust amongst from fellow parishoners. He even went as far as to try to extricate the church’s holdings in the bank for his own use. He also tried to fire the elders and trustees to try to get control of the church board. The one thing that stopped him was the church’s constitution which stipulated that the new pastor would have a 3 month probationary period which was followed by voting him in or out. This fortunately was decided in court wherein he and his followers were forced by injunction to leave. If that pastor would have bided his time, he could taken over the church and everything that goes with. It was his greed and want of power that stopped that. Unfortunately, some of the long time attendees of the church lost their ability to worship there. A few have come back and asked for forgiveness and were accepted back into the fold. Pride and gullibility can be awful tyrants of the spirit when looking at things without God’s Will for guidance. I look at it as the church going through a ‘cleansing’. People suffered from one man’s desire for money and power, but this was a life lesson hard learned.
Sorry for the late response.
I really don’t like debating these things…I’m sorry I even started.
I just simply cannot accept such things, and they will always stir rotten in my stomach.
I don’t like imposing strong beliefs onto others as to what is right and wrong for them to do religiously or spiritually, so I tend to just stay away from such subject matters.
I seem to have weakened this time and let it slip.
I can only say that I feel nothing but distaste (putting it incredibly politely) for this function of religion, regardless of the justification.
Again, I’m sorry to have tapped into this conversation, as it truly should not involve my perspective on this…for I cannot see this subject objectively and without passion.
TS, if you or others don’t give opinions of their beliefs, then things can not be learned of how others think. If you feel something strongly, then you should should bring it out. For myself, I have (probably as like others) retain my core beliefs, but still want to learn others perspectives so as to get a better picture of how their thinking evolves. I think things should be presented in a well thought out reasoned tone so rational discussions can continue.
We all have justifications of different things in one regard or another. I have found out that my Christian belief system doesn’t align exactly with other fellow Christians i.e. Bob and Felix. I try to listen and respect their viewpoints and sieve through their understanding. Believe it or not I do get upset on the other side of this monitor. I am not a perfect little Christian at all. We all deal with humanity in one form or another. Some thoughts I read here in ILP appear ludicrous to my way of thinking, but then I remember that everyone has different perspectives on everything. I do try my best to not be judgemental or otherwise express those thoughts somethimes, but I do slip up myself.
You have come to your conclusions through your life experiences as I have. Every once in a while we find kindred spirits that reflect our viewpoints. Those are the ones that help us not feel alone in our thinking. I have been told in these forums that Christian beliefs have no bearing in reasoning and rational thought. I don’t believe that. Being told that just bolsters my faith against nay sayers…it doesn’t change my mind. Each day that passes, my faith grows a little stronger. Even if the majority of people in these forums think my logic is clouded in my faith. For me to lose that foothold seems impossible to me. That is not to say my mind does not change from time to time. My core beliefs still hold true once I can see the logic in the thing that has changed my mind. Being rigid in thinking without examining other realms of thought would not be benificial to a Christian. I believe Christ had that ability in His dealings with people during His journeys through life. Yet, I think He held to His core beliefs which gave Him unique insight on how to deal with the human dynamic. I think this what we should all aspire to.
Well…if you really want it, here it is.
I will work from the angle of God, from the Abraham line of religion, as such things like Buddhism are an entirely different discourse.
God has no need for my buildings; he has no need for yours.
They are there for us; not God.
They are there to move us, not God.
It is pathetic to require such a level of inspiration as to require glorification heavily through precious materials.
Are we that dense and numb?
Do we only feel God when surrounded by gold, limestone, and marble?
For those that this is true, I tell you that they will not find peace with God in such a rotten scourge on the Earth!
They should set fire to their holy praises to God!
Once they cry out in anger of that holy place burning, once they thrash and whale about the injustice towards God, they should build for themselves a shack of a place in the poorest part of their town and pray long inside of it.
In this place, I assure you, they will find God; not in the first.
I’ll reiterate:
You cannot build such a place and not deprive yourself of your spiritual well being.
If what you say is true, then being a follower of Christ I wouldn’t feel right in owning a home, car or working to make money to support a family because Jesus didn’t do this either. As I recall in the Old Testament, people who were close to God that owned material things were not called out by God because of. Job who was tested by God, lost his family, holdings and health. After admonishment and reconciliation with God, everything that was taken away was restored. I’m sure there had to be people who were destitute during that time too. Yet job was given all back that taken from him.
If your argument is following the line of having while others suffer or do not have, are we that do suffer spiritually? It seems that it might be a little tough in following a utopial line of non-material possession especially during this point and time. I personally feel blessed with what I have. I would agree that say the Catholic church who supports certain sects of that religion in monasteries who vow poverty, yet reside in fine edifices in Rome feigns hypocrisy, but both keep Jesus at the center of their ideology. If this is counter productive in a spiritual sense, I would just as soon let God Judge their hearts. I certainly would and could not consider that with the many faults I deal with everyday. The best I can do is espouse Jesus’ Love for us all and hope people listen and consider it. Jesus wanted this, plus to act as brother and sister to one another. In doing this and helping where we can when suffering appears, is what I believe Jesus wants from us.
Is alleviating suffering through charity a necessary element of religious belief? They do normally go together but is there a requirement for that?
In Christianity, Islam, Ba’ha’i and other religions derived from Judaism, the real suffering that is feared is eternal in nature. People starving is bad, sure. But if that starvation makes them turn to Jesus/Allah/what-have you, then it is actually a good thing. You can see this sort of disagreement in a lot of secular criticisms of Mother Theresa. She used the vast sums of money she received in ways that were at best suboptimal in treating the physical ailments of those being tended to by her order. But she wasn’t working with these people to cure their diseases or to bring them physical comfort but rather to bring them spiritual enlightenment. And given the antagonistic dualism that marks Catholic thought, things like physical comfort and spiritual enlightenment can even be seen as contradictory in nature. Buddhism has similar structures in place where Buddhism is traditionally practiced. Hindus too.
I think we should also talk about public goods and the value of art. How many loaves of bread is the Sistine Chapel worth? How many gallons of milk is a Lochner alter piece? How many pizzas would you trade for Angkor Wat? People have a need for beauty, to have their aesthetic senses satisfied. Given the public nature of religion, it provides a wonderful vector for public art. Right? The Portrait of Lisa Gherardini, wife of Francesco del Giocondo was a private gift. It was meant to be in some private home somewhere, where only a select few could see it. A Gothic Cathedral, on the other hand, was specifically designed so that everyone, even the lowest beggar, could enter and appreciate its beauty (naturally some exceptions apply but they are actually quite small and have been historically). This is where Soviet minimalism got it wrong. That drabness sucks the joy out of life.
And that has meaning and value.